Grocers and the Organic 'Revolution'

[The Unknown Poster]

I have a friend who is quite overweight.  She got excited about trying a vegan-style "cleanse" where she'd make fruit and veggie smoothies.  She shared this excitement on Facebook.  Most of her "friends" discouraged her from eating "babyfood", starving herself of protein etc etc.  People just dont get it.  I hate to get on the "you're just sheep" bandwagon but far too many people *are* sheep when it comes to what they are told by the media, especially advertising paid for by lobby groups.

 

No mammal but humans drink another mammal's milk.  In recent years, we've finally embraced the health benefits of breastfeeding babies but there was a time when we were basically told not to bother breastfeeding, but make sure you pump your kid full of genetically enhanced, steroid enriched cows milk.

 

As I said read The China Study.  If you want to be a healthy and active 100 year old, you know how to do it.  and its not a western diet.

[Mark H.]

Observations:

 

1. If kids don't drink milk - how do they get enough calcium?  A glass of milk has 30% of your daily calcium requirement. Things like dark green vegetables have only 10 - 12% of your daily requirement per serving.  Good luck getting them to eat that much broccoli. If you use fortified orange juice or calcium supplements, you are probably ingesting animal products.  And yes, I also know kids who are lactose intolerant - they drink goats' milks or specially prepared milk.  

 

2. Vitamin B12 supplements are usually an animal product.  Some are made with natural yeast, but not most.

 

3. I'm a farmer, we spray our crops.  Let's say an organic farmer gets an infestation of army worms or grasshoppers.  They will demolish your crop in a few days or even hours you don't spray them. We had army worm in oats one year.  Even with spraying, that field only averaged 68 bushels per acres, while the rest averaged 110+.  Does an organic farmer just write off that field as a loss for that year?  Funny how we've never heard of that happening.

 

4. Let's you're growing edible corn (corn on the cob).  If you don't spray for worms, must of the crop will be infested with them.  You'd have to throw 80% or more of the crop on the compost heap.  I have seen this happen due to a mistake.  I guess organic farmers  could plant extra to make up for what they'll lose - never heard of that though.

[TrueBlue]

Not organic or dairy, but a good laugh about the other trendy diet these days.

http://m.1043myfm.com/onair/valentine-in-the-morning-45207/watch-kimmel-asks-glutenfree-people-if-12322177

[Mr Dee]

Observations:

 

1. If kids don't drink milk - how do they get enough calcium?  A glass of milk has 30% of your daily calcium requirement. Things like dark green vegetables have only 10 - 12% of your daily requirement per serving.  Good luck getting them to eat that much broccoli. If you use fortified orange juice or calcium supplements, you are probably ingesting animal products.  And yes, I also know kids who are lactose intolerant - they drink goats' milks or specially prepared milk.  

 

2. Vitamin B12 supplements are usually an animal product.  Some are made with natural yeast, but not most.

 

3. I'm a farmer, we spray our crops.  Let's say an organic farmer gets an infestation of army worms or grasshoppers.  They will demolish your crop in a few days or even hours you don't spray them. We had army worm in oats one year.  Even with spraying, that field only averaged 68 bushels per acres, while the rest averaged 110+.  Does an organic farmer just write off that field as a loss for that year?  Funny how we've never heard of that happening.

 

4. Let's you're growing edible corn (corn on the cob).  If you don't spray for worms, must of the crop will be infested with them.  You'd have to throw 80% or more of the crop on the compost heap.  I have seen this happen due to a mistake.  I guess organic farmers  could plant extra to make up for what they'll lose - never heard of that though.

 

First of all let me say thank you for the hard efforts you put forward as a farmer. I mean that.

I cannot imagine a tougher, more frustrating profession than of being a farmer. And yet it can be rewarding, not necessarily in monetary ways, but in watching the fruits of your effort rise before you. 

 

Since I don't know enough about modern day farming to comment properly, I'll leave it to more knowledgable folks like you.

