CM Punk Signs with UFC

[iso_55]

I could be a wrestler but never fight in the UFC. It's way tougher. One kick to the head & it's lights out. 

[New_Earth_Mud]

There is so many people with zero knowledge of what they are talking about, legitimately trying to argue things they don't have a full grasp of... It's hilarious.

Wrestling is VERY violent.. People get hurt all the time.. Broken noses and concussions are very common place.. You telling me a 280lb guy accidentally kneeing, elbowing or punching you in the face isn't the same as someone in the UFC landing a hook or hard jab?

Brock Lesnar wasn't ran out of the UFC, he had to "retire" because he was unable to train hard enough to be competitive.. He didn't look out of place in the octagon and would have continued to be a huge draw if he could have continued to fight.. The heavyweight division, while not stacked with talent like middleweight or welterweight, has more then enough talent to be competitive now a days.. It's not like 10 years ago where any bigger guy that could wrestle or fight was able to be competitive..

 

 

Maybe im reading this wrong and not understanding...

 

But are you saying someone accidentally hitting you in the WWE is the same thing as someone trying to actually knock you the F out in the UFC?

 

WWE is a show and im positive they are not trying to hurt each other. They get hurt and no doubt hit to a point. But the idea of it is not the same.

 

The guy across the ring in the UFC is actually wanting to hurt you and beat you up.

 

WWE guy across the ring is only trying to put on a good show.

[The Unknown Poster]

I could be a wrestler but never fight in the UFC. It's way tougher. One kick to the head & it's lights out.

Lol you are comparing them as though you stepped into either tomorrow? Because if you put in the required trading for both then your statement would be different. And without the required training no you could not be a wrestler tomorrow.

[The Unknown Poster]

There is so many people with zero knowledge of what they are talking about, legitimately trying to argue things they don't have a full grasp of... It's hilarious.

Wrestling is VERY violent.. People get hurt all the time.. Broken noses and concussions are very common place.. You telling me a 280lb guy accidentally kneeing, elbowing or punching you in the face isn't the same as someone in the UFC landing a hook or hard jab?

Brock Lesnar wasn't ran out of the UFC, he had to "retire" because he was unable to train hard enough to be competitive.. He didn't look out of place in the octagon and would have continued to be a huge draw if he could have continued to fight.. The heavyweight division, while not stacked with talent like middleweight or welterweight, has more then enough talent to be competitive now a days.. It's not like 10 years ago where any bigger guy that could wrestle or fight was able to be competitive..

Maybe im reading this wrong and not understanding...

But are you saying someone accidentally hitting you in the WWE is the same thing as someone trying to actually knock you the F out in the UFC?

WWE is a show and im positive they are not trying to hurt each other. They get hurt and no doubt hit to a point. But the idea of it is not the same.

The guy across the ring in the UFC is actually wanting to hurt you and beat you up.

WWE guy across the ring is only trying to put on a good show.

Keep in mind that in mma you're trying not to get hit. In wwe you aren't duckinf shots because you expect the person you're working work to not hit you. Punks last concussion was in January from a clothesline that should never cause a concussion. If it was true that real punches always hurt and fake ones didn't then every mma fighter would be injured after a fight. They aren't.

In wrestling you entrust the people you work with with your body. Far more serious injuries in wrestling than mma simple because of the nature of what you're doing and the prone position you're in. This has nothing to do with fake vs real.

[bigg jay]

It's very hard to compare the two in terms of injuries (IMO).  MMA the damage & injuries for the most part are immediate from fights/training while accidents aside (like Punk getting concussed from a simple clothsline), wrestling injuries seem to be more cumulative after years of taking bumps.  That's not to say they both don't have injuries from the other category, it's just a general observation.

 

As it relates to the last couple posts - no getting the odd potato in wrestling is NOT the same and taking multiple shots from a trained fighter who is trying to take your head off.  Taking an unexpected shot or two can definitely do damage but the sheer volume of strikes an mma fighter takes will always outweigh that.  Even the most elusive mma fighters get hit (ie Lyoto Machida) and have been KO'd but how often do you see a wrestler legit getting their lights put out? 

[The Unknown Poster]

It's very hard to compare the two in terms of injuries (IMO).  MMA the damage & injuries for the most part are immediate from fights/training while accidents aside (like Punk getting concussed from a simple clothsline), wrestling injuries seem to be more cumulative after years of taking bumps.  That's not to say they both don't have injuries from the other category, it's just a general observation.

