Grocers and the Organic 'Revolution'

[The Unknown Poster]

 

 

 

 

 

 I dont care if you drink milk, get cancer and die.  I dont know you

 

 

 

But hey, if you disagree with me, just insult me!  lol

 

Let's not play the hurt feelings game. Saying you don't care if somebody gets cancer and dies was my basis for calling you angry. If you're not angry it must mean you're just an ***hole.

 

No, I said I didnt wish that on anyone.  But if I hear that someone I dont know, never met etc got cancer and died, the only emotional response Im having is one of "I dont wish that on anyone".  Not caring was a poor choice of words.  I care about all humans to different degrees.  It wouldnt emotionally impact me, is what I meant. 

[17to85]

I'm not taking any position, I'm just saying your argument sucks. 

[The Unknown Poster]

I'm not taking any position, I'm just saying your argument sucks. 

Atomic's?  Cause my argument isnt my argument.  Its the argument of many doctor's, scientists and nutritionists.  Although it does suck that milk is unhealthy. 

[road griller]

Drink milk or not I don't care. I just don't like it so I don't. But to say we need it or even that it is important to us is just wrong IMO. Water, and lots of it is all we need to drink.

As far as our food goes it all sucks and we all do horrible things to our bodies. The good news is modern medicine lets us get away with it for the most part. A pill for everything baby!

[Atomic]

I'm not taking any position, I'm just saying your argument sucks.

Atomic's? Cause my argument isnt my argument. Its the argument of many doctor's, scientists and nutritionists. Although it does suck that milk is unhealthy.

Many doctors, scientists, and nutritionists take the opposite position. This is undeniable.

The mistake you're making is that you believe that your position is unanimously supported by doctors, etc, which is obviously untrue. And you are claiming that any of those professionals who disagree are just part of the milk lobby or whatever your position is on them.

[TrueBlue]

Appreciate an active and lively debate, but I have to say this is all just rhetoric blabber. At the end of the day, everyone's stance will continue to be the same.  Granted this all makes good conversation, but I have advice for anyone here if they ever want to sit down with me and try to convince me of something: Don't waste your breath.

 

We all choose to follow and believe what our minds have convinced us is right for us. People will live their lives, some in happiness, some in paranoia.  Some will live to 90, others to 55.  All the reports and studies and research in the world can lead you to believe anything if you choose to accept it.  People can form educated debates on either side of anything and argue for years on why something is bad or something is good.  Just choose what side you’re on, and then let others make their own decisions based on what’s relevant to them. 

 

It’s a crapshoot anyway you look at it.  Damned if you do, and damned if you don’t until the day you die.  

[The Unknown Poster]

 

 

I'm not taking any position, I'm just saying your argument sucks.

Atomic's? Cause my argument isnt my argument. Its the argument of many doctor's, scientists and nutritionists. Although it does suck that milk is unhealthy.

Many doctors, scientists, and nutritionists take the opposite position. This is undeniable.

The mistake you're making is that you believe that your position is unanimously supported by doctors, etc, which is obviously untrue. And you are claiming that any of those professionals who disagree are just part of the milk lobby or whatever your position is on them.

 

This is incorrect.

 

Please show me many doctors, scientists or nutritionists that say we as humans need meat and milk to be healthy.  You yourself admitted that was not the case.  You're confusing your like for milk with disagreeing with my position.

 

My position is:

 

- Milk is unhealthy.  There *might* be a debate about the health benefits to milk insofar as calcium but outside of the government food guide which *is* heavily influenced by lobbyists, I've yet to see any doctor state that we need milk to be healthy.  Most doctors will subscribe to the Message to the Masses, which is "everything in moderation" and even then, most will tell you milk needs to be moderated.  And even then most will admit the steroids and hormones that go into our modern general supply of milk is not healthy

 

- Humans dont need milk & meat to be healthy

 

- the optimum diet for humans is fruits, veggies, whole grains.

 

That's my position.  Your position is that milk & meat can be eaten in moderation as part of a healty diet.  I agreed with that insofar that many many things that we would all agree are unhealthy or needless can be eaten in moderation as part of an other wise healthy diet.

 

As for unanimous support, Im not sure anything exists which has 100% support, no matter how obvious it is.

[17to85]

 

I'm not taking any position, I'm just saying your argument sucks. 

