Grocers and the Organic 'Revolution'

[Mark H.]

Gluten:

 

Might I suggest oatmeal.  It's cheaper and healthier. Oat fields rarely get diseases.  For the organic folks, fewer pesticides are used because it grows so thickly, many weeds are choked out, especially broadleaf weeds.

[Mark H.]

 

Excellent post Mark. That's why the perfect target market for the organic food industry are urbanites who have no clue about how farming is conducted, or about what happens if you don't spray for bugs/worms/weeds. You end up with no crop. I try and explain that to people, but if they've never spent time on a farm or gone through a growing season they just can't understand it. Such is life.

 

 

Farming in Manitoba is a lot different than farming say, in BC.

The climate and the type of bugs is totally different.

Mark obviously has a strong understanding of what he has to do to maintain his crops and his living, but his isn't the only way, and that's what folks n here are trying to say.

 

More info:

 

- "BC has emerged as a leader in Organic farming in Canada with the greatest number of organic farms growing both fruit and vegetables."  - COABC

 

- "organic farmers use quality compost, cover crops (such as nitrogen-rich alfalfa) and crop rotation to nourish soil naturally, and to allow it to rest and regenerate. Plants grown in healthy soil are better able to feed and protect themselves from pests and disease, which means they won’t require heavy applications of fertilizers and pesticides. The expression, “Feed the soil, not the plant” is a familiar refrain among organic farmers." - COABC

 

It's up to all of us to educate ourselves in what we eat, not to lecture others, but to better understand what goes into our food and to understand why others make other choices….yes, even hippies.

 

 

What is Organic Farming?

http://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/aboutorganic/whatis.php

 

 

Indeed, legumes are great.  We raise alfalfa, soybeans, and edible beans.  Maybe peas at some point. The reduction in fertilizer input and run-off pollution risk is dramatic.  Soil sampling has proven that many times.

 

We do have fields that have not experienced a major pest problem for a long time - due to crop rotation, burning, cultivation and other strategies.  But when it happens, you spray the pest or kiss your crop good-bye.  

 

The rate of spraying depends on many factors.  For example, if you have a wet fall, you can't cultivate your fields as much as you'd like.  Then you'll have more weeds the following spring.  If you have sandy soil where zero tillage is the norm, you will have more weeds.   

 

For the whole world to farm organically, the price of food would inevitably rise.  Why?  Because the farming industry would need more employees.  This is a chronic problem already.  Just ask fruit and vegetable growers who hire Mexicans every summer.  Just ask a dairy farmer trying to hire someone for 4 AM milking (yeah, yeah milk sucks)

[The Unknown Poster]

Milk is not good for

You. This isn't on doubt.

I think I doubt this, a lot in fact.

You'd be wrong. And I like milk more than just about anybody.

Also while tree hugging d bags annoys me I know many vegans who are awesome people, my gf included.

Usually in groups, when the subject comes up it's the anti-vegans who are rude and ignorant not the other way around.

[road griller]

The only adult mammal that drinks milk are humans. Water works well for others. Of course their diets are proper.

[Mark H.]

 

 

Milk is not good for

You. This isn't on doubt.

I think I doubt this, a lot in fact.

You'd be wrong. And I like milk more than just about anybody.

 

 

There seem to be two main issues that are brought up about milk:

 

a) People have researched it and found it harmful to humans, due to its protein composition.  Mainstream healthcare professionals do not endorse this point of view.  Nor do mainstream medical websites.

 

We're the only species that drink the milk of another species.  Not exactly true.  Pets and farm animals consume plenty of milk and milk by-products.  Also, are there really any foods that are pre-ordained for human consumption?

 

c) It's my understanding that Asian countries don't consume a lot of milk.  Asian women have one of the highest rates of osteoperosis in the world.

 

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/osteoporosis/basics/definition/CON-20019924

[road griller]

Pets and farm animals are being fed milk by humans. In their natural habitat they would drink water when mature, along with their proper diet.