 

As it relates to the last couple posts - no getting the odd potato in wrestling is NOT the same and taking multiple shots from a trained fighter who is trying to take your head off.  Taking an unexpected shot or two can definitely do damage but the sheer volume of strikes an mma fighter takes will always outweigh that.  Even the most elusive mma fighters get hit (ie Lyoto Machida) and have been KO'd but how often do you see a wrestler legit getting their lights put out? 

Happens far more than people think.  Maybe not out cold (although that happens), but concussions happen a lot.  Up until recently, when WWE showed more concern for concussions (notwithstanding Punk's allegations), the sheer volume of injuries and concussions is mind boggling and scary.  There is little doubt in my mind that brain trauma at least partially led Chris Benoit to kill his wife and child.  Thats pretty scary.

 

There is far more recovery time in MMA.  And because that sport is regulated, I think there is more over-sight.  In WWE, you're being cared for by the company doctor and as Punk detailed, sometimes that doctor is more interested in how fast you can get back on the road then in making sure you've made a full recovery.  In UFC, guys will pull out of major fights if they are hurt.  In WWE, the pressure is to get through the next big match.  That might change with the canibalizing of PPV revenue in wrestling.

 

The only legit fight that Punk has ever been in that people know about is an impromptu altercation with Teddy Hart.  Reportedly Punk lost.  Teddy is a trained boxer and would be at least a decent wrestler having trained with his family.  I dont know if that tells us anything about Punk.  Im a big Brock fan but to me, the key to beating him was hitting him because as big and strong as he is, he clearly did not like getting hit.  he could take hits, but he didnt like it and it would put him on the defensive immediately.  I would suspect the strategy against Punk would be the same, hit him.

 

In wrestling Punk came up working a harder style so he will be used to taking stiff shots, which is not the same as taking full on strikes, but again, you have to consider that in UFC, when a guy is throwing a strike, you're trying to block/avoid it so the ones that land arent landing full force (hopefully).  In a stiff wrestling style, you arent trying to avoid being hit.  The shots arent coming full speed but you're taking hits.  So he *might* be used to the sensation of being popped to a degree.  It will come down to how hard he gets hit and how well he can absorb them. 

 

Working in bars for 20 years I saw big tough guys go down to one punches all the time.  It used to be a bit of a running joke that I wasnt much of a fighter, more of a take them down/restrain them type so occasionally I'd take 4 or 5 strikes in the process.  Fortunately, I have a hard head and a hard jaw (got concussed way eaiser the handful of times I wrestled).  But we wont know Punk's ability to take a shot until he takes a few.

 

As for his wrestling ability, he isnt Brock Lesnar, with an NCAA background.  He has no real credentials right now.  At his age, I dont know.  I predict he does 2-3 fights, win or lose, strikes "UFC" off his bucket list and moves on to the next thing.  He reminds me of Brock in the sense they are both strong personalities with a crazy desire to be the best at whatever they set out to do.  They both made enough money to choose their projects.  For Brock, it was the NFL and then MMA.  For Punk, it's writing comics and UFC.  Both walked away from WWE because they could and because they were burned out.  WWE was never Brock's love.  He does it because he's good at it and can make lots of money.  He's unique in that when he went back, people thought it would be hard to get him to do business (lose) but Brock's position is you pay me and Ill lose to anyone you want (which he proved by losing his first match which was absolutely ludicrous from a business perspective).  Punk is burned out now, but like Brock, after doing some bucket list things I would strongly suspect he will go back to WWE because he's good at it and can make lots of money.  The difference is, while Brock never loved pro wrestling, Punk did.  He might hate it right now, but once you're in the business and love it, you can never really leave.  Wrestling is Hotel California.  Punk will go back.

[sweep the leg]

Like TUP said, wrestling injuries can be much worse b/c of what they're doing. For example, nobody in the UFC is jumping off the cage onto a table outside the ring. This risk of catastrophic injury is much higher in WWE than UFC.

 

As far as just the punches go, nobody in WWE is taking a bomb like Hendo landed on Bisping.

 

A close friend of my parents was a professional wrestler back in the 80s. His career was ended when when he took the Road Warriors finishing move and landed on the back of his head/neck.

[The Unknown Poster]

Like TUP said, wrestling injuries can be much worse b/c of what they're doing. For example, nobody in the UFC is jumping off the cage onto a table outside the ring. This risk of catastrophic injury is much higher in WWE than UFC.

