Bellefeuille: Burke decides QB on Saturday

[Adrenaline_x]

 

 

Reilly to EDM was in the books before WPG was even a participant. Argument is a non starter.

Again, we really don't know that to be true. An offer was made by Wally to get Reilly to Joe Mack. Mack refused. So Reilly was traded to Edmonton. If he would have been traded to Winnipeg then he could have done the deal as Reilly wasn't a free agent yet & still under contract to the Bombers. Was it a risk? Yes, surely. A HUGE risk & making that trade would have been ballsy because of it but considering where our first round pick is now, I'd have done it. And made bloody sure I signed him. We absolutely do not know if Reilly preferred Edmonton over Winnipeg. They traded for him & got the deal done. We weren't privy & never will be to the discussions in Mack's office, so all total speculation about that. We don't know what was said. Bottom line, that Reilly was the best opportunity to try & fix the mess at qb we have now. Not doing anything has resulted in a losing team as well as a scorcehed Earth battlefield with Bomber managemnt & coaching.... So, maybe the risk Mack took was really standing pat. In the end, doing the deal or not doing the deal cost people their jobs. The repercussions are still going on. I'd like to believe that it was out of Joe's hands but c'mon.... Looking at how he's done business in the past, I find that hard to believe.

 

 

So then please explain why the following two things occurred ...

a ) Wally refused to let Winnipeg talk shop with Reilly prior to a trade, but allowed Edmonton to

b ) Reilly did not opt to wait until free agency before signing a deal in order to maximize his earnings

 

Devils Advocate but there are possible reasons.

 

a)Wally Hated Joe and didn't want him to be able to sign him

a)Wally figured joe was desperate enough to trade away picks without having to discuss things with Rielly/

 

b)Reilly liked the offer by Edmonton and decided to take what was in front of him vs waiting

Edmonton put the screws to him and said sign now, or we are not interested.

wpg was going to offer less money (tampering? its not punished in the cfl)

[pigseye]

If we're going to cherry-pick facts about trades that moved quarterbacks to teams other than Winnipeg in an effort to slam Mack, why aren't we ripping him for not holding on to Jyles for one more year and trading him, a first-round pick and Justin Palardy to Edmonton for Ricky Ray? I mean, why hit singles when you can nail the grand slam of revisionist history? A few tweaks here, a forgotten fact there, and Ricky Ray should be lofting corner routes to Greg Carr, who also would still be here putting up all-star numbers if it wasn't for Mack.

Damn you Joe Mack.

 

Close but by acquiring Reilly he could have turned around and traded him to Hervey for Nichols and his pick back or depending on how bad Hervey wanted him, made Reilly an offer he couldn't refuse to stay.

 

In either case, the situation looks more like a half hearted attempt.

[Mike]

 

If we're going to cherry-pick facts about trades that moved quarterbacks to teams other than Winnipeg in an effort to slam Mack, why aren't we ripping him for not holding on to Jyles for one more year and trading him, a first-round pick and Justin Palardy to Edmonton for Ricky Ray? I mean, why hit singles when you can nail the grand slam of revisionist history? A few tweaks here, a forgotten fact there, and Ricky Ray should be lofting corner routes to Greg Carr, who also would still be here putting up all-star numbers if it wasn't for Mack.

Damn you Joe Mack.

 

Close but by acquiring Reilly he could have turned around and traded him to Hervey for Nichols and his pick back or depending on how bad Hervey wanted him, made Reilly an offer he couldn't refuse to stay.

 

In either case, the situation looks more like a half hearted attempt.

 

 

Right, because that makes sense.

 

Two horse race, one horse can't sign a deal and the other horse is just going to give up assets to get him.

[Logan007]

 

 

 

 

 

Reilly to EDM was in the books before WPG was even a participant. Argument is a non starter.

Again, we really don't know that to be true. An offer was made by Wally to get Reilly to Joe Mack. Mack refused. So Reilly was traded to Edmonton. If he would have been traded to Winnipeg then he could have done the deal as Reilly wasn't a free agent yet & still under contract to the Bombers. Was it a risk? Yes, surely. A HUGE risk & making that trade would have been ballsy because of it but considering where our first round pick is now, I'd have done it. And made bloody sure I signed him. We absolutely do not know if Reilly preferred Edmonton over Winnipeg. They traded for him & got the deal done. We weren't privy & never will be to the discussions in Mack's office, so all total speculation about that. We don't know what was said. Bottom line, that Reilly was the best opportunity to try & fix the mess at qb we have now. Not doing anything has resulted in a losing team as well as a scorcehed Earth battlefield with Bomber managemnt & coaching.... So, maybe the risk Mack took was really standing pat. In the end, doing the deal or not doing the deal cost people their jobs. The repercussions are still going on. I'd like to believe that it was out of Joe's hands but c'mon.... Looking at how he's done business in the past, I find that hard to believe.

