Montreal Game - Rules and strategic implications

[ALuCsRED]

In the last minute of the  Montreal game, the Blue Bombers scored a touchdown and missed the 2 pt convert.

 

On the subsequent kick off, Lumbala takes a knee and then gets up and returns for 16 yards.  

 

I know kneeling by the QB is the end of the play, and kneeling in the endzone would immediately give up a safety or rouge.  To me, kneeling on the kickoff in play should result in a dead ball (as per Rule 1 Section 4 of the rule book):

 

"• When a ball carrier is on the ground and, in the judgment of the official, is not

attempting to advance the ball, the official shall immediately declare the ball dead."

 

 

Now, the reason I bring this up is our actions on the 2nd to last play of the game.  With 6 seconds left, Troy Smith throws a pass to Brandon Whitaker for 7 yards to the Wpg54.  Shouldn't the Bombers have let Whitaker lie on the ground for an additional second or two to run out the clock, rather than tackle the defenseless player immediately?

 

 

IMO, if Lumbala kneeling does not trigger a whistle on the kick off, the same rules should apply to Whitaker and the whistle shouldn't blow until he's touched.  

 

 

[JuranBoldenRules]

Yes, very inconsistent in the space of what, 3 plays?  Lumbala gave himself up.  I'm sure if a Bomber came in there and knocked him to the turf it would have been a penalty, yet he's able to get up from purposefully taking a knee and gain yards.  Should have been a dead ball.

[Mr Dee]

Yes, very inconsistent in the space of what, 3 plays?  Lumbala gave himself up.  I'm sure if a Bomber came in there and knocked him to the turf it would have been a penalty, yet he's able to get up from purposefully taking a knee and gain yards.  Should have been a dead ball.

 

Agreed, and the very reason that O'Shea has asked for an official explanation as to the call/no call on that particular play.

If I were a tackler, I would have held up on that submission.

 

Blow that whistle!

[HardCoreBlue]

In the last minute of the  Montreal game, the Blue Bombers scored a touchdown and missed the 2 pt convert.

 

On the subsequent kick off, Lumbala takes a knee and then gets up and returns for 16 yards.  

 

I know kneeling by the QB is the end of the play, and kneeling in the endzone would immediately give up a safety or rouge.  To me, kneeling on the kickoff in play should result in a dead ball (as per Rule 1 Section 4 of the rule book):

 

"• When a ball carrier is on the ground and, in the judgment of the official, is not

attempting to advance the ball, the official shall immediately declare the ball dead."

 

 

Now, the reason I bring this up is our actions on the 2nd to last play of the game.  With 6 seconds left, Troy Smith throws a pass to Brandon Whitaker for 7 yards to the Wpg54.  Shouldn't the Bombers have let Whitaker lie on the ground for an additional second or two to run out the clock, rather than tackle the defenseless player immediately?

 

 

IMO, if Lumbala kneeling does not trigger a whistle on the kick off, the same rules should apply to Whitaker and the whistle shouldn't blow until he's touched.  

I thought that as soon as a knee is down, the play is called dead. Much like you see when control tower is checking to see whether a knee was down prior to a fumble.

As I missed that particularly play did his knee actually touch the turf because if it wasn't, it's a legit play, no?

[Mike]

Is that the play where Lumbala fielded the ball with his knee on the ground? Hence, he wasn't actually taking a knee?

[kcin94]

 

In the last minute of the  Montreal game, the Blue Bombers scored a touchdown and missed the 2 pt convert.

 

On the subsequent kick off, Lumbala takes a knee and then gets up and returns for 16 yards.  

 

I know kneeling by the QB is the end of the play, and kneeling in the endzone would immediately give up a safety or rouge.  To me, kneeling on the kickoff in play should result in a dead ball (as per Rule 1 Section 4 of the rule book):

 

"• When a ball carrier is on the ground and, in the judgment of the official, is not

attempting to advance the ball, the official shall immediately declare the ball dead."

 

 

Now, the reason I bring this up is our actions on the 2nd to last play of the game.  With 6 seconds left, Troy Smith throws a pass to Brandon Whitaker for 7 yards to the Wpg54.  Shouldn't the Bombers have let Whitaker lie on the ground for an additional second or two to run out the clock, rather than tackle the defenseless player immediately?