 

As far as just the punches go, nobody in WWE is taking a bomb like Hendo landed on Bisping.

 

A close friend of my parents was a professional wrestler back in the 80s. His career was ended when when he took the Road Warriors finishing move and landed on the back of his head/neck.

The doomsday device broke the neck of one of the Godwins too.  I actually brought the LOD here for a show in 2002 and our guy took the finisher but not the flip bump.  So instead of flipping over backwards, he took a flat back bump which is what a lot of guys started doing later on in LOD's careers.  The flip is way cooler looking but terribly dangerous if you dont get the rotation.

 

AJ Styles has had three guys in the last year or so suffer broken necks from the finisher he;s been using for over a decade including two in just the last couple of months I believe. 

 

WWE banned the piledriver, a move used for decades because of the risk involved.  In fact it was Punk who used it in a match a couple years back and got serious heat for using a banned move.

[bigg jay]

 

It's very hard to compare the two in terms of injuries (IMO).  MMA the damage & injuries for the most part are immediate from fights/training while accidents aside (like Punk getting concussed from a simple clothsline), wrestling injuries seem to be more cumulative after years of taking bumps.  That's not to say they both don't have injuries from the other category, it's just a general observation.

 

As it relates to the last couple posts - no getting the odd potato in wrestling is NOT the same and taking multiple shots from a trained fighter who is trying to take your head off.  Taking an unexpected shot or two can definitely do damage but the sheer volume of strikes an mma fighter takes will always outweigh that.  Even the most elusive mma fighters get hit (ie Lyoto Machida) and have been KO'd but how often do you see a wrestler legit getting their lights put out? 

Happens far more than people think.  Maybe not out cold (although that happens), but concussions happen a lot.  Up until recently, when WWE showed more concern for concussions (notwithstanding Punk's allegations), the sheer volume of injuries and concussions is mind boggling and scary.  There is little doubt in my mind that brain trauma at least partially led Chris Benoit to kill his wife and child.  Thats pretty scary.

 

There is far more recovery time in MMA.  And because that sport is regulated, I think there is more over-sight.  In WWE, you're being cared for by the company doctor and as Punk detailed, sometimes that doctor is more interested in how fast you can get back on the road then in making sure you've made a full recovery.  In UFC, guys will pull out of major fights if they are hurt.  In WWE, the pressure is to get through the next big match.  That might change with the canibalizing of PPV revenue in wrestling.

 

Absolutely it happens more than people think, but that goes for both mma and wrestling.  The amount of mma concussions (and injuries in general) that are reported are way lower than the actual number for the simple fact that unless you are an upper echelon guy, you don't get paid if you don't fight.  There was recently a fairly high level fight in Edmonton where one guy hid the fact that his arm was broken from the commission doctor and went out & fought because he couldn't afford not too.  Predictably, he lost and now has been suspended for the fact that he lied about the injury.  Now, because he got caught (he was dumb enough to make a pre-fight video talking about it but posted it online after the fight), he's going to be under a lot of scrutiny every time he fights now - at least he should be.   He fights mainly in Edmonton and their commission is well known for being a joke so chances are it'll be business as usual for him.

 

A lot of fighters will also tell you that training is way harder than the actual fight & that's where most of the injuries happen.  Those will all go unreported unless it's a high profile fighter and the injury is bad enough that they do have to pull out of a fight.  Training has gotten better (ie smarter) than back in the day (read up on training at Miletich Fighting Systems for some good "horror stories") but like any sport, the compete level & pressure makes guys perform when they shouldn't.

[Atomic]

WWE banned the piledriver, a move used for decades because of the risk involved. In fact it was Punk who used it in a match a couple years back and got serious heat for using a banned move.

That was Punk vs. Cena on Raw and it was one of the best matches I've seen in the last few years. Really makes me wish Punk would just go back to wrestling.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

 

It's very hard to compare the two in terms of injuries (IMO).  MMA the damage & injuries for the most part are immediate from fights/training while accidents aside (like Punk getting concussed from a simple clothsline), wrestling injuries seem to be more cumulative after years of taking bumps.  That's not to say they both don't have injuries from the other category, it's just a general observation.

