Tweaking Our Current Receivers

[robynjt]

At the beginning of the season we were doing a great job of spreading the ball around to different receivers and the route patterns looked like they were being run with good timing so that receivers were where they needed to be at the right times. It looked to me like the patterns were designed to compliment each other.

Now it looks like we're trying to force throws into places where the receiver's body control hasn't been maintained being pushed of his route in some way or where keys blocks haven't been established.

We are also very poor at execution is some packages. Our basic screen package is horrid and we often loose yards when tossing wide side to Grigsby or Denmark because the defenders break away quicker than we can block them.

Every time we try a screen pass and the blocks are so pathetic, I die a little inside.

[TrueBlue]

I asked O'Shea this question a few weeks ago. He basically said that Fitzgerald has trouble getting open as a receiver because he isn't fast enough.

I thought it was a pretty lame response but I didn't challenge him on it. My thinking is it's the OCs job to create schemes to get players open in space if they can't create separation themselves.

 

It's not the OC's job to create schemes to get players "open" in space, it's really all on the receiver.  Any good DB isn't going to let you get open in space early, unless there is a breakdown in coverage.  If that happens then it's the receiver's job to find that space.

 

No OC can predicate their scheming based on this happening.  

 

Getting open typically happens for a second or two and if the receiver can time it at the right moment to break off and lead himself to where the ball is being thrown.   

 

Good DBs will track good route-running receivers no matter where they go on the field. 

[HardCoreBlue]

Fitzgerald in the slot makes no sense. You have to put a guy like that in a position closer to line of scrimmage so he can leak out into coverage. He gets open due to deception.

I can't remember what game it was or even the team (maybe Calgary), but I remember Suitor pointing out on a couple of occasions the offense lined everyone up as a receiver, no emptying the backfield, just all at receiver to begin the play. It would be interesting to see the Bombers try this (maybe keep Fitzgerald back for pass protection). Especially with Brohm trying to gain some confidence other than handing off to Grigsby. Unless of course the Bombers have done this and I haven't noticed.

[TrueBlue]

 

At the beginning of the season we were doing a great job of spreading the ball around to different receivers and the route patterns looked like they were being run with good timing so that receivers were where they needed to be at the right times. It looked to me like the patterns were designed to compliment each other.

Now it looks like we're trying to force throws into places where the receiver's body control hasn't been maintained being pushed of his route in some way or where keys blocks haven't been established.

We are also very poor at execution is some packages. Our basic screen package is horrid and we often loose yards when tossing wide side to Grigsby or Denmark because the defenders break away quicker than we can block them.

Every time we try a screen pass and the blocks are so pathetic, I die a little inside.

 

 

The blocks can be weak at times but I blame how predictable our screen plays are to defend.  It's really hard for them to block when the defenders have already keyed in on the guy with the ball before he has the ball.

[GCn20]

Ok, so to summarize this thread so far the ideas are to take touches away from an already  underutilized Grigsby and give them to Pontbriand to increase offensive production, replace Watson with Fitzgerald in the slot, and start JFG instead of Romby.

I vote for the status quo over these suggestions. No offense to the guys floating out the ideas but with the exception of JFG over Romby I don't see any of these suggestions having  even a remote chance of working out.

[BigBlue]

Ok, so to summarize this thread so far the ideas are to take touches away from an already  underutilized Grigsby and give them to Pontbriand to increase offensive production, replace Watson with Fitzgerald in the slot, and start JFG instead of Romby.

I vote for the status quo over these suggestions. No offense to the guys floating out the ideas but with the exception of JFG over Romby I don't see any of these suggestions having  even a remote chance of working out.

The point I am trying to make the most in this thread is that we need to free up Corey Watson to be mainly a receiver instead of mainly a blocker. If Fitzgerald can take over the blocking chores all he needs to do as a receiver is occupy a SAM or a D B. He doesn't need to be fast; he can run the short routes where all he needs to do is keep his body between the back and the ball. There will not be a lot of players who will be able to reach around his rather large physique.. I'm sure Fitzgerald learned to do this playing slot back in college. And if they choose to ignore him (as no worthwhile threat), he has good hands and he will catch the ball. From time to time he will even rumble down the field with that there pigskin.

