New coordinators for 2015?

[Mike]

Walters? I wouldn't say Walters is on the hotseat, but our enhanced scouting staff definitely is.

 

These guys are supposed to get out there and find us the players we've never heard of. We need a lot more of those.

 

Fingers crossed for McManus to find us some more studs.

[Mr Dee]

The Etch experiment for me is over. 

It is an interesting concept that requires on field adjustments and game planning to match the opponent.

In yesterday's game, being one step behind didn't only apply to the pass defenders.

The chess board moves in yesterdays game made it look like they had the Queen, matching up against our rooks and it was over in less than 30 moves.

[NotoriousBIG]

HOTSEATS?

 

-- O'Shea -- free ride til end of 2015

-- Walters -- death watch begins Labor Day 2015 if we come out with little progress

-- Etch -- Hot seat NOW. Will be surprised if he is asked to return

-- Special Teams -- ditto

-- MB -- could earn a return next year if offence finds a groove. The Cotton move was stupid. 

[17to85]

Walters? I wouldn't say Walters is on the hotseat, but our enhanced scouting staff definitely is.

 

These guys are supposed to get out there and find us the players we've never heard of. We need a lot more of those.

 

Fingers crossed for McManus to find us some more studs.

The GM hires his scouting staff, if they fail it's on the GM. Walters needs to pick up his game in  big way. 

[The Unknown Poster]

Its hard to watch because of what we've been through.  But MOS is obviously going to get a lot of rope.  But you definitely want to see some progress with him also.  He's popular but that doesnt mean he's going to be a great HC.

[M.O.A.B.]

Aside from Dyce as OC.Other names I will be interested with for the OC - Jarious Jackson and/or Jason Maas.

[USABomberfan]

I would also say I think it's just within the fans nature to blame first and foremost their coordinators, which I'm not saying ours aren't at fault, but I think throughout the league we've seen fans do this.

 

Example, yesterday over at Riderfans, the whole Rider nation wants to crucify George Cortez for everything that goes wrong with that offense.  To us, the answer is simple, it's that Sunseri has no arm and cannot get the ball downfield, and his decision making is uncrisp, and that's why Cortez is limited in what he can call for that O.  But the Rider nation who look at other elements of things in Tino's game or in other ways they believe the team could move the ball, believe in that, hence why they blame their OC when he doesn't do those things.  I'd say the same thing goes for here with Bellefeuille.  What does concern me with Bellefeuille is that he's seemed to have gotten away from RB screen passes completely, and when your offense needs something to not only try to move the ball but also try and slow down a rush, those plays can be that thing.  Now it may not work and when execution isn't happening period, it's likely because your team is just not talented enough to do it, but I do think he should've at least tried to run that play.  But there are so many other factors that go into that execution besides just play calling or selection that you gotta remember before you start blaming the OC.

 

We might also look at say Tom Higgins right now and say, damn I wish we would've hired him as HC, but if we had started out in that same 1-8 start as the Als, I'm guessing we would've been as vocal about calling for his head as the Als fans.  The CFL is like that, your team can go from looking like utter crap to all star level in just a matter of games, or vice versa.  But that's why you gotta let the season play out in its entirety before jumping to conclusions about head coaches or coordinators.

[Floyd]

I'll pass on Jarious Jackson...  he's just getting his feet wet as a coach.  We don't need another learning curve.

[pigseye]

How can you blame the GM and scouting staff when they have to find the type of player the coaching staff wants? I find it hard to believe that there aren't any DT's wondering around out there somewhere but we haven't brought a single one in from day 1 because they want tweener's instead. Every short yardage play from Edmonton ended up in 3+ yard gains, there was zero push from the dline. It's a catch 22 situation.

 

The second half of the season is always the true measure of a team, just too small on the defensive front 7 and not enough talent on the offense, both need big changes.