 

 

So then please explain why the following two things occurred ...

a ) Wally refused to let Winnipeg talk shop with Reilly prior to a trade, but allowed Edmonton to

b ) Reilly did not opt to wait until free agency before signing a deal in order to maximize his earnings

 

According to what we know it came down to two things... One, the Lions wanted a first rounder from us but a second rounder from Edmonton. And he signed with the Esks virtually minutes after he was obtained in a trade from the Lions. To me, it came down to Mack not believing that fixing the qb mess was worth a first rounder which I find unbelievable. He overvalued Buck & Goltz & undervalued Elliott & Brink which was a mistake. He also dod not want to pay & therefore take a risk on Reilly. According to the way it supposedly went down, Wally offered Mack Reilly & he said no. His choice. Look what has happened since.

 

 

Are you turning a blind eye to the facts in this story on purpose or are you just doing it to frustrate me?

 

The single biggest thing about the difference in negotiations between BC/WPG and BC/EDM is that Edmonton had permission to talk to Reilly and we didn't. But you keep ignoring that every single time.

 

Why?

 

Mike, c'mon dude. The Lions offered Reilly to Winnipeg. Mack said no. Yes, the conditions were different than Edmonton, I'll grant  you that but Mack didn't want to give up a first rounder.

 

 

No that's wrong.  The Lions did not offer Reilly to Winnipeg for the first round pick.  They offered that Mack could TALK to Reilly for the first round pick.  So Mack would have had to give a first round just to talk to Reilly and he still may have gone to Edmonton.  Mack said no.

[Mike]

 

Mike, c'mon dude. The Lions offered Reilly to Winnipeg. Mack said no. Yes, the conditions were different than Edmonton, I'll grant  you that but Mack didn't want to give up a first rounder.

 

 

The Lions didn't offer Reilly to anyone.

 

They offered the rights to Reilly with the ability to negotiate prior to a deal to Edmonton.

They offered the rights to Reilly with no ability to negotiate prior to a deal to Winnipeg.

 

There is a HUGE difference.

[Mike]

 

 

Because Wpg was never serious about acquiring the guy, otherwise, his agent would have advised against signing before all the offers were listened too. Mack was betting on his horses in the race, just as he has always done before, the track record is there for all to see.

 

Right, because I guess we just never really wanted Reilly, we just negotiated with BC and then leaked the story that Buono didn't give us a fair shake at negotiating with Reilly in order to save face.

 

What is that? Conspiracy theory #800 on this board?

 

 

I don't recall Mack ever saying we would be aggressively pursuing Reilly, perhaps you can show me that?

 

By negotiate, what do you mean, what was actually negotiated, what did Mack offer to talk to him or did he, again please show me those 'negotiations'.

 

 

Please show me proof of anything you speculate on under the guise of an insider around here.

[pigseye]

Facts it is then:

 

Job on the line unless he fixes the QB situation

 

Offseason:

 

Wouldn't pull the trigger on the Glenn deal

Reilly deal just a 'myth'

Stands pat with his horses

 

After 1 - 4 start

 

Realizes he's made mistake

 

Tries to save his job by dealing for Collaros, which falls through because of injury to Ray

 

In the end, too late for him.

 

He gambled and lost, facts speak for themselves.

[Logan007]

 

 

Mike, c'mon dude. The Lions offered Reilly to Winnipeg. Mack said no. Yes, the conditions were different than Edmonton, I'll grant  you that but Mack didn't want to give up a first rounder.

 

 

The Lions didn't offer Reilly to anyone.

 

They offered the rights to Reilly with the ability to negotiate prior to a deal to Edmonton.

They offered the rights to Reilly with no ability to negotiate prior to a deal to Winnipeg.

 

There is a HUGE difference.

 

 

Ah Mike you are correct.  I remembered wrong.  It was that they wouldn't let Mack speak to him.  Here's the link in the FREEP.  I agree with Mack on his decision in this case, and I was never a Mack fan.