Like Arnie once said, milk is for babies, I drink beer...

[The Unknown Poster]

You have to be careful with "mainstream" sources.  Im not a big "government is out to get us" type of guy but lobby groups are very insidious.  Milk is a huge and powerful lobby.  Read The China Study.  Thats really all I can say.

 

There are sort of two debates really.  The "dont drink milk at all, its not meant for humans" argument (which is true) and the "if you're going to drink, absolutely dont drink milk bought from the grocery store" (which is more true).  One thought as to why kids are aving so many problems is the amount of steroids and hormones in our food, including milk.  I used to drink 3-4 litres of milk a day.  I loved it.  Im not anti-milk.  But I also used to drink 2 lires of Dr Pepper a day because I loved it.  But I know enough to know there is absolutely no reason to drink soda.  Just as there is absolutely no reason to drink milk.

 

But again, you have to be smart about it.  Its like the people that say "dont be an idiot, ofcourse you need meat.  How else will you get your protein?"  You have to find other sources for the things we as humans need.  But again, not everything "they" tell us we need is actually something we need.  Excess calcium, well, the jury is out in my opinion. 

[Atomic]

Your research can't stop with The China Study. Your first impulse after reading a book like that should be to seek out the criticisms of it to see how well the facts hold up. Don't take one guy's word for it... challenge it. There are plenty of critics of The China Study out there, just do a Google search. Reading one book and accepting it as some kind of nutrition gospel is just a terrible idea.

[The Unknown Poster]

Your research can't stop with The China Study. Your first impulse after reading a book like that should be to seek out the criticisms of it to see how well the facts hold up. Don't take one guy's word for it... challenge it. There are plenty of critics of The China Study out there, just do a Google search. Reading one book and accepting it as some kind of nutrition gospel is just a terrible idea.

Yes and I didnt say that, did I?

 

But a good study + common sense will lead you to a good path.  If anyone tells you you need to drink Milk, stop listening to them.  If anyone tells you you need to eat meat, stop listening to them.  This isnt very complicated.  Its rather simple actually.  Common sense will reveal a lot.

[Atomic]

Funny how in your mind, your opinion = common sense.

To me, common sense is that you should eat a balanced diet. I eat meat, dairy, grains, and lots of fruits and vegetables. I am in perfect health, so I'm going to keep eating that way. That's common sense. Reading a book and accepting it as the basis for your new lifestyle is not common sense. It is being easily swayed by a guy with some numbers that try to say that correlation = causation. Again, search google and find the critics of the China Study. It is blatantly obvious that it is a flawed study.

[Mark H.]

Pets and farm animals are being fed milk by humans. In their natural habitat they would drink water when mature, along with their proper diet.

Like Arnie once said, milk is for babies, I drink beer...

 

Why does that logic not extend to beer?  Aren't we the only species that drinks it?

 

Scotch is another matter entirely...

[road griller]

That dog in Strange Brew drank a lot of beer. His name was Shithead iirc.

And he could fly!!!

[The Unknown Poster]

Funny how in your mind, your opinion = common sense.

To me, common sense is that you should eat a balanced diet. I eat meat, dairy, grains, and lots of fruits and vegetables. I am in perfect health, so I'm going to keep eating that way. That's common sense. Reading a book and accepting it as the basis for your new lifestyle is not common sense. It is being easily swayed by a guy with some numbers that try to say that correlation = causation. Again, search google and find the critics of the China Study. It is blatantly obvious that it is a flawed study.

I rather enjoy that you're entire take away from this thread is "someone disagrees with me = they read one book and are blindly accepting it".  Try to think a little bit harder than that.  If you cant eat ultra healthy, then yes a "balanced" diet is the way to go.  But there is a far more optimum way to eat and be healthy that involves no meat or dairy.  It requires effort to gain the required nutirients and it requires discipline.  But its THE best way to eat and live (along with being physically fit). 