[17to85]

How can you blame the GM and scouting staff when they have to find the type of player the coaching staff wants? I find it hard to believe that there aren't any DT's wondering around out there somewhere but we haven't brought a single one in from day 1 because they want tweener's instead. Every short yardage play from Edmonton ended up in 3+ yard gains, there was zero push from the dline. It's a catch 22 situation.

 

The second half of the season is always the true measure of a team, just too small on the defensive front 7 and not enough talent on the offense, both need big changes.

It's not size, it's talent. Wild is not your prototypical MLB but he is playing damned well despite it. Turner isn't a behemoth at DL and he's fine. The guys we are using just aren't good enough. Anderson was playing well at DT but they lost him to injury and the replacements haven't been up to par. 

[17to85]

Example, yesterday over at Riderfans, the whole Rider nation wants to crucify George Cortez for everything that goes wrong with that offense.  To us, the answer is simple, it's that Sunseri has no arm and cannot get the ball downfield, and his decision making is uncrisp, and that's why Cortez is limited in what he can call for that O.  But the Rider nation who look at other elements of things in Tino's game or in other ways they believe the team could move the ball, believe in that, hence why they blame their OC when he doesn't do those things.  I'd say the same thing goes for here with Bellefeuille.  What does concern me with Bellefeuille is that he's seemed to have gotten away from RB screen passes completely, and when your offense needs something to not only try to move the ball but also try and slow down a rush, those plays can be that thing.  Now it may not work and when execution isn't happening period, it's likely because your team is just not talented enough to do it, but I do think he should've at least tried to run that play.  But there are so many other factors that go into that execution besides just play calling or selection that you gotta remember before you start blaming the OC.

Here is the difference between Bomber fans blaming MB and rider fans blaming Cortez... Cortez has been one of the best OCs in the CFL for years and years and years while MB has peaked at average and shown for years that the best he can do is average. He has had bland and dull offenses every where he's gone and they've done just enough to not be a total embarassment at best. Cortez on the other hand has had CFL leading offenses many times on many different teams. One guy has a stellar resume and the other is the guy you hire when you have no other choices. 

[trueBlue83]

I agree with USA BF... it seems that they've got to the 'super slow developing' screen pass half way across the field... by the time the ball gets there the opposing D is all over us.  If we're going to get blitzed the way we have been, you need a couple options to dump it off quick.  

 

Amazing how we were complaining about the check down passes LaPo was famous for implementing 3 years ago, and now it's one of the only things that might work for us!

[Armchair GM]

Bellefeuille's likeliest guy to be first out the door.  It's becoming easier by the week to point to how ineffective and predictable his schemes are.  Secondly, O'Shea inherited Bellefeuille.  Sure, he wasn't *given* the OC job, but he was inherited by the new regime because he was less than awful in picking up the pieces last year. 

 

I personally don't see any good in retaining Etch either. The book on beating the Etch D is in print in its 15th edition... bully the small front 7, and burn the pass rush with screens over the middle.  Josh McCown was a "system QB" in Chicago last year. TERRIBLE in Tampa this year.  In the same vein, Greg Peach is a "system DE" in Etch's system.  I'd lump Sherman in there too.  The really big problem with retaining Etch another year is that we'd spend another year bringing in "system" players that will be totally useless to our next DC.  The alternative that I'm giving zero credence to is that Etch's D could evolve and be excellent.  That's just so unlikely though. 

 

All of this said, O'Shea is loyal, sometimes to a fault.  For that reason Etch is likelier than Bellefeuille to be back next year.  But I'll go on record as saying Etch is more detrimental long-term to the WBB than Marcel.  Tracey?  I have no strong feelings towards Tracey, and no problems seeing him get another year at the helm of ST's.

[pigseye]

 

How can you blame the GM and scouting staff when they have to find the type of player the coaching staff wants? I find it hard to believe that there aren't any DT's wondering around out there somewhere but we haven't brought a single one in from day 1 because they want tweener's instead. Every short yardage play from Edmonton ended up in 3+ yard gains, there was zero push from the dline. It's a catch 22 situation.