 

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/football/bombers/Reilly-never-seriously-considered-playing-for-Bombers-Mack-189254001.html

[Rich]

Lets face it, our offense under Crowton has been offensive.   Can you imagine the outrage in this place if we gave up a first rounder to get Reilly, then he would have likely of struggled the same as all the other QBs did.  We probably would have still had the QB carousel we did this year, AND we'd be down a first round pick.  

 

Before we go wishing we had made that trade, lets see what the QBs we do have can do now that we have Bellefeuille 

[Mike]

Oh and just so everyone is aware ... we were never giving up a first rounder to get Reilly.

 

We were swapping firsts and giving up a third.

[17to85]

Facts it is then:

 

Job on the line unless he fixes the QB situation

 

Offseason:

 

Wouldn't pull the trigger on the Glenn deal

Reilly deal just a 'myth'

Stands pat with his horses

 

After 1 - 4 start

 

Realizes he's made mistake

 

Tries to save his job by dealing for Collaros, which falls through because of injury to Ray

 

In the end, too late for him.

 

He gambled and lost, facts speak for themselves.

ahh yes the old "the guy was fired so anything bad I can automatically pin on him, FACTS DON'T LIE!"

 

good job.

[The Unknown Poster]

Imagine if Mack had given up a first rounder and then he signed with Edmonton anyway.  Wowza!

[Noeller]

And as for Glenn, the word at the time was that Calgary was asking for Chris Matthews and our 1st Rounder. In the winter, would you have made that deal? I sure wouldn't. Mack was right to balk at both the Reilley and Glenn "deals"...

[Armchair GM]

According to what we know it came down to two things... One, the Lions wanted a first rounder from us but a second rounder from Edmonton. And he signed with the Esks virtually minutes after he was obtained in a trade from the Lions. To me, it came down to Mack not believing that fixing the qb mess was worth a first rounder which I find unbelievable. He overvalued Buck & Goltz & undervalued Elliott & Brink which was a mistake. He also did not want to pay or give up a first rounder & therefore take a risk on Reilly. According to the way it supposedly went down, Wally offered Mack Reilly & he said no. His choice. If Reilly signed that quickly in Edmonton, just how much of a problem was money??? To me not much so I think the deal was very doable. Mack made his choice & look what happened as Elliott & Brink were released after.

 

The Lions wanted a 1st rounder for Reilly's negotiating rights, period.  They had the hottest commodity in CFL free agency... one would think they were trying to maximize their return.  After all, wouldn't it be in Wally's interest to deal him outside of his division?  (ie.To Winnipeg)? 

 

When it became apparent that not only could they NOT get a 1st rounder from either WPG or EDM, but that the best they were going to do was EDM's 2nd rounder, they most likely tried to get WPG to up our offer, and we most likely balked.  Keep in mind that this was all done with every GM having knowledge of the new TV deal coming down the pipe, and the cap and cash flow impacts to each team.  I sincerely doubt money had anything to do with trading or not trading for Mike Reilly.  Mack most likely followed his M.O. to not ever even come remotely close to overpaying a free agent. 

 

Reilly could have waited for free agency and refused to deal with either team, but why would he do that when he was assured of being handed the keys to an offense in Edmonton?  You're a backup QB in the CFL, you're a pending FA, and you get offered the opportunity you've been waiting for to take the keys to your first professional starting gig.  You take that and run, all day, every day.   I realize I'm disagreeing with a lot of posters with strong opinions to the contrary, but my God man, Wally's not going to deal Reilly within his division unless he has to, to maximize his return.  That's all he did.  There's no conspiracy to cut Winnipeg out of the loop into an endless spiral to futility.  We hired Crowton for that...

[pigseye]

 

Facts it is then:

 

Job on the line unless he fixes the QB situation

 

Offseason:

 

Wouldn't pull the trigger on the Glenn deal

Reilly deal just a 'myth'

Stands pat with his horses

 

After 1 - 4 start

 

Realizes he's made mistake

 

Tries to save his job by dealing for Collaros, which falls through because of injury to Ray

 

In the end, too late for him.

 

He gambled and lost, facts speak for themselves.

ahh yes the old "the guy was fired so anything bad I can automatically pin on him, FACTS DON'T LIE!"

 

good job.

 

 

I can't top that, you win.

[TBURGESS]

 

 

 

 

The first round pick never guaranteed they would get Reilly though! Why in gods name do some of you pretend like it was as simple as trade the pick and sign Reilly? The guy was obviously more interested in going to Edmonton than anywhere else to start with. 