[Logan007]

Observations:

 

1. If kids don't drink milk - how do they get enough calcium?  A glass of milk has 30% of your daily calcium requirement. Things like dark green vegetables have only 10 - 12% of your daily requirement per serving.  Good luck getting them to eat that much broccoli. If you use fortified orange juice or calcium supplements, you are probably ingesting animal products.  And yes, I also know kids who are lactose intolerant - they drink goats' milks or specially prepared milk.  

Regarding this point, I will comment on.  As mentioned before, in countries such as India, Japan, and Peru where average daily calcium intake is a third lower then in North America, the incidence of bone fractures is quite low. Of course, these countries differ in other important bone-health factors as well, such as level of physical activity and amount of sunlight, which could account for their low fracture rates.

 

Now, in order for our bodies to actually absorb calcium properly, there are other vitamins and minerals that need to come into play, such as Vitamin D, Vitamin K, magnesium, etc...  There is no vitamin K in milk, and the Vitamin D that they add to milk is D2, which is less absorble by our bodies then the slightly more expensive D3.  The amount of Magnesium is also relatively small.  So the question is, are you actually absorbing the calcium from milk?

 

Like any other animal derived protein-rich food, milk has a positive potential renal acid load which triggers a protective biological reaction to neutralize all the damaging acidic protein before it reaches the kidneys.  The body is designed for survival, so it sacrifices bone density to protect the kidneys and urinary tract because the latter are essential to survival. And the most readily available source of acid neutralizer is in the bones. So even though milk contains calcium, it ends up sapping your bones of that crucial mineral.  And on this point there is a quote I found from Amy Lanou Ph.D., nutrition director for the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine in Washington, D.C., who states that:

“The countries with the highest rates of osteoporosis are the ones where people drink the most milk and have the most calcium in their diets. The connection between calcium consumption and bone health is actually very weak, and the connection between dairy consumption and bone health is almost nonexistent.”

 

And lastly...cows milk is for baby cows who have 4 stomachs to process this liquid.  I am not a baby cow.

 

FYI, this is all coming from someone who loves milk and still has the occasional pizza and burger with cheese.  I just don't think consuming it on a large scale is necessary.  And if you're going to drink milk, I think it's probably better in its raw state (enzymes and all) as long as the cows you're getting it from are properly checked and made sure there is nothing harmful coming from them.  Unfortunately I don't think this would work on a large scale because the cattle would not end up being properly checked.

 

To me, if I'm going to drink milk, I want it coming from a human woman's boob damnit! 

 

Get plenty of exercise, eat lots of legumes and dark leafy vegetables, some fruits and some meat, and get out in the sun for at least half an hour or more every day, and you should be good to go.

 

Just my .02 cents.

[The Unknown Poster]

I also love milk.  Any question that begins with "but your daily requirement is..." has an inherent issue.  Who says your daily requirement is anything?  The government?  The same government heavily influenced by lobby?  The milk lobby is MASSIVE.

 

I read about a study of a group of people who never ever drank milk.  They all lived long lives without brittle bones.  In fact, some thought is that the increase in brittle bones as we age is because of all the false calcium we drink as kids and young adults.  As we get older, we drink less milk and our body is no longer getting outside sources of calcium and thus taking it from bone, making us brittle.

 

Much of the world is lactose intolerant.  Humans arent meant to drink milk beyond infancy (and our own mother's milk ofcourse, not cows).

 

And by the way, tofu (which I do not like) has more calcium than milk.

[sweep the leg]

Not organic or dairy, but a good laugh about the other trendy diet these days.

http://m.1043myfm.com/onair/valentine-in-the-morning-45207/watch-kimmel-asks-glutenfree-people-if-12322177

My neighbour that I mentioned earlier who went organic has also decided gluten free is the way to go. Cutting it out doesn't do very much for you, and can actually be worse for you if you're still eating the same kinds of food but with the gluten removed.

 

The more I post in this thread the more I'm tempted to walk across the street and punch him in the mouth.

[kelownabomberfan]

You're just showing your ignorance on this topic more and more. There are Vegans who are elite athletes, run marathons, win weight lifting competitions. Some pale kid...give me a break!