Atomic's?  Cause my argument isnt my argument.  Its the argument of many doctor's, scientists and nutritionists.  Although it does suck that milk is unhealthy. 

 

No you're argument for why you are right. It's a terrible argument which basically boils do to you screaming "NUH UH!!!!! USE COMMON SENSE *******!!!1111!!!!one!!!"

 

You aren't interested in hearing opposing viewpoints you're convinced you are correct and will shout down anything contrary to your opinion. 

 

That's what makes it a terrible argument. 

 

Again, I'm not taking sides in this, I don't care enough about it to bother, but I know when an argument is bullshit and when it isn't and you are too closed minded to ever have a proper debate on the topic. 

[The Unknown Poster]

Appreciate an active and lively debate, but I have to say this is all just rhetoric blabber. At the end of the day, everyone's stance will continue to be the same.  Granted this all makes good conversation, but I have advice for anyone here if they ever want to sit down with me and try to convince me of something: Don't waste your breath.

 

We all choose to follow and believe what our minds have convinced us is right for us. People will live their lives, some in happiness, some in paranoia.  Some will live to 90, others to 55.  All the reports and studies and research in the world can lead you to believe anything if you choose to accept it.  People can form educated debates on either side of anything and argue for years on why something is bad or something is good.  Just choose what side you’re on, and then let others make their own decisions based on what’s relevant to them. 

 

It’s a crapshoot anyway you look at it.  Damned if you do, and damned if you don’t until the day you die.  

I agree.  And I am certainly not taking part in this debate to try and convince anyone of anything.  As I freely stated, I do NOT adhere to what I consider the best diet for humans.  Im far too weak.  I love my meat and cheese too much. 

 

Most of my posts are actually correcting the words that others are trying to put in my mouth when in fact, I never made such statements.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

 

I'm not taking any position, I'm just saying your argument sucks. 

Atomic's?  Cause my argument isnt my argument.  Its the argument of many doctor's, scientists and nutritionists.  Although it does suck that milk is unhealthy. 

 

No you're argument for why you are right. It's a terrible argument which basically boils do to you screaming "NUH UH!!!!! USE COMMON SENSE *******!!!1111!!!!one!!!"

 

You aren't interested in hearing opposing viewpoints you're convinced you are correct and will shout down anything contrary to your opinion. 

 

That's what makes it a terrible argument. 

 

Again, I'm not taking sides in this, I don't care enough about it to bother, but I know when an argument is bullshit and when it isn't and you are too closed minded to ever have a proper debate on the topic. 

 

Uhhh...hmmmm.  Its difficult to respond to such nonsense.  I assume you read one post you didnt like and used that as the basis to form an incorrect opinion of the entire discussion.  That is unfortunate.  Please, show me where I said anything close to what you wrote.  I believe Im the only who has engaged in an debate that provided evidence to back up my position actually.  But hey, if you disagree, just make stuff up.  Im the most open-minded person here so far.

[17to85]

see there you go again, falling into the fallacy that because you have an uncommon opinion you're open minded. It doesn't work that way. I've read the whole thread, I know what's going on, trouble is when people close their minds they tend to do a lot of self affirmation as well. You see things as you want to see them. 

[kelownabomberfan]

I like meat because I find it tastes incredibly good. Nothing better than a really nice rib-eye with some decent Cab Sav. That's living, I tell's ya. I don't think I could survive in a meat-less world actually, it would be a hardship too much to bear. But that's just me. Mr. "O Positive".

Paul McCartney started a phrase that I hear a lot of PETA people use "one visit to a slaughterhouse will make you a vegetarian for life". Ha - I'm living proof that that stupid phrase isn't true.

[Logan007]

I like meat because I find it tastes incredibly good. Nothing better than a really nice rib-eye with some decent Cab Sav. That's living, I tell's ya. I don't think I could survive in a meat-less world actually, it would be a hardship too much to bear. But that's just me. Mr. "O Positive".

SHUT UP!!!!  You're making me hungry right around supper time for something that my wife is not making!  I'm type A...suppose to be a vegetarian I think.  I like meat too much.

 

We were just having a discussion today about Dairy Delight fatboys.  I gotta stop talking about food.

[sweep the leg]

Funny timing...