 

The second half of the season is always the true measure of a team, just too small on the defensive front 7 and not enough talent on the offense, both need big changes.

It's not size, it's talent. Wild is not your prototypical MLB but he is playing damned well despite it. Turner isn't a behemoth at DL and he's fine. The guys we are using just aren't good enough. Anderson was playing well at DT but they lost him to injury and the replacements haven't been up to par. 

 

 

It's size and strength, they got rag dolled by bigger, stronger men. Line play always comes down to beating the guy across the line from you.

[Logan007]

Funny how there are 4 schools of thought here...which covers everything regarding OC and DC.

 

- Group 1 wants both MB and Etch gone (I'm in that group)

- Group 2 says that it's definitely MB that's out the door come end of season

- Group 3 says that it's definitely Etch that's out the door come end of season

- Group 4 (smallest group) thinks both should get another chance

[Mark F]

 

Yup, watching the overload formations on D....which open up  tons of room for the slants, hooks and drags.....drove me crazy.   Worse....we totally sell out on certain areas of the field and leave some DB's in a ton of ISO.....with the idea of getting to the QB, as the tradeoff.  

 

Except we don't get to the QB, in time, anymore......

 

Need a change here, for next year.....

Was at the game and yup, bang on. All day, that's on the coach.

 

 

 

Part of the problem was that it was so obvious when this was being done. If I can see it watching on the tube, Reilly must be laughing. Don Mathews used to do it, but I think it was disguised more than this was. and for some reason it worked over and over again, for years. 

[mbrg]

 

 

MOS is safe then? Cause we seeing Burke thinking the last 2 games.

 

MOS is absolutely safe. People should've known better than to expect ZERO mistakes from a rookie HC. He gets the benefit of the doubt this year.

 

I actually think MOS has learned a lot this year. Yeah the back to back ass kickings really sting but the fact that he seems to have learned his lesson about just leaving the roster as status quo is encouraging. Just happens that he's dealing with a lot of **** on the roster right now. The American OL are just flat out embarassing right now and having Neufeld who Walters clearly pinned a lot of hope on injured doesn't help. Then having the DL perform so poorly ain't doing anyone any favours. Anderson getting hurt was bad luck and Vega having such a poor year is something no one could have seen coming. There are a lot of areas that need some help badly before we really start pointing too many fingers at O'Shea. For my money Walters is on much more of a hotseat than O'Shea. He needs to knock it out of the park in his off season recruiting. 

 

 

Honestly I'd say the back to back ass kickings are the silver lining.  We've lost however many minus 1 games out of our last however many games, but until Ottawa and Edmonton we were competitive in many or occasionally all facets of the games we lost this year.  These last two games - nothing.  A glimpse of "this might be the turning point" right before rolling over and dying.

 

If we had continued to play close ones; a bad moment at the 3 yard line at the end of the game; a muffed snap over the punter's head that is the margin of defeat while our longsnapper is out; etc, etc, it might be easier to look the other way on some of the personnel issues.  Now it's impossible.

 

We all knew this team wasn't good enough.  That's not an indictment or even a statement about our last 8 games.  When we were 5 and 1 this team still wasn't good enough, but it had gotten the better of other teams 5 times in 6 tries.  Our roster had less talent than most and injuries have played havoc with our ratio since the first week of training camp; the absence of depth made it difficult to shuffle out a depth chart week to week, but that doesn't matter after the last 2 weeks.  The last 2 weeks have nothing to do with that.  The last 2 weeks are the first 2 times this season that this team has shown quit.

 

Now with these 2 ass kickings each player and coach will be evaluated in the offseason more critically than they might have otherwise.  The last 2 weeks have removed any potential asterixes about ratios or injuries or the play of the Oline or any of that.  There's plenty of talent on this roster, but no one will get a free ride into next year.  Not after these last 2 weeks.

[NotoriousBIG]

You can't bring back Etch. When you are even getting called out by the douches on TSN, you have been exposed. 

 

Canning him now does nothing but he will not be invited back. 