[Floyd]

Would rather see JFG used as an FB/SB than either Pontbriand or Fitzgerald...  6', 220 is still big enough to block

 

Over-valuing unproven talent thread is pretty much right on schedule...

[mbrg]

 

 

At the beginning of the season we were doing a great job of spreading the ball around to different receivers and the route patterns looked like they were being run with good timing so that receivers were where they needed to be at the right times. It looked to me like the patterns were designed to compliment each other.

Now it looks like we're trying to force throws into places where the receiver's body control hasn't been maintained being pushed of his route in some way or where keys blocks haven't been established.

We are also very poor at execution is some packages. Our basic screen package is horrid and we often loose yards when tossing wide side to Grigsby or Denmark because the defenders break away quicker than we can block them.

Every time we try a screen pass and the blocks are so pathetic, I die a little inside.

 

 

The blocks can be weak at times but I blame how predictable our screen plays are to defend.  It's really hard for them to block when the defenders have already keyed in on the guy with the ball before he has the ball.

 

 

Our best blocking receivers, Watson and Moore, have not been the healthiest pair.

[BigBlue]

Would rather see JFG used as an FB/SB than either Pontbriand or Fitzgerald...  6', 220 is still big enough to block

 

Over-valuing unproven talent thread is pretty much right on schedule...

Why discuss what's proven ... it's the unknown that is intriguing

[rebusrankin]

You know what pisses me off about Fitzgerald? The fact we took him in round three when he was likely available later. Could have taken Bo Lokombo with that pick.

[Floyd]

 

Would rather see JFG used as an FB/SB than either Pontbriand or Fitzgerald...  6', 220 is still big enough to block

 

Over-valuing unproven talent thread is pretty much right on schedule...

Why discuss what's proven ... it's the unknown that is intriguing

 

 

Oh I agree... but let's discuss JFG's potential to replace Watson for a whole season or moving Kohlert over the Kelly's spot...  at least we have a sample size on those guys.

[Jacquie]

Moore should be back practicing after the bye.

[JuranBoldenRules]

Pontbriand taking handoffs makes little sense to me.  He's clearly uncomfortable carrying the ball, giving him the ball where he's heading into traffic just isn't a good idea.  Doing it a couple times a season to break tendency, fine.  It's like lighting a match at a gas pump.  Maybe the gas station won't explode this time, but it isn't a great idea regardless.

 

And I'm not running clearing routes to throw a 3 yard pass to Carl Fitzgerald.  If we're running combo routes to get people open, it's Denmark, Moore, Grigsby, Kohlert, guys who can do something when they have the ball.

[gbill2004]

Pontbriand taking handoffs makes little sense to me. He's clearly uncomfortable carrying the ball, giving him the ball where he's heading into traffic just isn't a good idea. Doing it a couple times a season to break tendency, fine. It's like lighting a match at a gas pump. Maybe the gas station won't explode this time, but it isn't a great idea regardless.

And I'm not running clearing routes to throw a 3 yard pass to Carl Fitzgerald. If we're running combo routes to get people open, it's Denmark, Moore, Grigsby, Kohlert, guys who can do something when they have the ball.

I disagree. There's huge value in keeping a defense off balance and guessing. A few passes per game to Fitzgerald, and a few runs up the middle for Pontbriand would help do that. I never said replace Watson with Fitzgerald in the slot.

[Tracker]

 

Pontbriand taking handoffs makes little sense to me. He's clearly uncomfortable carrying the ball, giving him the ball where he's heading into traffic just isn't a good idea. Doing it a couple times a season to break tendency, fine. It's like lighting a match at a gas pump. Maybe the gas station won't explode this time, but it isn't a great idea regardless.

And I'm not running clearing routes to throw a 3 yard pass to Carl Fitzgerald. If we're running combo routes to get people open, it's Denmark, Moore, Grigsby, Kohlert, guys who can do something when they have the ball.