 

But you can pretend a "balanced" diet of dairy and meat is better for you.

 

And Im not being malicious in saying that.  Its simply true that most people dont want to read or use common sense in accepting that the western diet is all wrong for humans.  I love dairy.  I love meat.  My gf is a vegan.  But I am not simply because, despite knowledge and opportunity, I havent put forth the effort to eat in a way i KNOW is far better for me.  But 90% of the time I dont eat dairy (and unless Im treating myself to a cookie, I NEVER drink milk, the dairy I do eat occasionally is in the form of cheese) and 99% of the time I dont drink soda (aside: I have two friends that have been trying to eat "healthier" but cant stop sucking back coke...I just shake my head - easiest "healthy choice" you can possibly make is to stop drinking soda, even diet which is bad in a different way).  I DO like meat and try to keep it to white meat but such is life.

 

Knowing and doing are two different things.  You certainly cant do if you dont know. 

[kelownabomberfan]

No animal drinks another animals milk.

what a ridiculous argument.... how many other animals have the means to actually pull that off?

raccoons would drink rabbit milk if they could, raccoons are sneaky.

[kelownabomberfan]

Pets and farm animals are being fed milk by humans. In their natural habitat they would drink water when mature, along with their proper diet.

Like Arnie once said, milk is for babies, I drink beer...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXLJJ5XAKqw

[kelownabomberfan]

Usually in groups, when the subject comes up it's the anti-vegans who are rude and ignorant not the other way around.

Well then we should get the vegan douchebags I know together with the anti-vegan douchebags and perhaps we can find a way to bridge the gap to peace and understanding. It's the whole "meat is murder" crowd that bugs me to no end. Unfortunately, my 18 year old niece has been radicalized by some loser teacher of hers, and now every family gathering we have to listen to why we are such terrible people for cutting into a turkey or a ham. On Christmas morning, as I'm enjoying a delicious pile of bacon, she proceeded to tell me that the pig I am eating had a family too, and that I should be ashamed for eating him. I asked her who filled her head with this garbage, and that's where I found out about her nutty teacher. So I told her that I grew up on a hog farm in Niverville so I knew a thing or two about pigs, and how if we didn't separate the piglets from the sow and the sire boar there was about a 95% chance that that pig would have been devoured by its own family in its first two days of life. Apparently her teacher hadn't told her that part of the pig story, instead kids are taught that animals are basically humans and their existence is similar to a Disney movie, and since most of them will never visit a barn or farm in their lives, they just eat it up, pun intended. Anyway, after being laughed at a lot, by everyone, the niece has toned down the anti-meat nuttiness a bit, thank goodness.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

No animal drinks another animals milk.

 

what a ridiculous argument.... how many other animals have the means to actually pull that off? 

 

Sorry...no other mammal drinks their own mothers milk beyond infancy either.  Is that better for you?  Milk = bad.  The "calcium" you get from milk does not outweight the health detriments to drinking it.  Especially the crap they sell that they call milk which is loaded with steroids, drugs and hormones.  Mlik is tasty.  But it isnt good.

[Logan007]

Regarding the China Study.  I, who reads a lot about health and nutrition...and I mean A LOT, don't completely agree with it.  There are a lot of things that "sound" right about the study when you read it, but when you start to think about the technical aspects and then do some research, it just doesn't add up.  Not only that, but talk to a Chinese person.  They may not eat red meat from cows, but they do eat pork, chicken, turtle, snake and fish amongst other things I don't really want to mention that are weird.  They are not vegetarians.

 

There are better books out there to read that are more sensible and true.  If you want to be a vegetarian or vegan, great, but don't base it off of this book.

[kelownabomberfan]

Especially the crap they sell that they call milk which is loaded with steroids, drugs and hormones.  Mlik is tasty.  But it isnt good.