 

As it relates to the last couple posts - no getting the odd potato in wrestling is NOT the same and taking multiple shots from a trained fighter who is trying to take your head off.  Taking an unexpected shot or two can definitely do damage but the sheer volume of strikes an mma fighter takes will always outweigh that.  Even the most elusive mma fighters get hit (ie Lyoto Machida) and have been KO'd but how often do you see a wrestler legit getting their lights put out? 

Happens far more than people think.  Maybe not out cold (although that happens), but concussions happen a lot.  Up until recently, when WWE showed more concern for concussions (notwithstanding Punk's allegations), the sheer volume of injuries and concussions is mind boggling and scary.  There is little doubt in my mind that brain trauma at least partially led Chris Benoit to kill his wife and child.  Thats pretty scary.

 

There is far more recovery time in MMA.  And because that sport is regulated, I think there is more over-sight.  In WWE, you're being cared for by the company doctor and as Punk detailed, sometimes that doctor is more interested in how fast you can get back on the road then in making sure you've made a full recovery.  In UFC, guys will pull out of major fights if they are hurt.  In WWE, the pressure is to get through the next big match.  That might change with the canibalizing of PPV revenue in wrestling.

 

Absolutely it happens more than people think, but that goes for both mma and wrestling.  The amount of mma concussions (and injuries in general) that are reported are way lower than the actual number for the simple fact that unless you are an upper echelon guy, you don't get paid if you don't fight.  There was recently a fairly high level fight in Edmonton where one guy hid the fact that his arm was broken from the commission doctor and went out & fought because he couldn't afford not too.  Predictably, he lost and now has been suspended for the fact that he lied about the injury.  Now, because he got caught (he was dumb enough to make a pre-fight video talking about it but posted it online after the fight), he's going to be under a lot of scrutiny every time he fights now - at least he should be.   He fights mainly in Edmonton and their commission is well known for being a joke so chances are it'll be business as usual for him.

 

A lot of fighters will also tell you that training is way harder than the actual fight & that's where most of the injuries happen.  Those will all go unreported unless it's a high profile fighter and the injury is bad enough that they do have to pull out of a fight.  Training has gotten better (ie smarter) than back in the day (read up on training at Miletich Fighting Systems for some good "horror stories") but like any sport, the compete level & pressure makes guys perform when they shouldn't.

 

I would strongly argue that the amount of times a guy lies about an injury happens far more in WWE then in UFC.  Or "works through it".  But ofcourse, the point shouldnt be wrestling vs MMA.  There will always be MMA fans that detest wrestling as "fake" but there have been some truly great pro wrestlers in MMA (Shamrock, Severn, Brock etc) but very few UFC fighters were able to make it in wrestling.  Rampage loved it and got over the idea of having to train every day pretty quickly.  King Mo is still under contract to TNA reportedly but unlikely to actually do anything.

 

Ofcourse, if Im defending UFC I point out that Kurt Angle couldnt pass a physical to join UFC and yet still wrestles (though to be fair, WWE wont take him back either and TNA doesnt care about the health of its workers seemingly).  Then again, Dana wanted Angle to go through TUF to get a contract whereas Angle wanted a main roster fight deal.  If Angle was 5 years younger and asked Dana for a spot today, its a no brainer Dana would do it.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

WWE banned the piledriver, a move used for decades because of the risk involved. In fact it was Punk who used it in a match a couple years back and got serious heat for using a banned move.

That was Punk vs. Cena on Raw and it was one of the best matches I've seen in the last few years. Really makes me wish Punk would just go back to wrestling.

 

When he finally does go back, he will have more power and a bigger push so it will be better for everyone.

 

WWE is really stifling right now.  I'd suggest watching NXT if you want to see could wrestling.  The myth of Vince McMahon, genus, is really becoming apparently.  I have my reservations about Hunter in charge but NXT is really good and RAW isnt.  So there's that.

[sweep the leg]

  There will always be MMA fans that detest wrestling as "fake" but there have been some truly great pro wrestlers in MMA (Shamrock, Severn, Brock etc) but very few UFC fighters were able to make it in wrestling. 

 

 

Severn & Shamrock were MMA fighters before they were wrestlers.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

  There will always be MMA fans that detest wrestling as "fake" but there have been some truly great pro wrestlers in MMA (Shamrock, Severn, Brock etc) but very few UFC fighters were able to make it in wrestling. 

 

 

Severn & Shamrock were MMA fighters before they were wrestlers.