LOL - every time I post that story on an internet forum, some angry Vegan bozo responds with crap like this. So you are saying that pale skinny vegan kid who had no energy was just a figment of my buddy's imagination? What a joke. Hey, I am sure there are healthy vegan people somewhere, and even healthy vegan kids, but the adults have to be very careful to ensure those growing kids still get all of the nutrients they need, and I'm sorry but eating a few carrots and a hamburger bun isn't going to do it for a 12 year old boy. They need a lot of calories and protein. And if you don't know what you are doing, and just following some kind of stupid fad to sound cool to your fellow Vegan pals and Yuppie buds then you need to actually do the work so you don't hurt your kids and stunt their growth. That's all I am saying.

[Mr Dee]

………….Somebody here mention carrots?

​……………………….Somebody here mention pale kids?

……Anybody here say relax?

[kelownabomberfan]

My neighbour that I mentioned earlier who went organic has also decided gluten free is the way to go. Cutting it out doesn't do very much for you, and can actually be worse for you if you're still eating the same kinds of food but with the gluten removed.

 

The more I post in this thread the more I'm tempted to walk across the street and punch him in the mouth.

So true.

[Mark H.]

I also love milk.  Any question that begins with "but your daily requirement is..." has an inherent issue.  Who says your daily requirement is anything?  The government?  The same government heavily influenced by lobby?  The milk lobby is MASSIVE.

 

I read about a study of a group of people who never ever drank milk.  They all lived long lives without brittle bones.  In fact, some thought is that the increase in brittle bones as we age is because of all the false calcium we drink as kids and young adults.  As we get older, we drink less milk and our body is no longer getting outside sources of calcium and thus taking it from bone, making us brittle.

 

Much of the world is lactose intolerant.  Humans arent meant to drink milk beyond infancy (and our own mother's milk ofcourse, not cows).

 

And by the way, tofu (which I do not like) has more calcium than milk.

 

Statements such as 'the Government is telling you to do it' or "The xxxx lobby is huge" are also problematic.  If you're going to dwell on that, you'll never eat or drink anything. Because then the food guide is not legitimate, it's just a document used by governments and special lobby groups to promote their own interests.  

 

Let's say you don't trust conventional farming and you think organic farmers are a bunch of con artists.  I guess you can have a garden and some chickens in your backyard, or maybe someday you'd find that perfect food source.

 

You can find a study that will prove whatever you want it to prove.  If you're against immunization you can find sites that will tell you Bill Gates is using vaccines to depopulate the world.

 

The acid test would be: go back to the era where most people in cities didn't drink milk, or drank very little of it.  What were fractures like in that era?

[robynjt]

 

You're just showing your ignorance on this topic more and more. There are Vegans who are elite athletes, run marathons, win weight lifting competitions. Some pale kid...give me a break!

LOL - every time I post that story on an internet forum, some angry Vegan bozo responds with crap like this. So you are saying that pale skinny vegan kid who had no energy was just a figment of my buddy's imagination? What a joke. Hey, I am sure there are healthy vegan people somewhere, and even healthy vegan kids, but the adults have to be very careful to ensure those growing kids still get all of the nutrients they need, and I'm sorry but eating a few carrots and a hamburger bun isn't going to do it for a 12 year old boy. They need a lot of calories and protein. And if you don't know what you are doing, and just following some kind of stupid fad to sound cool to your fellow Vegan pals and Yuppie buds then you need to actually do the work so you don't hurt your kids and stunt their growth. That's all I am saying.

 

 

I do have to say, the most athletic people I know (2 boxers, 1 bodybuilder) are vegan/vegetarian.  It's definitely the people who don't know what they're doing that's the problem.

[blitzmore]

 

You're just showing your ignorance on this topic more and more. There are Vegans who are elite athletes, run marathons, win weight lifting competitions. Some pale kid...give me a break!

LOL - every time I post that story on an internet forum, some angry Vegan bozo responds with crap like this. So you are saying that pale skinny vegan kid who had no energy was just a figment of my buddy's imagination? What a joke. Hey, I am sure there are healthy vegan people somewhere, and even healthy vegan kids, but the adults have to be very careful to ensure those growing kids still get all of the nutrients they need, and I'm sorry but eating a few carrots and a hamburger bun isn't going to do it for a 12 year old boy. They need a lot of calories and protein. And if you don't know what you are doing, and just following some kind of stupid fad to sound cool to your fellow Vegan pals and Yuppie buds then you need to actually do the work so you don't hurt your kids and stunt their growth. That's all I am saying.