 

I was watching last night's Daily Show on pvr and their was a segment on New York's state senate. One senator tried to pass a bill making yogurt the official state snack. Another senator tried to kill it b/c she said some New Yorkers are lactose intolerant,

 

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-cant-stop-watching-amazing-ny-debate-over-yogurt/

[road griller]

I would eat a hotdog IN the wiener factory. Especially the European one. Is it in France?

[kelownabomberfan]

More on the blood type thing, if anyone cares:

According to the blood type diet theory, people with Type A blood (39% of the population) are best off as vegetarians, while people with Type O (46% of the population) are natural born meat eaters. Type B’s (11% of the population) are somewhere in the middle. Simple and clear cut? The problem is the theory is based on shaky science.

http://veg.ca/2005/11/11/the-blood-type-diet/

[Fraser]

I like meat because I find it tastes incredibly good. Nothing better than a really nice rib-eye with some decent Cab Sav. That's living, I tell's ya. I don't think I could survive in a meat-less world actually, it would be a hardship too much to bear. But that's just me. Mr. "O Positive".

Paul McCartney started a phrase that I hear a lot of PETA people use "one visit to a slaughterhouse will make you a vegetarian for life". Ha - I'm living proof that that stupid phrase isn't true.

If people feel there are some health benefits to being a vegetarian I don't really agree but respect the thought process.

Drives me nuts though when people pretend their lifestyle is more morally acceptable.

Regardless of whether you eat them directly or not animals stills die to support your lifestle.

[Mark H.]

 

I like meat because I find it tastes incredibly good. Nothing better than a really nice rib-eye with some decent Cab Sav. That's living, I tell's ya. I don't think I could survive in a meat-less world actually, it would be a hardship too much to bear. But that's just me. Mr. "O Positive".

Paul McCartney started a phrase that I hear a lot of PETA people use "one visit to a slaughterhouse will make you a vegetarian for life". Ha - I'm living proof that that stupid phrase isn't true.

If people feel there are some health benefits to being a vegetarian I don't really agree but respect the thought process.

Drives me nuts though when people pretend their lifestyle is more morally acceptable.

Regardless of whether you eat them directly or not animals stills die to support your lifestle.

 

 

The survival of the entire planet is based on living things eating other living things.  If anyone is looking some kind of moral high ground, there are better places to look.

[Mr Dee]

[The Unknown Poster]

see there you go again, falling into the fallacy that because you have an uncommon opinion you're open minded. It doesn't work that way. I've read the whole thread, I know what's going on, trouble is when people close their minds they tend to do a lot of self affirmation as well. You see things as you want to see them. 

 

I see things in a very logical way.  If I engage in a discussion with someone, its almost never personal to me.  its almost never a scenario where I'm angry.  I just dont work that way.  But if I qualify my position by explaining that I love milk and meat, used to embrace the "common" belief that we need both to be healty and then changed that position based on reading several books, studies etc and the person(s) Im discussing it back up their position by saying "yeah but I like milk", then Im not being closed minded by dismissing their position.  Because it's not a real position.  Its an opinion with little in the way of logic, common sense or science backing it up.

 

Also, the vast majority of counter pounts to anything I wrote was either putting words in my mouth or attacking me, not debating my position.  Anytime I summarized my position in a very clear and logical way and in such a way that most people were probably close to agreeing, those posts were ignored.  Because its more fun for people to whine and argue on a message board then it is to work towards consensus.

 

So in closing:

 

- I love milk and meat (had both this weekend)

 

- Humans don't *need* either Milk or meat (the nutritional benefit to both are readily available elseware)

 

- the health drawbacks to milk (especially common store bough milk) far outweigh the positive health benefits which only ammount to calcium which...

 

- ...the only real health benefit to Milk is calcium and the *debate* is whether we need calcium to that degree or not.  I cant take a position on it (though I feel that we dont) but there debate is too large to say which side is correct.  And ofcourse, if we do need calcium, we can get it elseware.

 

- none of this changes the fact that I enjoy milk.  I just rarely drink it because of the negative health implications.

 

- I dont believe there is a debate at all about Milk.  Like I posted several times, if you read anything about dairy or ask any doctor and discount the crazies on both sides of the spectrum, you will get X amount that say "no, dont have dairy" and X amount that say "everything in moderation" but you wont find any that say "yes, you need to have milk to be healthy".  Thus, there is no debate.