 

 

IMO, if Lumbala kneeling does not trigger a whistle on the kick off, the same rules should apply to Whitaker and the whistle shouldn't blow until he's touched.  

I thought that as soon as a knee is down, the play is called dead. Much like you see when control tower is checking to see whether a knee was down prior to a fumble.

As I missed that particularly play did his knee actually touch the turf because if it wasn't, it's a legit play, no?

 

Not quite. Someone has to touch you. It's not an automatic. If you trip and fall and your knee is down you can get back up. The play is only blown dead if the ref feels the player is giving himself up.

[Mr Dee]

 

 

In the last minute of the  Montreal game, the Blue Bombers scored a touchdown and missed the 2 pt convert.

 

On the subsequent kick off, Lumbala takes a knee and then gets up and returns for 16 yards.  

 

I know kneeling by the QB is the end of the play, and kneeling in the endzone would immediately give up a safety or rouge.  To me, kneeling on the kickoff in play should result in a dead ball (as per Rule 1 Section 4 of the rule book):

 

"• When a ball carrier is on the ground and, in the judgment of the official, is not

attempting to advance the ball, the official shall immediately declare the ball dead."

 

 

Now, the reason I bring this up is our actions on the 2nd to last play of the game.  With 6 seconds left, Troy Smith throws a pass to Brandon Whitaker for 7 yards to the Wpg54.  Shouldn't the Bombers have let Whitaker lie on the ground for an additional second or two to run out the clock, rather than tackle the defenseless player immediately?

 

 

IMO, if Lumbala kneeling does not trigger a whistle on the kick off, the same rules should apply to Whitaker and the whistle shouldn't blow until he's touched.  

I thought that as soon as a knee is down, the play is called dead. Much like you see when control tower is checking to see whether a knee was down prior to a fumble.

As I missed that particularly play did his knee actually touch the turf because if it wasn't, it's a legit play, no?

 

Not quite. Someone has to touch you. It's not an automatic. If you trip and fall and your knee is down you can get back up. The play is only blown dead if the ref feels the player is giving himself up.

 

 

That's odd, because, in essence, if you're taking a knee, you are giving yourself up.

It isn't a stumble, it was a conscious effort to stop, and take a knee.

 

I'd imagine we'd get flagged quite quickly if he was hit on doing so.

[kcin94]

 

 

 

In the last minute of the  Montreal game, the Blue Bombers scored a touchdown and missed the 2 pt convert.

 

On the subsequent kick off, Lumbala takes a knee and then gets up and returns for 16 yards.  

 

I know kneeling by the QB is the end of the play, and kneeling in the endzone would immediately give up a safety or rouge.  To me, kneeling on the kickoff in play should result in a dead ball (as per Rule 1 Section 4 of the rule book):

 

"• When a ball carrier is on the ground and, in the judgment of the official, is not

attempting to advance the ball, the official shall immediately declare the ball dead."

 

 

Now, the reason I bring this up is our actions on the 2nd to last play of the game.  With 6 seconds left, Troy Smith throws a pass to Brandon Whitaker for 7 yards to the Wpg54.  Shouldn't the Bombers have let Whitaker lie on the ground for an additional second or two to run out the clock, rather than tackle the defenseless player immediately?

 

 

IMO, if Lumbala kneeling does not trigger a whistle on the kick off, the same rules should apply to Whitaker and the whistle shouldn't blow until he's touched.  

I thought that as soon as a knee is down, the play is called dead. Much like you see when control tower is checking to see whether a knee was down prior to a fumble.

As I missed that particularly play did his knee actually touch the turf because if it wasn't, it's a legit play, no?

 

Not quite. Someone has to touch you. It's not an automatic. If you trip and fall and your knee is down you can get back up. The play is only blown dead if the ref feels the player is giving himself up.

 

 

That's odd, because, in essence, if you're taking a knee, you are giving yourself up.

It isn't a stumble, it was a conscious effort to stop, and take a knee.

 

I'd imagine we'd get flagged quite quickly if he was hit on doing so.

 

 

Only if you intentionally take a knee. Not every knee is intentional. Here it looked he did take the knee intentionally and hence it should have been blown dead but he got up and started running so I guess the ref let it go. No big deal. He cost himself some yards/time in the process.