 

Severn appeared in UFC around the same time he pro wrestled.  1994/95.  Prior to that he did wrestling competitions, not MMA.  But he was in UFC before being well known as a pro wrestler and was never really an accomplished North American pro wrestler but his credentials worked well for him over-seas and a lot of UFC mark wrestling promoters booked him for wrestling shows.  I saw him wrestle in Winnipeg in 2002 where the wrestling promoter, who was not actually a trained wrestler and must have been 50 years old booked himself in a match with Dan where he forced Dan to tap out during a fall.  ugh

 

Shamrock was a pro wrestler first and worked in Japan where they were doing hybrid work/shoot promotions which is what led him to shootfighting.  He was pretty well known as a pro wrestler when he went to UFC.

 

Ludvig Borga (WWE) fought in UFC also but didnt do well if I recall correctly.  Bam Bam Bigelow did an MMA fight and was beaten quickly if I recall.  Bobby Lashley has done okay.  But granted I know a lot more about wrestling then MMA.

[Rich]

 

 

WWE banned the piledriver, a move used for decades because of the risk involved. In fact it was Punk who used it in a match a couple years back and got serious heat for using a banned move.

That was Punk vs. Cena on Raw and it was one of the best matches I've seen in the last few years. Really makes me wish Punk would just go back to wrestling.

 

When he finally does go back, he will have more power and a bigger push so it will be better for everyone.

 

WWE is really stifling right now.  I'd suggest watching NXT if you want to see could wrestling.  The myth of Vince McMahon, genus, is really becoming apparently.  I have my reservations about Hunter in charge but NXT is really good and RAW isnt.  So there's that.

 

 

I haven't followed wrestling in a really long time.   Probably not since the Monday Night wars era (and maybe a little bit after WCW folded).  

 

They say wrestling is cyclical.  Do you see anything bringing it back to a high (or has it already been there and I just haven't noticed).  I remember buying PPVs to watch the shock value of what somebody like Foley would do in a main event.  My interest started to wane after he retired.  At the same time, I also don't think it is right or realistic to expect people to put their bodies through what he would do.

[sweep the leg]

Well, I guess I learn something new everyday. I was pretty young when UFC 1 came out so I didn't know any of that back story on Shamrock.

[sweep the leg]

 

I haven't followed wrestling in a really long time.   Probably not since the Monday Night wars era (and maybe a little bit after WCW folded).  

 

 

That's pretty much the same time I lost interest. I moved on to watching MMA instead.

 

I actually went to the WWE event in Winnipeg last winter with my son. He's eight now and that's about the age I fell in love with wrestling. He loved watching it live, but can't be bothered to sit down and watch it on tv. There's no Hulk Hogan type of hero to really catch a kid's attention now like how it happened for me.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

 

 

WWE banned the piledriver, a move used for decades because of the risk involved. In fact it was Punk who used it in a match a couple years back and got serious heat for using a banned move.

That was Punk vs. Cena on Raw and it was one of the best matches I've seen in the last few years. Really makes me wish Punk would just go back to wrestling.

 

When he finally does go back, he will have more power and a bigger push so it will be better for everyone.

 

WWE is really stifling right now.  I'd suggest watching NXT if you want to see could wrestling.  The myth of Vince McMahon, genus, is really becoming apparently.  I have my reservations about Hunter in charge but NXT is really good and RAW isnt.  So there's that.

 

 

I haven't followed wrestling in a really long time.   Probably not since the Monday Night wars era (and maybe a little bit after WCW folded).  

 

They say wrestling is cyclical.  Do you see anything bringing it back to a high (or has it already been there and I just haven't noticed).  I remember buying PPVs to watch the shock value of what somebody like Foley would do in a main event.  My interest started to wane after he retired.  At the same time, I also don't think it is right or realistic to expect people to put their bodies through what he would do.

 

The "wrestling is cyclical" argument probably doesnt apply anymore.  Im not sure what would bring it back because Im not sure what there thats left to be done.

 

The problem is, WWE is such a monster that they control the North American (and most of the world) business so they arent as prone to outside influences anymore.  And they've really gotten away from what made them successful in an effort to a) play it safe embrace the myth that Vince is an entertainment mogul and not a pro wrestling promoter.