I grew up drinking milk straight from the cow, and it definitely tasted better than what is sold in stores, that's for sure. We'd have friends visit us from Calgary, and they'd bring store-bought milk because they hated the taste of our straight from the cow stuff. It was also extremely rich, as we just skimmed off the cream, so it was probably like drinking homo milk x 2.

[The Unknown Poster]

Regarding the China Study.  I, who reads a lot about health and nutrition...and I mean A LOT, don't completely agree with it.  There are a lot of things that "sound" right about the study when you read it, but when you start to think about the technical aspects and then do some research, it just doesn't add up.  Not only that, but talk to a Chinese person.  They may not eat red meat from cows, but they do eat pork, chicken, turtle, snake and fish amongst other things I don't really want to mention that are weird.  They are not vegetarians.

 

There are better books out there to read that are more sensible and true.  If you want to be a vegetarian or vegan, great, but don't base it off of this book.

I lent my copy to someone and never got it back so Im going from memory.  I AGREE that one should not read ONE book and take it as fact.  But The China Study IS a great eye opener for people who are closed minded about its subject matter.  It should be the beginning of enlightenment not the sum total.

 

If I recall the study ended up focuses on (or was triggered by) a specific group of Chinese that, for many generations, lived off the land and had remarkable longevity, looked much younger and only ever died of "natural" old age, not all Chinese.  But again, its been a long time since I read it.  To be honest I found some of it dry and it prompted me to read other things in books and online.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

Especially the crap they sell that they call milk which is loaded with steroids, drugs and hormones.  Mlik is tasty.  But it isnt good.

I grew up drinking milk straight from the cow, and it definitely tasted better than what is sold in stores, that's for sure. We'd have friends visit us from Calgary, and they'd bring store-bought milk because they hated the taste of our straight from the cow stuff. It was also extremely rich, as we just skimmed off the cream, so it was probably like drinking homo milk x 2.

 

No doubt.  When you know whats in "store" milk, its disgusting. 

 

Dr Walter Willett is a professor at Harvard Medical School at the chair of the department of nutrition.  Here are some of his remarks concerning milk (presented by and with commentary from Dr Mark Hyman):

 

 

The Truth about Dairy

According to Dr. Willett, who has done many studies and reviewed the research on this topic, there are many reasons to pass up milk, including:

1. Milk doesn't reduce fractures.(i) Contrary to popular belief, eating dairy products has never been shown to reduce fracture risk. In fact, according to the Nurses' Health Study dairy may increase risk of fractures by 50 percent!

2. Less dairy, better bones. Countries with lowest rates of dairy and calcium consumption (like those in Africa and Asia) have the lowest rates of osteoporosis.

3. Calcium isn't as bone-protective as we thought.(ii) Studies of calcium supplementation have shown no benefit in reducing fracture risk. Vitamin D appears to be much more important than calcium in preventing fractures.

4. Calcium may raise cancer risk. Research shows that higher intakes of both calcium and dairy products may increase a man's risk of prostate cancer by 30 to 50 percent.(iii) Plus, dairy consumption increases the body's level of insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) -- a known cancer promoter.

5. Calcium has benefits that dairy doesn't. Calcium supplements, but not dairy products, may reduce the risk of colon cancer.(iv)

6. Not everyone can stomach dairy.(v) About 75 percent of the world's population is genetically unable to properly digest milk and other dairy products -- a problem called lactose intolerance.

 

Based on such findings, Dr. Willet has come to some important conclusions:

 

• Everybody needs calcium -- but probably not as much as our government's recommended daily allowance (RDA) and calcium from diet, including greens and beans is better utilized by the body with less risk than calcium supplements.

• Calcium probably doesn't prevent broken bones. Few people in this country are likely to reduce their fracture risk by getting more calcium.

• Men may not want to take calcium supplements. Supplements of calcium and vitamin D may be reasonable for women.

• Dairy may be unhealthy. Advocating dairy consumption may have negative effects on health.