 

Not really that's all you're saying! Your bias is showing tremendously! You really don't have a clue what you're talking about, but have convinced yourself that you do. Or you simply don't care, and anytime someone mentions that they chose a different way of eating/living other than yours, you start calling them names like Vegan Bozo. 

 

Hope you have fun going through life with your eyes closed!

[Logan007]

 

You're just showing your ignorance on this topic more and more. There are Vegans who are elite athletes, run marathons, win weight lifting competitions. Some pale kid...give me a break!

LOL - every time I post that story on an internet forum, some angry Vegan bozo responds with crap like this. So you are saying that pale skinny vegan kid who had no energy was just a figment of my buddy's imagination? What a joke. Hey, I am sure there are healthy vegan people somewhere, and even healthy vegan kids, but the adults have to be very careful to ensure those growing kids still get all of the nutrients they need, and I'm sorry but eating a few carrots and a hamburger bun isn't going to do it for a 12 year old boy. They need a lot of calories and protein. And if you don't know what you are doing, and just following some kind of stupid fad to sound cool to your fellow Vegan pals and Yuppie buds then you need to actually do the work so you don't hurt your kids and stunt their growth. That's all I am saying.

 

KBF, first off there's no need to resort to name calling.  No one is coming out and calling you some ignorant uneducated sheep that's programmed to believe whatever TV and the government tell you are they?

 

What some are saying here is that the pale skinny kid with no energy is probably not on the proper vegan diet for children.  As I stated before if you're going to have your children eat vegan you have to do it correctly.  You have to treat it like a science.  You can't be as carefree with it as you can when you're an adult.  And even as an adult you have to watch that you're getting the proper nutrients.  So just because one set of parents aren't doing it right doesn't mean all vegans are like that one child.  You're stereotyping them.  I could come out and say the same thing about idiots that don't care if their kids get their veggies and fruits because their parents bring them to McD's all the time or their parents just don't give a crap about healthy eating.  They're worse then the people who aren't "veganizing" (I just made that up...yes I'm that good) their children properly.  Why don't you ***** about all the fat kids you see running around...or should I say dragging their asses around, because their parents feed them crap, then give them treats all the time, etc...  Wanna get mad at someone, their the group you should be hating on.  Their kids are probably going to die of a heart attack by the time they reach 35.

[Logan007]

 

Not organic or dairy, but a good laugh about the other trendy diet these days.

http://m.1043myfm.com/onair/valentine-in-the-morning-45207/watch-kimmel-asks-glutenfree-people-if-12322177

My neighbour that I mentioned earlier who went organic has also decided gluten free is the way to go. Cutting it out doesn't do very much for you, and can actually be worse for you if you're still eating the same kinds of food but with the gluten removed.

 

The more I post in this thread the more I'm tempted to walk across the street and punch him in the mouth.

 

I think the problem with gluten is that we human beings eat waaaaay too much of it.  Way more then we're supposed to.  Yes, some people are gluten intolerant, but I don't think the people who aren't need to cut it out entirely.  I believe we just need to cut back on eating so much of it.  And eating gluten made from fresh flower as opposed to flower that we leave sitting in our cupboards and on the shelves for months at a time.  That would probably help people out way more then cutting it out.  There is a lot of B vitamins in fresh ground whole husk flower.  Also, too much gluten/carbohydrates can cause inflammation in the body leading to a lot of chronic illnesses, but moderation it is still good for you.

[The Unknown Poster]

I also love milk. Any question that begins with "but your daily requirement is..." has an inherent issue. Who says your daily requirement is anything? The government? The same government heavily influenced by lobby? The milk lobby is MASSIVE.

I read about a study of a group of people who never ever drank milk. They all lived long lives without brittle bones. In fact, some thought is that the increase in brittle bones as we age is because of all the false calcium we drink as kids and young adults. As we get older, we drink less milk and our body is no longer getting outside sources of calcium and thus taking it from bone, making us brittle.