 

But I enjoy the discussion.  But accusing me of being closed minded is attacking the messenger when you have nothing to say about the message. If I was closed minded I wouldnt have enjoyed the tall glass of delicious milk I had last night.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

 

I like meat because I find it tastes incredibly good. Nothing better than a really nice rib-eye with some decent Cab Sav. That's living, I tell's ya. I don't think I could survive in a meat-less world actually, it would be a hardship too much to bear. But that's just me. Mr. "O Positive".

Paul McCartney started a phrase that I hear a lot of PETA people use "one visit to a slaughterhouse will make you a vegetarian for life". Ha - I'm living proof that that stupid phrase isn't true.

If people feel there are some health benefits to being a vegetarian I don't really agree but respect the thought process.

Drives me nuts though when people pretend their lifestyle is more morally acceptable.

Regardless of whether you eat them directly or not animals stills die to support your lifestle.

 

 

The survival of the entire planet is based on living things eating other living things.  If anyone is looking some kind of moral high ground, there are better places to look.

 

 

Yes...to an extent.

 

I agree with what Paul McCartney is saying.  For me personally, after watching the documentary Earthlings (and a couple of others), I have a real hard time eating meat.  I certainly feel guilty.  That feeling wears off in time.  I have a buddy who is incredibly stubborn.  He's the "i would eat steak in a slaughterhouse" type and I showed him a documentary and he was fighting back tears and admitted he wished he could not eat meat and would try to eat less.  Its really a very immoral thing we do to animals.  Im not rich by any stretch but if government regulations forced meat providers to be far kinder to animals in the process and it cost a bit more, I would have ZERO problem with that.

 

But Im weak.  I like my leather seats.  I like my leather jacket.  Its a terrible thing.  But we're supposed to be an enlightened species and we *should* treat animals a lot better than we do.  Earthlings also goes into how house pets are treated, showing cats literally being stuffed into a box for mass euthanization.  Very sad.

[kelownabomberfan]

So my solution is to just not watch documentaries made by people with an anti-meat agenda. Does horrible stuff go on in the world against animals every day? Yup. Does horrible stuff go on in the world every day against humans? Yup. Both are terrible things that shouldn't happen.

[Mr Dee]

[The Unknown Poster]

So my solution is to just not watch documentaries made by people with an anti-meat agenda. Does horrible stuff go on in the world against animals every day? Yup. Does horrible stuff go on in the world every day against humans? Yup. Both are terrible things that shouldn't happen.

 

That is certainly one opinion to carry.  Its not a very enlightened one, but its one.

 

I mean, by that stance, we could literally jusitfy any behaviour because "bad things happen".   Im a hypocrit because I eat meat.  But I certainly wish I was strong enough not to support these places that treat animals so poorly.  As far as humans treating humans poorly, thats awful too.  But human nature is such we have free will to be as nasty and mean to one another as we choose.  Unfortunately.

[Mark H.]

 

So my solution is to just not watch documentaries made by people with an anti-meat agenda. Does horrible stuff go on in the world against animals every day? Yup. Does horrible stuff go on in the world every day against humans? Yup. Both are terrible things that shouldn't happen.

 

That is certainly one opinion to carry.  Its not a very enlightened one, but its one.

 

I mean, by that stance, we could literally jusitfy any behaviour because "bad things happen".   Im a hypocrit because I eat meat.  But I certainly wish I was strong enough not to support these places that treat animals so poorly.  As far as humans treating humans poorly, thats awful too.  But human nature is such we have free will to be as nasty and mean to one another as we choose.  Unfortunately.

 

 

Yes, you can find places that are inhumane, and they are the ones that end up on you tube.  But modern slaughter houses are actually humane with very little stress to the animals. They have to be - there's a government inspector there every day.  And meat from a stressed animal is actually not fit to be eaten - it has a very musky smell.

 

The truth is, butchering is actually more humane that it ever was.  Today chickens (and other poultry) are electrocuted.  Butchering chickens on family farms back in the 'good old days' consisted of chopping the head off with an axe or using a v-shaped apparatus with sharp edges.  Sometimes you missed and had to quickly do it again.  By contrast, electrocution is fast, accurate and consistent.  The bird dies - fast.