[mbrg]

The clock doesn't start running until he touches the ball so he may have actually been doing that to save all 28 seconds.  It sure looked like he was giving himself up.  And then changed his mind for whatever reason.

 

I expect that if a player is choosing to do that and knows he will ahead of time, he can/will tell the ref of his intentions prior to the kick.

[Doublezero]

The clock doesn't start running until he touches the ball so he may have actually been doing that to save all 28 seconds.  It sure looked like he was giving himself up.  And then changed his mind for whatever reason.

 

I expect that if a player is choosing to do that and knows he will ahead of time, he can/will tell the ref of his intentions prior to the kick.

 

Is it possible that he changed his mind because he expected a whistle calling the play dead, but it never came? And so failing to prompt a quick whistle, he decided he might as well try to advance the ball. O'Shea said he would have an answer on the 'knee-down' ruling today - hopefully some scribe asks about it and tells the rest of the world. AluCsRed - that's an interesting observation and question about BB waiting to touch Whitaker. But we've all seen many calls where officials whistle a dead ball even though the downed ball-carrier hasn't been touched. 

[Valderan_CA]

 

The clock doesn't start running until he touches the ball so he may have actually been doing that to save all 28 seconds.  It sure looked like he was giving himself up.  And then changed his mind for whatever reason.

 

I expect that if a player is choosing to do that and knows he will ahead of time, he can/will tell the ref of his intentions prior to the kick.

 

Is it possible that he changed his mind because he expected a whistle calling the play dead, but it never came? And so failing to prompt a quick whistle, he decided he might as well try to advance the ball. O'Shea said he would have an answer on the 'knee-down' ruling today - hopefully some scribe asks about it and tells the rest of the world. AluCsRed - that's an interesting observation and question about BB waiting to touch Whitaker. But we've all seen many calls where officials whistle a dead ball even though the downed ball-carrier hasn't been touched. 

 

 

That's what I figured happened... he put his knee down and kind of looked to the refs but then very quickly got up and started running.

 

I think he was expecting a whistle from the ref's right away and when it didn't happen was decided to move forward to go down more quickly.

[brett_c_b]

The biggest one I wondered about was actually the last play of the game, from watching the games so far it seems coaches can challenge PI in the final 3 minutes, although I'm not 100% sure on that. But if Montreal wasn't going to try for a rouge why not just throw a hail mary on that last play and then challenge for PI. If you get a PI call you kick a field goal and win, if not you still lost.

[Jpan85]

The ball was thrown to Stala he was going to try to kick it through the end zone but the pass was incomplete.

[kelownabomberfan]

The ball was thrown to Stala he was going to try to kick it through the end zone but the pass was incomplete.

Thank goodness, otherwise we'd have had to listen to Rod Black orgasm in his pants over "Sticky" Stala again...

[KptKrunch]

In the last minute of the  Montreal game, the Blue Bombers scored a touchdown and missed the 2 pt convert.

 

On the subsequent kick off, Lumbala takes a knee and then gets up and returns for 16 yards.  

 

I know kneeling by the QB is the end of the play, and kneeling in the endzone would immediately give up a safety or rouge.  To me, kneeling on the kickoff in play should result in a dead ball (as per Rule 1 Section 4 of the rule book):

 

"• When a ball carrier is on the ground and, in the judgment of the official, is not

attempting to advance the ball, the official shall immediately declare the ball dead."

 

 

Now, the reason I bring this up is our actions on the 2nd to last play of the game.  With 6 seconds left, Troy Smith throws a pass to Brandon Whitaker for 7 yards to the Wpg54.  Shouldn't the Bombers have let Whitaker lie on the ground for an additional second or two to run out the clock, rather than tackle the defenseless player immediately?

 

 

IMO, if Lumbala kneeling does not trigger a whistle on the kick off, the same rules should apply to Whitaker and the whistle shouldn't blow until he's touched.  

 

I could be wrong, but TBH I thought he lost his place on the field. I think he thought he was in the end zone, so he automatically dropped to one knee as I'm sure that was the instruction. Yes, you give up a single point to do down two points but you are still able to, from the 35 yard line with over a minute left - easily move into field goal range. So anyway, he dropped to one knee and then realized (official maybe said something?) that he wasn't in the endzone, he was on his 7 yard line (I think, can't recall exactly where he was but it was deep). OOOOOPPPPPPPPS - i better bet up and get my ass in gear cause I don't think coach would want to start this deep. 