If all that isn't enough to swear you off milk, there are a few other scientific findings worth noting. The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) recently asked the UDSA to look into the scientific basis of the claims made in the "milk mustache" ads. Their panel of scientists stated the truth clearly:

• Milk doesn't benefit sports performance.

• There's no evidence that dairy is good for your bones or prevents osteoporosis -- in fact, the animal protein it contains may help cause bone loss!

• Dairy is linked to prostate cancer.

• It's full of saturated fat and is linked to heart disease.

• Dairy causes digestive problems for the 75 percent of people with lactose intolerance.

• Dairy aggravates irritable bowel syndrome.

 

Simply put, the FTC asked the dairy industry, "Got Proof?" -- and the answer was NO!

 

Plus, dairy may contribute to even more health problems, like:

• Allergies (vi)

• Sinus problems

• Ear infections

• Type 1 diabetes (vii)

• Chronic constipation (viii)

• Anemia (in children)

 

Due to these concerns, many have begun to consider raw milk an alternative. But that isn't really a healthy form of dairy either ...

Yes, raw, whole, organic milk eliminates concerns like pesticides, hormones, antibiotics, and the effects of homogenization and pasteurization -- but to me, these benefits don't outweigh dairy's potential risks.

From an evolutionary point of view, milk is a strange food for humans. Until 10,000 years ago we didn't domesticate animals and weren't able to drink milk (unless some brave hunter-gather milked a wild tiger or buffalo!).

 

If you don't believe that, consider this: The majority of humans naturally stop producing significant amounts of lactase - the enzyme needed to properly metabolize lactose, the sugar in milk -- sometime between the ages of two and five. In fact, for most mammals, the normal condition is to stop producing the enzymes needed to properly digest and metabolize milk after they have been weaned.

 

Our bodies just weren't made to digest milk on a regular basis. Instead, most scientists agree that it's better for us to get calcium, potassium, protein, and fats from other food sources, like whole plant foods -- vegetables, fruits, beans, whole grains, nuts, seeds, and seaweed.

 

So here is my advice for dealing with dairy.

6 Tips for Dealing with Dairy

• Take your Cow for a Walk. It will do you much more good than drinking milk.

• Don't rely on dairy for healthy bones. If you want healthy bones, get plenty of exercise and supplement with 2,000 IU of vitamin D daily.

• Get your calcium from food. These include dark green leafy vegetables, sesame tahini, sea vegetables, and sardines or salmon with the bones.

• Try giving up all dairy. That means eliminate milk, cheese, yogurt, and ice cream for two weeks and see if you feel better. You should notice improvements with your sinuses, post-nasal drip, headaches, irritable bowel syndrome, energy, and weight. Then start eating dairy again and see how you feel. If you feel worse, you should try to give it up for life.

 

• If you can tolerate dairy, use only raw, organic dairy products. I suggest focusing on fermented products like unsweetened yogurt and kefir, occasionally.

• If you have to feed your child formula from milk, don't worry. The milk in infant formula is hydrolyzed or broken down and easier to digest (although it can still cause allergies). Once your child is a year old, switch him or her to real food and almond milk.

Still got milk? I hope not! Remember, dairy is not crucial for good health. I encourage you to go dairy-free and see what it does for you

 

***Now we can all go online and find people to say the opposite, thats why common sense must come into play.  The USDA food reccomendations are made by a panel that contains lobbyists from the industries.  Its perfectly okay for someone to say they enjoy milk so they will drink it but the legitimate evidence is that its not good for you and humans werent meant to drink it.

[Atomic]

Amazing that the debate rages on amongst nutritionists, doctors, scientists, and others, but here we have The Unknown Poster telling us that he "knows THE optimum way to eat" to achieve long life, fitness, etc. Your words, not mine. Maybe you need to open your eyes and realize that the milk lobby isn't the only group peddling lies.