Much of the world is lactose intolerant. Humans arent meant to drink milk beyond infancy (and our own mother's milk ofcourse, not cows).

And by the way, tofu (which I do not like) has more calcium than milk.

Statements such as 'the Government is telling you to do it' or "The xxxx lobby is huge" are also problematic. If you're going to dwell on that, you'll never eat or drink anything. Because then the food guide is not legitimate, it's just a document used by governments and special lobby groups to promote their own interests.

Let's say you don't trust conventional farming and you think organic farmers are a bunch of con artists. I guess you can have a garden and some chickens in your backyard, or maybe someday you'd find that perfect food source.

You can find a study that will prove whatever you want it to prove. If you're against immunization you can find sites that will tell you Bill Gates is using vaccines to depopulate the world.

The acid test would be: go back to the era where most people in cities didn't drink milk, or drank very little of it. What were fractures like in that era?

What a silly post. You don't need to disregard everything. You don't need to believe everything. You can use common sense. The milk lobby is massive. This isn't in doubt. Milk is not good for

You. This isn't on doubt. No animal drinks another animals milk. Use common sense.

You also don't need to build a time machine to be sure. Plenty of the world doesn't drink milk. Plenty of the world is lactose intolerant.

If you like milk, great. Drink it. But if you feed your kids milk don't be surprised when they have health issues.

[kelownabomberfan]

Observations:

 

1. If kids don't drink milk - how do they get enough calcium?  A glass of milk has 30% of your daily calcium requirement. Things like dark green vegetables have only 10 - 12% of your daily requirement per serving.  Good luck getting them to eat that much broccoli. If you use fortified orange juice or calcium supplements, you are probably ingesting animal products.  And yes, I also know kids who are lactose intolerant - they drink goats' milks or specially prepared milk.  

 

2. Vitamin B12 supplements are usually an animal product.  Some are made with natural yeast, but not most.

 

3. I'm a farmer, we spray our crops.  Let's say an organic farmer gets an infestation of army worms or grasshoppers.  They will demolish your crop in a few days or even hours you don't spray them. We had army worm in oats one year.  Even with spraying, that field only averaged 68 bushels per acres, while the rest averaged 110+.  Does an organic farmer just write off that field as a loss for that year?  Funny how we've never heard of that happening.

 

4. Let's you're growing edible corn (corn on the cob).  If you don't spray for worms, must of the crop will be infested with them.  You'd have to throw 80% or more of the crop on the compost heap.  I have seen this happen due to a mistake.  I guess organic farmers  could plant extra to make up for what they'll lose - never heard of that though.

Excellent post Mark. That's why the perfect target market for the organic food industry are urbanites who have no clue about how farming is conducted, or about what happens if you don't spray for bugs/worms/weeds. You end up with no crop. I try and explain that to people, but if they've never spent time on a farm or gone through a growing season they just can't understand it. Such is life.

[kelownabomberfan]

Not really that's all you're saying! Your bias is showing tremendously!

Yup. It is showing tremendously. That's because almost every Vegan I've ever met has been a massive entitled douchebag, who thinks that everything has to be catered to their weird eating habits. I know that's "sterotyping" but such is life. There are no doubt lots of good Veganites out there who aren't entitled douchebags, but unfortunately I've just met a lot of bad ones.

 

You really don't have a clue what you're talking about, but have convinced yourself that you do.

I hope you were looking in the mirror when you typed that.

 

Or you simply don't care, and anytime someone mentions that they chose a different way of eating/living other than yours, you start calling them names like Vegan Bozo. 

 

Hope you have fun going through life with your eyes closed!

Hope you do too! What I really object to with the whole Vegan thing is that I always see veganites and PETA type nutbars crying about how animals shouldn't be farmed or eaten etc. They want to impose their will and their messed up belief system on the rest of us. I guess I'm just a bit worried one day, in the name of "tolerance" or whatever, this actually happens, and suddenly the rest of us are forced into eating their crappy food. I don't care what you eat, and if it makes you feel better, great. Just stop telling me how to live all right? That Paul McCartney has to be one of the most obnoxious ones out there - before a concert he forces everyone on his crew to go off meat. What a pretentious ******!