 

If we could somehow wrangle Cortez from a bitter SK I would do a rain dance. 

[TBieber]

Ultimately it comes down to interpretation from the Head Coach and/or General Manager about the players they had at their disposal.

 

Thus far in 2014, the Bombers offence has averaged 9 yards and 2 points more per game than last season.

[mbrg]

 

I cant see how MC becomes the fall guy with an O-line this horrendous.  He'll get another season.

You mean MB?

 

I say get rid of them both.  Everyone has figured out our D and our O schemes and neither coordinator seems to be able to outsmart the other team.  It's just sad to watch.  We need better players as well.  But I'm tired of all of this mediocre vanilla play calling on both sides.

 

 

That's an interesting way to phrase it.  I'd suggest it's the total lack of vanilla play calling that gets Etch in trouble.

 

About 300 threads ago (or so) Etch's "unconventional" defence was being discussed and someone asked if anyone had ever actually seen Peach drop back into coverage.  I didn't respond because sometimes there isn't much value in doing so, but yes, I have seen Peach drop into coverage several times.  More of a zone drop really, but that probably goes without saying.  Anyways, he did it again vs Ottawa, which leads to the point I want to explore - Ottawa easily converted the play and picked up about 15 yards, I think on the way to a TD.

 

So does that make it a bad defence?  Did Ottawa "read" Peach's drop because we are predictable?  Incapable of disguising such a drop?  Or did Peach just not drop deep enough?  Is Peach athletically incapable of doing what is being asked of him?  Are the majority of Dlineman incapable of doing a drop like that?  Or is the defence flawed because it asks players to do things like that?

 

Now I'm not trying to pick on Peach, this is just an easy example to use to examine the design and failings of Etch's defence.  The receiver still had a DB on him, and would the play have worked out any differently if Peach had dropped 5 more yards?  Impossible to say.  He had already dropped about 7 yards.  I don't know if I'd expect more from Greg Peach on a backpedal.

 

But the question remains, with some personnel changes in our front 7, is the design of this defence one that can do the job it's supposed to.  I would say yes, but getting players of that caliber is a tall order.  A DE who can drop back 12 yards off the line and still have enough meat on him to stand his ground when the Riders Oline comes to town?  We're pretty much talking about Anwar Stewart in his prime.  That's not easy to find.

 

Finding 7 guys who can play a Greg Marshall 4-3?  Much easier.  Now that's vanilla.

 

Funny how there are 4 schools of thought here...which covers everything regarding OC and DC.

 

- Group 1 wants both MB and Etch gone (I'm in that group)

- Group 2 says that it's definitely MB that's out the door come end of season

- Group 3 says that it's definitely Etch that's out the door come end of season

- Group 4 (smallest group) thinks both should get another chance

 

Back when both of these guys were hired, they will have had to sell their vision of their offence/defence to OShea.  OShea isn't hostage to these guys and what they are doing, the framework of all of this was discussed back in February.  Now it's October.  Has OShea lost faith in either/both of these visions?

 

I'm in group 2 I guess.  OShea is a defensive guy.  He knows that Leggett changing his angle in the backfield means Williams doesn't score a touchdown.  He might not even get out of the backfield.  Does that fall on Etch?  He had a guy in position to make a play.  Not only did Leggett blow it, he compounded that mistake by letting Williams beat him outside.  So are we axing Leggett?  He had a bad game in Ottawa, but he's still a top 3 safety.

 

OShea will see that players are failing to execute the defence to it's design.  Really, they are.  Does that mean the players take the fall?  Or does OShea decide to change the design instead, presumably to make it easier to execute?  If Etch is still here next year, OShea went with option A.  Right now that's my guess.

 

I don't think Marcel will get the same benefit of the doubt Etch will.

[DR. CFL]

He hired leftovers and castoffs last year. It remains to be seen who if anyone he has the ability to attract to his staff after this year.