I disagree. There's huge value in keeping a defense off balance and guessing. A few passes per game to Fitzgerald, and a few runs up the middle for Pontbriand would help do that. I never said replace Watson with Fitzgerald in the slot.

 

Keeping a defence off balance is critical- for the past few years, our offense was utterly predictable and we were screwed by the third quarter. The only hitch might be that out talent level might nor be good enough as yet to run that sort of thing consistently.

[JuranBoldenRules]

 

Pontbriand taking handoffs makes little sense to me. He's clearly uncomfortable carrying the ball, giving him the ball where he's heading into traffic just isn't a good idea. Doing it a couple times a season to break tendency, fine. It's like lighting a match at a gas pump. Maybe the gas station won't explode this time, but it isn't a great idea regardless.

And I'm not running clearing routes to throw a 3 yard pass to Carl Fitzgerald. If we're running combo routes to get people open, it's Denmark, Moore, Grigsby, Kohlert, guys who can do something when they have the ball.

I disagree. There's huge value in keeping a defense off balance and guessing. A few passes per game to Fitzgerald, and a few runs up the middle for Pontbriand would help do that. I never said replace Watson with Fitzgerald in the slot.

 

 

There are much better ways to break tendency that would keep the ball in the hands of playmakers.  For the most part, defenses won't lose track of eligible receivers, especially downfield.  So you're basically tossing a 2-3 yard pass (vertically, might be a much longer pass in real distance for the QB) out to Fitzgerald or Pontbriand in space and hoping they can maybe gain a few more yards.  You're looking at maybe a couple opportunities per game for either guy who plays those tight end spots where the QB can check down to them when they are wide-open.  You hit that once for a first down, and it's probably closed for the rest of the game because the LB/DB who is responsible for that flat was probably cheating downfield or looking into the backfield.  There's no purpose in running plays for those guys regularly, they just don't have the speed or quickness to win 1 on 1 against coverage.  If they are redesigning the offence, spend time figuring out how to get the ball to Denmark, Watson and Kohlert more effectively.

[Mike]

 

Pontbriand taking handoffs makes little sense to me. He's clearly uncomfortable carrying the ball, giving him the ball where he's heading into traffic just isn't a good idea. Doing it a couple times a season to break tendency, fine. It's like lighting a match at a gas pump. Maybe the gas station won't explode this time, but it isn't a great idea regardless.

And I'm not running clearing routes to throw a 3 yard pass to Carl Fitzgerald. If we're running combo routes to get people open, it's Denmark, Moore, Grigsby, Kohlert, guys who can do something when they have the ball.

I disagree. There's huge value in keeping a defense off balance and guessing. A few passes per game to Fitzgerald, and a few runs up the middle for Pontbriand would help do that. I never said replace Watson with Fitzgerald in the slot.

 

 

You're right, there is huge value in keeping a defense guessing. But taking the ball away from skilled guys? To give it to Carl Fitzgerald or Pontbriand? We'd be better served finding ways to keep the defense guessing AND putting the ball in the hands of skilled players.

 

I'd prefer to see more of Stoudermire on offense if that's the type of stuff we're trying to pull off. Or send Grigsby out to the wide side in a six receiver set like they've done a bit. That's the type of stuff that will make a defense pay if you can succeed at it.

 

As JBR said, Fitzgerald or Pontbriand are well served as tendency breakers. The way they contribute is fine by me right now, but we shouldn't be relying on them to give us more than one first down a month.

[Fatty Liver]

 

 

Pontbriand taking handoffs makes little sense to me. He's clearly uncomfortable carrying the ball, giving him the ball where he's heading into traffic just isn't a good idea. Doing it a couple times a season to break tendency, fine. It's like lighting a match at a gas pump. Maybe the gas station won't explode this time, but it isn't a great idea regardless.

And I'm not running clearing routes to throw a 3 yard pass to Carl Fitzgerald. If we're running combo routes to get people open, it's Denmark, Moore, Grigsby, Kohlert, guys who can do something when they have the ball.

I disagree. There's huge value in keeping a defense off balance and guessing. A few passes per game to Fitzgerald, and a few runs up the middle for Pontbriand would help do that. I never said replace Watson with Fitzgerald in the slot.