 

On Steve Austin's podcast a couple of weeks ago, Vince said pro wrestling was what his dad did.  Vince is very out of touch.  And the idea he's a genius doesnt hold much water anymore.  He basically had one idea: National expansion.  But national expansion was coming one way or the other.  Vince just did it first and did it best and didnt honour old deals in the process.  That was 1984.  And the WWE took off in the 80's as pro wrestling.  Vince gambled on Wrestlemania and was lucky to win.  Mr T did it for him.  He was set to go bankrupt until Mr T did a ton of media including SNL the week of the show (Mr T almost backed out).

 

Vince was almost bankrupt again by the mid 90's.  He hung onto his old notions of 80's wrestling.  In his mind, WWE succeeded on the back of Hulk Hogan in the 80's (which is not untrue) so he was always looking for the next ONE guy to be Hulk Hogan.  He saw how his dad cycled top guys out but the era of a guy that looked like Bruno or Backlund being on top was long over.  And the steroid era was ending and Vince had a lot of trouble accepting that.  Randy Savage should have been a huge superstar but his rise basically set up Hogan's return.  And Vince was always looking to move Hogan out and looking to move the "old" guys out, like Savage.  Thats why Savage went to WCW, because he wanted to wrestle and pitched a year long angle with a young Shawn Michaels that Vince declined (plus the rumour about Savage and Steph).

 

Vince was a one trick pony.  In the 90's, with WWE in decline, Shane McMahon, who had his finger on the pulse of "cool" way better then his dad (and probably rightfully so) was begging Vince to go more adult.  Shane watched ECW and wanted a smarter, more adult product.  Vince resisted.  (Shane also named Kevin Nash "Diesel", lobbied to sign Chris Jericho and Big Show).

 

Eric Bichoff watched a Japanese angle generate a ton of heat using a worked "invasion" storyline and that gave him the idea for the nWo.  It was only after seeing WCW's ratings and buyrates skyrocket and on the verge of bankruptcy that Vince was finally willing to go adult.  Plus, he had Shawn Michaels and his buddies who were pushing for it as well.  That led to the Survivor Series 97 screwjob (though business had already turned around on the back of the DX vs Hart Foundation angle) and Vince back-doored into being his own best top heel.

 

Steve Austin was brought in as the silent "Ringmaster".  Failing terribly, he finally convinced Vince to let him be himself.

 

The fact Vince also had Vince Russo writing for the magazine who was pushing for adult storylines didnt hurt.  Vince was listening to old school guys like Patterson and Cornette.  Russo provided a fresh voice and a new direction.  But you go back and watch the Attitude era, it doesnt hold up.  But it was different and a product of its time.

 

Today, there would never be a Steve Austin or a Rock because guys are so heavily scripted and there is a formula they follow where a guy comes in, gets a push, gets over and then is purposely cooled off to "test" him (look at Bray Wyatt) or they hand pick a guy to push to the detriment of others.  Batista is a good example of this as he came back with the idea of the big push.  Meanwhile Daniel Bryan was resonating with fans and WWE did everything they could to cool off Bryan.  Even now, their hand picked guy is Roman Reigns yet Dean Ambrose is way more over but he's being cooled off with stupid segment.  These guys have a lot of trouble finding their own voices in today's WWE.

 

WWE has 50 writers.  Steph getting promoted to head of creative was the worst thing for WWE.  She hired all these hollywood writers and made the shows sterile and boring.  Vince would never fire her, no matter how bad the ratings got.  They brought in WCW and ECW and had a massive PPV buy rate for Invasion and pissed it all away and that angle became the biggest example of burning money of all time.  Again, Vince did ONE thing, the national expansion.  Eric Bichoff and Paul Heyman did more to make WWE a success in the late 90's and once WWE won the war, they went away from Adult (which was inevitable anyway) and we got the Steph era.

 

Today, WWE can barely keep its own angles straight.  They pissed away the most amazing roster of talent in wrestling history just a few years ago to an extent where they might be at their thinnest right now.  There was a time, after they pushed Jim Ross out, that their development program didnt want anyone with a wrestling background.  They wanted body builders or college athletes, guys over 6'3" that they could teach "the WWE way".  They closed down three different development programs, one of which (Deep South Wrestling) closed admist accusations of abuse by its trainer (who is back by the way).