Anyway - sorry if I ruffled some feathers. If there are some good vegans out there (and you guys are among them) I really would like to meet you in order to get some balance. I also think being in BC is another issue, there just are so many hippy idiots out here it's tough to distinguish between them all.

[kelownabomberfan]

Milk is not good for

You. This isn't on doubt.

I think I doubt this, a lot in fact.

[17to85]

No animal drinks another animals milk.

 

what a ridiculous argument.... how many other animals have the means to actually pull that off? 

[Mr Dee]

Excellent post Mark. That's why the perfect target market for the organic food industry are urbanites who have no clue about how farming is conducted, or about what happens if you don't spray for bugs/worms/weeds. You end up with no crop. I try and explain that to people, but if they've never spent time on a farm or gone through a growing season they just can't understand it. Such is life.

 

 

Farming in Manitoba is a lot different than farming say, in BC.

The climate and the type of bugs is totally different.

Mark obviously has a strong understanding of what he has to do to maintain his crops and his living, but his isn't the only way, and that's what folks n here are trying to say.

 

More info:

 

- "BC has emerged as a leader in Organic farming in Canada with the greatest number of organic farms growing both fruit and vegetables."  - COABC

 

- "organic farmers use quality compost, cover crops (such as nitrogen-rich alfalfa) and crop rotation to nourish soil naturally, and to allow it to rest and regenerate. Plants grown in healthy soil are better able to feed and protect themselves from pests and disease, which means they won’t require heavy applications of fertilizers and pesticides. The expression, “Feed the soil, not the plant” is a familiar refrain among organic farmers." - COABC

 

It's up to all of us to educate ourselves in what we eat, not to lecture others, but to better understand what goes into our food and to understand why others make other choices….yes, even hippies.

 

 

What is Organic Farming?

http://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/aboutorganic/whatis.php

[road griller]

I like melons.

[Mr Dee]

I like melons.

 

And collies….but not together, that's too sad.

[MOBomberFan]

 

No animal drinks another animals milk.

 

what a ridiculous argument.... how many other animals have the means to actually pull that off? 

 

Ants are capable of farming and milking aphids!

[Mark H.]

 

 

I also love milk. Any question that begins with "but your daily requirement is..." has an inherent issue. Who says your daily requirement is anything? The government? The same government heavily influenced by lobby? The milk lobby is MASSIVE.

I read about a study of a group of people who never ever drank milk. They all lived long lives without brittle bones. In fact, some thought is that the increase in brittle bones as we age is because of all the false calcium we drink as kids and young adults. As we get older, we drink less milk and our body is no longer getting outside sources of calcium and thus taking it from bone, making us brittle.

Much of the world is lactose intolerant. Humans arent meant to drink milk beyond infancy (and our own mother's milk ofcourse, not cows).

And by the way, tofu (which I do not like) has more calcium than milk.

Statements such as 'the Government is telling you to do it' or "The xxxx lobby is huge" are also problematic. If you're going to dwell on that, you'll never eat or drink anything. Because then the food guide is not legitimate, it's just a document used by governments and special lobby groups to promote their own interests.

Let's say you don't trust conventional farming and you think organic farmers are a bunch of con artists. I guess you can have a garden and some chickens in your backyard, or maybe someday you'd find that perfect food source.

You can find a study that will prove whatever you want it to prove. If you're against immunization you can find sites that will tell you Bill Gates is using vaccines to depopulate the world.

The acid test would be: go back to the era where most people in cities didn't drink milk, or drank very little of it. What were fractures like in that era?

What a silly post. You don't need to disregard everything. You don't need to believe everything. You can use common sense. The milk lobby is massive. This isn't in doubt. Milk is not good for

You. This isn't on doubt. No animal drinks another animals milk. Use common sense.

You also don't need to build a time machine to be sure. Plenty of the world doesn't drink milk. Plenty of the world is lactose intolerant.

If you like milk, great. Drink it. But if you feed your kids milk don't be surprised when they have health issues.

 

 

Yes, I know some kids who are lactose intolerant.  One broke an arm an due to inadequate calcium.  

 

I realize it's not as cut an dried as I'm making it sound, but if others are arguing from one point of view, so will I.