 

 

There are much better ways to break tendency that would keep the ball in the hands of playmakers.  For the most part, defenses won't lose track of eligible receivers, especially downfield.  So you're basically tossing a 2-3 yard pass (vertically, might be a much longer pass in real distance for the QB) out to Fitzgerald or Pontbriand in space and hoping they can maybe gain a few more yards.  You're looking at maybe a couple opportunities per game for either guy who plays those tight end spots where the QB can check down to them when they are wide-open.  You hit that once for a first down, and it's probably closed for the rest of the game because the LB/DB who is responsible for that flat was probably cheating downfield or looking into the backfield.  There's no purpose in running plays for those guys regularly, they just don't have the speed or quickness to win 1 on 1 against coverage.  If they are redesigning the offence, spend time figuring out how to get the ball to Denmark, Watson and Kohlert more effectively.

 

 

This is exactly the situation the Bombers would want to create.  By causing the opposing D to pay more attention to  Pontbriand or Fitzgerald it creates more space and more time for the skilled receivers to get open.  If the D continues to cheat by ignoring those two, than the Bombers can continue to take advantage of what is given.  The goal is to gain consistent first downs using as many tools as possible to keep the D. from focusing on singular targets, it doesn't all need to tie into dramatic 30 yard gains. 

 

When Ricky Ray is at his best this is exactly what he does, he takes what is given and punishes with the long ball when the D. tries to cheat.  We might not yet realize it but Drew Willy is quite possibly the heir apparent to Ricky Ray as the best throwing QB in the CFL.

[gbill2004]

I'm not saying give Fitzgerald 10 looks per game or Pontbriand 15 touches per game. I would like to see them get the ball 2-3 times a game instead of once every second game. So just a little more. Good things always seem to happen when we go to them (i.e. first downs). And like I said earlier, keeping defenses off balance opens things up elsewhere for the offense throughout the game.

[Blueandgold]

I'm not saying give Fitzgerald 10 looks per game or Pontbriand 15 touches per game. I would like to see them get the ball 2-3 times a game instead of once every second game. So just a little more. Good things always seem to happen when we go to them (i.e. first downs). And like I said earlier, keeping defenses off balance opens things up elsewhere for the offense throughout the game.

But if we increase the usage would their production go down? I'm fine with the way both of them are being used.

[mfranc]

The biggest issue I see the Bombers having with a solid group of receivers is health.  Losing Moore is a real hardship because it puts more pressure on the remaining guys and they are less likely to be open.

[pigseye]

Fullbacks excel when no one expects them to get the ball. When you use them a lot you lose the surprise advantage.

 

Unfortunately the FB position died out long ago in the CFL, which is too bad because today the players are much more athletic and able to run and catch as well as most other offensive positions. I'm not surprised that Marcel doesn't have an alignment with a FB in the backfield but am surprised that it isn't something that would be added during the year as the playbook expands. Marcel needs to expand the playbook plain and simple.

[17to85]

The FB position became more of a tight end position, and it's used less because of the way defenses have adapted. You have plenty of slotbacks who are comparable in size or bigger than linebackes so you don't need a dedicated big body, you can just use your regular receivers. 

[Goalie]

I like Pontbriand and Fitzgerald but... I think they are nothing more than good blockers and solid special teams players.. They are good foot soldiers i guess you can say but that's about it. I think Pontbriand is a very good special teams player and is also the captain, I think they are in the roles that suits their talent (or lack there of) the best.  IMO, Fitzgerald is a very replaceable player on the team, Pontbriand? replaceable but not as much as he seems to be one of those heart and soul type of players and a leader. 

[johnzo]

I'm not saying give Fitzgerald 10 looks per game or Pontbriand 15 touches per game. I would like to see them get the ball 2-3 times a game instead of once every second game. So just a little more. Good things always seem to happen when we go to them (i.e. first downs). And like I said earlier, keeping defenses off balance opens things up elsewhere for the offense throughout the game.

I don't know if your tendency breakers should ever become tendencies.