 

The only bright spot in WWE is Hunter.  Which is saying something because his rise was all about who he knew, who he dated and once he had some power, he squashed everyone that might get over, cutting guys balls off left and right.  If Hunter came along today with the same scenario he debuted with, he would have been released within six months.  But as an executive, he shows far more patience and intelligence and he runs NXT which went back to signing pro wrestlers, even small guys who could work.  Vince doesnt believe in pushing anyone who doesnt look like they could win a fight which is why he was reluctant to push Bryan.  And even after giving Bryan the WM push (because they were afraid the fans would hijack the show), they booked him poorly afterwards (like Rey Misterio who Vince never wanted to push and when he finally did, booked him as such a weak champion that it became a self fullfilling prophecy).

 

So, can wrestling ever have another golden age?  I dont know.  WWE will always exist and always be a juggernaught.  Its a transitionary time right now, moving away from Pay Per View to The Network, which has not gone as well as they thought.  But it will eventually work and mean WWE will succeed as a revenue source for a 100 years.  But as far as critical acclaim, and wrestling bleeding into the main stream like it did in the late 90's?  It could only happen if they completely changed the way they do creative.  That wont happen as long as Vince is there.  Hunter?  Maybe.  The one thing about Hunter is, he holds a grudge and can be petty.  Vince will work with anyone who can make money, no matter what their personal issue is.  Hunter isnt like that.  On the flip side, Hunter is the one that made deals with Bruno and Warrior and guys that hated Vince.

 

Its hard to say, really.  We wont know til Vince is gone and Hunter is in charge.  But if he cuts the Hollywood writers and brings in guys who actually understand wrestling, it would make the shows better.  Thats step one.  But you need an Austin or a Rock to truly resonate.  Bryan has been the best cross over star in a long time and that was without support from WWE.  Punk had the potential because he was sort of counter culture and spoke to a different audience.  Brock to an extent too but Brock's drawing power has been killed by how he has been booked.  There are guys in NXT that could be big stars.  We'll see....NXT is written by one guy (Ryan Ward, I believe) and Dusty Rhodes is there too.  Ofcourse thats a one hour show once a week and not countless hours of TV per week so you need more than one guy writing but you need a vision and you need people to make sense of it.

 

After Russo, before Steph was a head booker named Chris Kreski who actually came from Hollywood.  But he was ridiculed at the time for using storyboards to lay out angles.  But he booked the most critcally acclaimed and financially successful time in WWE.  Some would say it was the Russo momentum that Kreski simply continued.  Who knows.  But when Vince demoted him to make room for Steph, the decline was obvious.  Kreski had pretty layered angles (he wrote Mcmhaon-Helmsley era story). Personally, my favourite PPV is Survivor Series 1998, written by Russo (though Kreski might have been there) - perfect example of true story-telling in wrestling.

 

Sorry for the novel...but Im passionate about wrestling.  So the answer is yes there could be another rise...but most likely not with Vince McMahon in charge.

[Rich]

Interesting read, thanks for sharing.

 

At some point you have to think that a new promotion will come along and disrupt the industry again (as ECW did).  WWE either adapts and copies it or withers.

 

You see it happen in most industries at some point.  Things stagnate, someone revolutionizes it, the industry changes and adapts.   As long as there is money to be made doing something, someone somewhere will figure out a way to get a cut.  

 

May not happen until Vince is gone, just as long as there is a core fan base to keep supporting it until it happens.

[Mike]

There's a lot of talent in the WWE right now but Vince McMahon won't get out of his own way. It's hard to even determine the quality of writers they have for Monday Night Raw right now because by all accounts, Vince basically does their job for them.

 

I don't watch Raw beyond some casual interest I may have ... I'll keep the channel on if Rollins, Ambrose or a handful of others are on the screen. But I've watched the NXT product and not only is the talent a collection of some of the best in the world (KENTA, Devitt, Steen, Generico, Pac ... that's enough right there to catch my interest) but the writing and production is incredibly on point as well.

[sweep the leg]

Where do you find NXT on tv?

[The Unknown Poster]

The problem is we can look at WWE and say its stagnating.  Vince doesnt think it is.  I call it the "bubble" where they are so inside of it, they are completely clueless about what the common fans think.  Usually if fans react in a way they dont like, they blame the fans.  Vince is in the bubble.  And he's also surrounded by people in the bubble.  And his plethora of writers write for only one person - Vince. 

 

Jim Ross was fired 3 or 4 times.  He was one of the few people who would tell Vince he was wrong.  No one does that.  No one wants to be fired.  They write to make Vince happy.  Vince likes low brow humour so they write low brow humour. 