[Logan007]

 

Well then we should get the vegan douchebags I know together with the anti-vegan douchebags and perhaps we can find a way to bridge the gap to peace and understanding. It's the whole "meat is murder" crowd that bugs me to no end. Unfortunately, my 18 year old niece has been radicalized by some loser teacher of hers, and now every family gathering we have to listen to why we are such terrible people for cutting into a turkey or a ham. On Christmas morning, as I'm enjoying a delicious pile of bacon, she proceeded to tell me that the pig I am eating had a family too, and that I should be ashamed for eating him. I asked her who filled her head with this garbage, and that's where I found out about her nutty teacher. So I told her that I grew up on a hog farm in Niverville so I knew a thing or two about pigs, and how if we didn't separate the piglets from the sow and the sire boar there was about a 95% chance that that pig would have been devoured by its own family in its first two days of life. Apparently her teacher hadn't told her that part of the pig story, instead kids are taught that animals are basically humans and their existence is similar to a Disney movie, and since most of them will never visit a barn or farm in their lives, they just eat it up, pun intended. Anyway, after being laughed at a lot, by everyone, the niece has toned down the anti-meat nuttiness a bit, thank goodness.

 

Yeah this bugs me a lot too.  If you want to be vegan or vegetarian for your health, then go for it, but enough with the sob story on us killing animals.  Killing for sport pisses me off, and is the reason we have so many endangered species in the world.  I also hate the way some companies slaughter animals in the plant and practically torture the animal...if you're going to kill something don't torture it, make it quick and painless.  I've seen video's of the way they start cutting into the animal while it's still alive cause their too cheap to kill the thing first.  That really makes me want to shove something sharp up that company's anal cavity.

 

But killing to eat the meat and use it's hide for clothing...that's been in practice for thousands of years.  The natives were the best at it as they used every piece of the animal, and to me that's the right way to do it.

[kelownabomberfan]

Amazing that the debate rages on amongst nutritionists, doctors, scientists, and others, but here we have The Unknown Poster telling us that he "knows THE optimum way to eat" to achieve long life, fitness, etc. Your words, not mine. Maybe you need to open your eyes and realize that the milk lobby isn't the only group peddling lies.

I know one thing is true, one hundred years from now humans will look back at us, all of us I am certain, and be amazed at the food we eat today and how little we really knew about it, even with thousands of years of anecdotal evidence. Just like we look at the Romans now and know why a lot of their leaders were nuts, they were drinking water piped in with lead pipes, and were ingesting huge quantities of lead, which fried their brains.

[The Unknown Poster]

Amazing that the debate rages on amongst nutritionists, doctors, scientists, and others, but here we have The Unknown Poster telling us that he "knows THE optimum way to eat" to achieve long life, fitness, etc. Your words, not mine. Maybe you need to open your eyes and realize that the milk lobby isn't the only group peddling lies.

LOL

 

The debate "rages on"?  I dont think so.  *maybe* you could say there is a raging debate about climate change but nutrition?  Every book or article I have ever read, every health "nut" I have ever talked to, the VAST majority are all in agreement about THE optimum healthy way to live.  No one ever says you SHOULD eat cheeseburgers and fries every day.  No one makes that argument.  I see the "debate" split into three factions:  the majority of mainstream experts in the middle, who tailor their message to the masses by imploring "balance" with a focus on fruits, veggies, whole grains etc.  These people will tell you "anything in moderation" because they know the AVERAGE person simply cant eat an optimum human diet (I know I can't).  Then you have the vast minority who are impacted by lobbyists who actually tell you lies like DRINK MILK AND IT WILL MAKE YOU BIG AND STRONG.  This is an untrue message.  Then you have another group, probably a minority, that pushes the OPTIMUM diet.  This is for people who are ultra serious about their health and diet with the desire and self control to live it.

 

But dont tell me there is a raging debate about nutrition.

 

And also, if you dont like the message, attacking the messenger is the classic response. bravo to you.