 

 

Oh no.  Here comes Round 43967345 with TBurg in the "We could have had Reilly" never-ending argument.  Hindsight is always 20-20.  Reilly is looking better and better.  How he is still upright is what is really impressing me, given the pounding that guy has taken this year.  Tate, Buck, Nichols all would have been in the hospital right now if they had endured that kind of punishment.  I nor anyone else on this board are really privy to what really went on in the pre-season with Reilly and the Eskimos, and what Mack tried to do.  If we had cut all of our QB's and given Reilly the number one role going into TC, and tampered and broke the rules by negotiating with him before the free agent deadline, could we have gotten Reilly?  At the stage he was at, with two starts under his belt, was he worth doing it for?  Now I'd say "yes".  At the time, it was a huge gamble.  So of course, "NOW" we can say that the Bombers should have pulled out all of the stops, traded picks, cut people, and offered boatloads of money to get Reilly here.  And even after all of that, he probably most likely wouldn't have come.  But anyone who says that it was a no-brainer decision that should have been done is just flat-out lying. 

 

Hindsight, my Aunt Fanny.  I said it at the time and I stick with it now.  We should have gone after Reilly.  If we couldn't get him, we should have settled for Glenn.  We shouldn't have kept Buck.  We should have kept Elliott. 

 

BTW: It was never a guarantee.  It was a calculated risk.  No one said it was a no-brainer.  

[Mr Dee]

When it became apparent that not only could they NOT get a 1st rounder from either WPG or EDM, but that the best they were going to do was EDM's 2nd rounder, they most likely tried to get WPG to up our offer, and we most likely balked.  Keep in mind that this was all done with every GM having knowledge of the new TV deal coming down the pipe, and the cap and cash flow impacts to each team.  I sincerely doubt money had anything to do with trading or not trading for Mike Reilly.  Mack most likely followed his M.O. to not ever even come remotely close to overpaying a free agent. 

 

 

 

Edmonton did not have a1st rounder to trade.

BC got an offer from Edmonton for an asset they were going to lose.

BC simply tried to get more for Reilly through Wpg. (swap picks plus another pick)

BC had nothing to lose.

 

Nobody can adequately explain why Reilly wouldn't wait 2 weeks to optimize his deal.

[Floyd]

Fact is that none of us know what happened or what was offered...  we only got Mack's version in the freep - just like we got Mack's version of the Labatte fiasco.

 

'We had no opportunity to speak to the gentleman and we’d had no feedback at all and nothing to go on," said Mack. "And purely from a practical standpoint, why would you sign (with Edmonton) early unless there’s absolutely where you wanted to be in the first place.

 

"Because two weeks from now, he would have increased his overall leverage because he would have been a free agent."

Maybe Hervey offered the deal and had secured neg rights before Mack ever even picked up the phone...?  Nothing in this article makes me believe that Mack offered Buono ANYTHING for Reilly, probably just figured he would go to FA.

And increase his leverage how?  It was only ever Edmonton and Winnipeg...  and I think everyone in the league knew that Mack is not forking over $200k for Reilly...

My hunch is that Reilly's agent probably recommended Edmonton over Winnipeg...  I mean even when signing Jyles and Pierce, Mack drove a hard bargain - those were long negs.

It was always just excuses from Mack as to why he didn't sign guys...  Hopefully, we finally get a real GM soon.

[pigseye]

 

When it became apparent that not only could they NOT get a 1st rounder from either WPG or EDM, but that the best they were going to do was EDM's 2nd rounder, they most likely tried to get WPG to up our offer, and we most likely balked.  Keep in mind that this was all done with every GM having knowledge of the new TV deal coming down the pipe, and the cap and cash flow impacts to each team.  I sincerely doubt money had anything to do with trading or not trading for Mike Reilly.  Mack most likely followed his M.O. to not ever even come remotely close to overpaying a free agent. 

 

 

 

Edmonton did not have a1st rounder to trade.

BC got an offer from Edmonton for an asset they were going to lose.

BC simply tried to get more for Reilly through Wpg. (swap picks plus another pick)

BC had nothing to lose.

 

Nobody can adequately explain why Reilly wouldn't wait 2 weeks to optimize his deal.

 

 

What does your common sense tell you?