 

Its almost as if Vince hates wrestling.  Everything is wrong.  Everything must be changed.  They didnt want Jim Ross calling the action because he didnt look good enough.  They dont want Michael Cole calling wrestling like a sport.  They dont want a sport presentation at all.  They are so full of their own egos and bullshit, they dont have a clue what they're doing.

 

Here's a recent example.  Charlotte Flair is the NXT women's champion.  She is a natural athlete.  She's fantastic.  She is unique in that she's very tall and very athletic and has a lot of charisma.  They debut her on RAW four days before the last NXT special as a way to promote the special.  They have her lose in two minutes.  They should have spent those two minutes showing a pile of money burning instead.  This isnt genius level stuff.  It's common sense.  And then Hunter subtly admits it was BS on his weekly conference call.  So whos running things?  What power does Hunter have if he cant even get one of his pet projects protected?

 

It's Vince.  And it sucks.  Because Vince wont stop until he dies and he's probably going to live forever.

[The Unknown Poster]

Where do you find NXT on tv?

It airs on WWE Network and is syndicated though Im not sure where.  You can see it online.

 

I suggest youtubing.  if you youtube Finn Balor's entrance, its a small example of how NXT is different in presentation (and how cool the former Devitt is).

 

Sammy Zayn (El Generico who I booked a couple of times) is their champion and one of the best workers in the world.  Kevin Steen just started there as Kevin Owens (A homage to his son and Owen Hart).  KENTA is there as Mike said, though I dont think he's going to get the opportunity he deserves.  They have some really, really great women wrestlers.  And there are a few guys out there that could walk in there right now and amazing, like Kenny Omega (a Winnipegger who challenges for the World Junior Title in New Japan on Jan 2nd).

[The Unknown Poster]

There's a lot of talent in the WWE right now but Vince McMahon won't get out of his own way. It's hard to even determine the quality of writers they have for Monday Night Raw right now because by all accounts, Vince basically does their job for them.

 

I don't watch Raw beyond some casual interest I may have ... I'll keep the channel on if Rollins, Ambrose or a handful of others are on the screen. But I've watched the NXT product and not only is the talent a collection of some of the best in the world (KENTA, Devitt, Steen, Generico, Pac ... that's enough right there to catch my interest) but the writing and production is incredibly on point as well.

If I was suddenly in charge in WWE here is what I'd do:

 

Make it SPORTS entertainment.  UFC isnt kicking WWE's butt but they took a lot of fans who longed for realism.  I'd go back to a sports presentation with a more realistic story telling.  Which is not to say I'd get rid of wrestling gimmicks, not at all.  In fact sometimes I think WWE is so determined to own everyones names that they give guys goofy "real" names, like Dean Ambrose.  Guys get names before they get gimmicks but they need gimmicks, even if they are realistic gimmicks.

 

I'd have commentary that called the action. 

 

I'd emphasize the championship belts and wins and losses. 

 

I'd change the production to look different and I'd make RAW and Smackdown look different from each other.  I dont know if I'd turn Cena heel because i think the ship has sailed, but I'd strongly consider it before he completely doesnt matter anymore.

 

I'd look around the Indy scene for bookers I could develop.  They look for workers, refs, announcers.  But they dont want bookers.  Wrestling is not like normal TV.  I'd find talented young bookers and bring them in and develop them.

 

Id tell organic stories.  Example:  They have Dusty Rhodes, Dustin Rhodes and Cody Rhodes.  All of them are great.  All of them can promos.  its essentially three generations of Rhodes.  They own video of all of them for decades.  And Dusty is in NXT teaching guys to work, Cody has the worst gimmick of all time and Dustin is just spinning his tires.  Tell the Rhodes story.  They started down this path when Dustin came back but went in a different direction because they didnt want guys getting over.  Dusty, in a promo, waved his hand in Steph's face and "hushed" her in a moment that got a big pop but was perceived in the back as disrespectful.  I dont think Dusty was on TV after that.  Thats the kind of ego BS that has to stop.  So Dusty gets exiled to Florida and his kids are burried in a go nowhere gimmick.

 

Basically Hunter is our only hope.  And there is pushback from the financial community about him.  Vince has been working very hard to try and prep Hunter to be an EVP of a billion dollar company.  I always suspected Shane might have to come back one day just to make shareholders more comfortable.

[Mike]

Where do you find NXT on tv?

 

Sportsnet 360 on Thursdays.