You are right though, when he kneeled he's giving himself up. In the end zone they usually blow it dead right away once he does it but I've seen the official blow the whistle only after the kneeler is touched. But that could be a coincidence as usually they run around bit - even when they are behind on the score board... which I never understood. 

[JuranBoldenRules]

 

In the last minute of the  Montreal game, the Blue Bombers scored a touchdown and missed the 2 pt convert.

 

On the subsequent kick off, Lumbala takes a knee and then gets up and returns for 16 yards.  

 

I know kneeling by the QB is the end of the play, and kneeling in the endzone would immediately give up a safety or rouge.  To me, kneeling on the kickoff in play should result in a dead ball (as per Rule 1 Section 4 of the rule book):

 

"• When a ball carrier is on the ground and, in the judgment of the official, is not

attempting to advance the ball, the official shall immediately declare the ball dead."

 

 

Now, the reason I bring this up is our actions on the 2nd to last play of the game.  With 6 seconds left, Troy Smith throws a pass to Brandon Whitaker for 7 yards to the Wpg54.  Shouldn't the Bombers have let Whitaker lie on the ground for an additional second or two to run out the clock, rather than tackle the defenseless player immediately?

 

 

IMO, if Lumbala kneeling does not trigger a whistle on the kick off, the same rules should apply to Whitaker and the whistle shouldn't blow until he's touched.  

 

I could be wrong, but TBH I thought he lost his place on the field. I think he thought he was in the end zone, so he automatically dropped to one knee as I'm sure that was the instruction. Yes, you give up a single point to do down two points but you are still able to, from the 35 yard line with over a minute left - easily move into field goal range. So anyway, he dropped to one knee and then realized (official maybe said something?) that he wasn't in the endzone, he was on his 7 yard line (I think, can't recall exactly where he was but it was deep). OOOOOPPPPPPPPS - i better bet up and get my ass in gear cause I don't think coach would want to start this deep. 

You are right though, when he kneeled he's giving himself up. In the end zone they usually blow it dead right away once he does it but I've seen the official blow the whistle only after the kneeler is touched. But that could be a coincidence as usually they run around bit - even when they are behind on the score board... which I never understood. 

 

 

I think Montreal figured the Bombers would squib kick and told their returners to hit the deck to save time and not fight for a few yards.  Lumbala took that instruction extremely literally and gave himself up at the 5 after the Bombers kicked deep.

[Jaxon]

You are right though, when he kneeled he's giving himself up. In the end zone they usually blow it dead right away once he does it but I've seen the official blow the whistle only after the kneeler is touched. But that could be a coincidence as usually they run around bit - even when they are behind on the score board... which I never understood. 

 

IMHO. the officials blew the call, the returner conceded and it should have been blown dead.

 

On your second point, unless time is critical (counting seconds) most returners while intending to concede in the end zone are coached to run around a bit to force the cover team to run down field.  Cover teams tend to have more defensive players on them, and you want to tire them out as much as possible, as they will stay on the field on the next play.  A significant amount of football strategy involves trying to wear down the opposition all game long to take advantage later in the game.  That is why you will see some teams swap receivers frequently and run fly routes against a corner all game, it is also why you will see teams rotate in d-linemen, because they know it is difficult for the offence to rotate in O-linemen.

[Jacquie]

The biggest one I wondered about was actually the last play of the game, from watching the games so far it seems coaches can challenge PI in the final 3 minutes, although I'm not 100% sure on that. But if Montreal wasn't going to try for a rouge why not just throw a hail mary on that last play and then challenge for PI. If you get a PI call you kick a field goal and win, if not you still lost.

 

A coach can challenge a PI call in the last 3 minutes of the game. The team needs to have a challenge (obviously) and a time-out left. If the team is challenging that PI occurred and wasn't called and loses the challenge then they lose their time-out. I'm not sure whether Montreal had a time-out left at that point in the game. 

[tacklewasher]

Is that the play where Lumbala fielded the ball with his knee on the ground? Hence, he wasn't actually taking a knee?

He caught the ball upright and then took a knee. No idea why but as he wasn't touched he got up and ran. Maybe he thought he was in the endzone or something.