[Armchair GM]

 

When it became apparent that not only could they NOT get a 1st rounder from either WPG or EDM, but that the best they were going to do was EDM's 2nd rounder, they most likely tried to get WPG to up our offer, and we most likely balked.  Keep in mind that this was all done with every GM having knowledge of the new TV deal coming down the pipe, and the cap and cash flow impacts to each team.  I sincerely doubt money had anything to do with trading or not trading for Mike Reilly.  Mack most likely followed his M.O. to not ever even come remotely close to overpaying a free agent. 

 

 

 

Edmonton did not have a1st rounder to trade.

BC got an offer from Edmonton for an asset they were going to lose.

BC simply tried to get more for Reilly through Wpg. (swap picks plus another pick)

BC had nothing to lose.

 

Nobody can adequately explain why Reilly wouldn't wait 2 weeks to optimize his deal.

 

I think it's pretty clear cut why Reilly would take the deal and run... he was only ever going to have an opportunity to start here or in EDM.  We're also tied at the hip to the anchor that is Buck Pierce, and that's common knowledge across the CFL.  Worst case, he was signing on for competition against either a club that loves its Pierce or one that isn't terribly confident in their Nichols... which one looks more winnable? 

 

Bottom line: WPG could not have looked any more appealing that EDM, and Reilly had a good deal on the table for his first starting professional gig.  Is it really worth rolling the dice on a potential $20-30k/year more in Free Agency, against the possibility that EDM may sour on him because he didn't take their deal, and that WPG may (as per Joe Mack custom) low-ball him afterwards, and choosing between that and being stuck signing again as a backup?  EDM's play for his negotiating rights was smart... because the market for Reilly's services after them was so weak.

[blitzmore]

None of this matters anymore!!!

 

We have an 8 or 9 year veteran who is beyond his expiry date

 

We have two unproven backups...neither one of which might win the job

 

We need another QB in the mix ASAP, preferably Collaros, Willy, Mitchell

 

The Coaches don't think Goltz is ready...he needs more work

They're not sure about Hall, as none of us are at this point.

 

The backups here just don't get a fair shake when you are in panic mode.

 

We should be working on that now!

[Mr Dee]

 

 

 

 

 

Edmonton did not have a1st rounder to trade.

BC got an offer from Edmonton for an asset they were going to lose.

BC simply tried to get more for Reilly through Wpg. (swap picks plus another pick)

BC had nothing to lose.

 

Nobody can adequately explain why Reilly wouldn't wait 2 weeks to optimize his deal.

 

I think it's pretty clear cut why Reilly would take the deal and run... he was only ever going to have an opportunity to start here or in EDM.  

 

That's exactly the point...Reilly wasn't going anywhere but Edmonton. He had made up his mind.

[Armchair GM]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edmonton did not have a1st rounder to trade.

BC got an offer from Edmonton for an asset they were going to lose.

BC simply tried to get more for Reilly through Wpg. (swap picks plus another pick)

BC had nothing to lose.

 

Nobody can adequately explain why Reilly wouldn't wait 2 weeks to optimize his deal.

 

I think it's pretty clear cut why Reilly would take the deal and run... he was only ever going to have an opportunity to start here or in EDM.  

 

That's exactly the point...Reilly wasn't going anywhere but Edmonton. He had made up his mind.

 

Way to cherry pick my posts to make your point.  If Reilly got to free agency, he was going to the highest bidder with the best starting opportunity.  Wally Buono is not in the business of making sweetheart deals... he could give a f*** less where Reilly wanted to go.  Wally's only interested in getting a return for something that 2 days later would bring him nothing... and if WPG and EDM were equal, he was dealing the negotiating rights to WPG, because he'd be dealing Reilly out of his division.  He just got the best deal from EDM. There's nothing more to it than that.  Supply and command, Ricky.

 

If Reilly got to Free Agency, I would agree with your point.  But he didn't, and Buono made the best deal for Buono... you can guarantee that Reilly's preference played exactly 0% into where Buono would have dealt him. 

[Mr Dee]

Don't go off the track.

Nobody's talking Buono.

It's all Reilly. 

 

The whole point was Reilly was going to Edm.

That's all we were saying.

[17to85]

Fact is that none of us know what happened or what was offered...  we only got Mack's version in the freep - just like we got Mack's version of the Labatte fiasco.

just to be fair, we did hear Labattes side of things in that deal too. Labatte admitted that he didn't communicate with Winnipeg about his desire not to switch to centre.