[17to85]

 

 

How can you blame the GM and scouting staff when they have to find the type of player the coaching staff wants? I find it hard to believe that there aren't any DT's wondering around out there somewhere but we haven't brought a single one in from day 1 because they want tweener's instead. Every short yardage play from Edmonton ended up in 3+ yard gains, there was zero push from the dline. It's a catch 22 situation.

 

The second half of the season is always the true measure of a team, just too small on the defensive front 7 and not enough talent on the offense, both need big changes.

It's not size, it's talent. Wild is not your prototypical MLB but he is playing damned well despite it. Turner isn't a behemoth at DL and he's fine. The guys we are using just aren't good enough. Anderson was playing well at DT but they lost him to injury and the replacements haven't been up to par. 

 

 

It's size and strength, they got rag dolled by bigger, stronger men. Line play always comes down to beating the guy across the line from you.

 

then how come the OL was so poor when all Joe Mack did was draft or recruit the biggest strongest most athletic OL out there? There is much more to it than simply size and strength. If you suck you suck no matter how big and strong you are. Need talented people who can do what is asked of them it doesn't really matter if they're big or not. Blaming the size is what people do when they don't want to put any thought into their game analysis. The issues with what Etchevary does don't start with the preference to have smaller faster players. The things he does with his players is the issues that needs to be talked about first and foremost. 

[B-F-F-C]

I wasn't happy when MOS hired Etch in the first place so I don't feel like I'm just hopping on the "fire Etch" bandwagon.  No one in the CFL would hire Etch so he goes and takes a job in the CIS.  Where he was subsequently fired.        

 

If that wasn't a big "red flag". I don't know what is.  

 

MOS was so set on hiring a DC with past CFL experience, his hand was forced to hire Etch vs. looking for a young guy who's defensive schemes are more conventional

[LeBird]

I know it won't be a popular opinion, but I'd keep Etch around provided we can improve the offensive line and the offensive playcalling.

 

Etcheverry's defense may not be popular around here (and I understand why) but he'd see a lot more success if we weren't on the field so much lately. That being said, a lot of people (myself included) would be jaded by the lack of interest in stopping the run. If he could just adjust that, everything else he does has had some impressive results.

 

If he does go, I would be curious to see Barron Miles here. I'd be curious to know who has the most involvement in Edmonton's D outside of Chris Jones too.

 

For OC, I'd definitely want a new face and first on my list would have to be Jarious Jackson at this point.

I would buy that argument if we were to do poorly in the second quarter but lately the d was badly outplayed in the first half when these guys should have been fresh. 

[pigseye]

 

 

 

How can you blame the GM and scouting staff when they have to find the type of player the coaching staff wants? I find it hard to believe that there aren't any DT's wondering around out there somewhere but we haven't brought a single one in from day 1 because they want tweener's instead. Every short yardage play from Edmonton ended up in 3+ yard gains, there was zero push from the dline. It's a catch 22 situation.

 

The second half of the season is always the true measure of a team, just too small on the defensive front 7 and not enough talent on the offense, both need big changes.

It's not size, it's talent. Wild is not your prototypical MLB but he is playing damned well despite it. Turner isn't a behemoth at DL and he's fine. The guys we are using just aren't good enough. Anderson was playing well at DT but they lost him to injury and the replacements haven't been up to par. 

 

 

It's size and strength, they got rag dolled by bigger, stronger men. Line play always comes down to beating the guy across the line from you.

 

then how come the OL was so poor when all Joe Mack did was draft or recruit the biggest strongest most athletic OL out there? There is much more to it than simply size and strength. If you suck you suck no matter how big and strong you are. Need talented people who can do what is asked of them it doesn't really matter if they're big or not. Blaming the size is what people do when they don't want to put any thought into their game analysis. The issues with what Etchevary does don't start with the preference to have smaller faster players. The things he does with his players is the issues that needs to be talked about first and foremost. 

 

 

You are as delusional as Etch if you think you can win with the right players in his defence. Every defence in the league and all the best ones are 43's built the traditional way for a reason. This has nothing to do with issues, it's common sense.