Stadium news-again

[Mr Dee]

[iso_55]

 

 

What an absurd thread.. We have MBB political pundits who literally have no credibility OR insight to this topic speaking on it as if they have done hard hitting investigative journalism..

man off-season around here gets lame.

 

What makes your opinions more credible than anyone else's?

 

 

Spuds worded it wrong, sounds like he wants an argument but reading a few of those posts on page 1 here, Not sure exactly how what Spuds said is wrong. Maybe saying something like.. instead of making up bs and calling people out like the one guy is doing to Bowman and Chipman here pretty much, perhaps present some real facts to support your argument instead of just saying "gut feeling". Maybe that would have been better?? I mean really, basically saying Bowman was bought by Chipman is a pretty hardcore accusation and in my opinion, if you are making accusations like that, you better present some pretty damn good facts to back that up. Sorry but "gut feeling" isn't good enough. 

 

SPuDs said nothing wrong. There's accusations being thrown around with nothing to base them on & SPuDs just pointed that out. 

[gbill2004]

May 2014 - True North approaches Centre Venture to indicate interest in Carlton Inn land. At this time Mark Chipman is on the Centre Venture board of directors. And contract exists at this time for Stuart Olson to develop the land into a hotel (through subcontractor).

June 2014 - Centre Venture signs option with True North to develop the Carlton Inn land. Chipman is still on the Centre Ventre BOD (hello massive conflict of interest). Centre Venture has also has contract with Stuart Olson Dominion to build hotel on Carlton Inn land; same land they just signed option with TNSE.

July 2014 - Mark Chipman recluses himself from Centre Venture BOD to remove any conflict of interest (after option was agreed too...huh???).

Today - TNSE says option was signed in September 2014 (contrary to what Bowman says). Centre Venture won't provide documents on deal with TNSE to Bowman. Brian Bowman deflects questions from local media on Chipman's election endorsement and tells reporter to ask that question to Centre Venture.

Nothing sound fishy to anyone here?

[The Unknown Poster]

Gbill- when you are elected to Parliament you can make

Your accusations. I believe slander doesn't apply to parliament actually.

Accusing the mayor and Chipman of being corrupt isn't holding them accountable. It's just being a ****. You can walk your comments back if you choose.

[The Unknown Poster]

Nothing too fishy actually. If Chipman wanted the land due to his role with CV he would have got it ages ago. SOD let it be known that they were having trouble getting a hotel. Chipman stepped in. In sure his position gave him knowledge but what's he supplied to do, brainwash himself? He stepped down before contract was signed.

Isn't the important thing that a good developer builds something there? You are already biased against TN and assume they are corrupt for no reason. You have a condo it because of that bias. Your opinion can no longer be trusted. Time to move on.

[gbill2004]

Gbill- when you are elected to Parliament you can make

Your accusations. I believe slander doesn't apply to parliament actually.

Accusing the mayor and Chipman of being corrupt isn't holding them accountable. It's just being a ****. You can walk your comments back if you choose.

Clearly I've upset some Brian Bowman and hardcore Winnipeg Jets fans on here so I'll try and lay low on this topic for now

[gbill2004]

Nothing too fishy actually. If Chipman wanted the land due to his role with CV he would have got it ages ago. SOD let it be known that they were having trouble getting a hotel. Chipman stepped in. In sure his position gave him knowledge but what's he supplied to do, brainwash himself? He stepped down before contract was signed.

Isn't the important thing that a good developer builds something there? You are already biased against TN and assume they are corrupt for no reason. You have a condo it because of that bias. Your opinion can no longer be trusted. Time to move on.

You clearly aren't aware of all the facts and timelines in this case. I agree it's complicated, but try and take the time to fully understand what's out there.

[Mr Dee]

And this is the True North response:

 

 

 

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Monday, January 26, 2015

TRUE NORTH ISSUES STATEMENT RE: 220 CARLTON STREET DEVELOPMENT

True North Sports & Entertainment Limited today issued the following statement with regards to development of property at 220 Carlton Street:

 

“To all those that have been following the recent developments with regards to this matter we appreciate your patience while providing True North an opportunity to respond. We would also like to thank CentreVenture for taking its time to provide a well-considered, thoughtful and balanced response to the recent public commentary directed toward CentreVenture and True North. We can confirm statements made today by CentreVenture regarding an Option Agreement for the 220 Carlton Street property entered into by True North in September of 2014 with the owners of that property. Subject to certain conditions to be negotiated in a subsequent Development Agreement, this Option Agreement provides True North with rights to acquire that property at a designated point of time in the future. The Agreement also provides for a fair market value mechanism to determine the value of the property upon acquisition. The option has not been exercised. The property at 220 Carlton along with a number of other downtown properties contiguous to it are part of a broader land assembly package to the southwest of the MTS Centre and the northeast of the RBC Convention Centre currently under development review by True North and its partners. True North is now undertaking a thorough due diligence exercise involving these lands the purpose of which is to determine the viability of a very significant mixed used real estate development for downtown Winnipeg. This development would include office, hotel, retail, residential, parking and public plaza components. During this process we have considered major mixed use real estate projects in other cities developed by our industry peers including Maple Leaf Square in Toronto and LA Live in Los Angeles. It is anticipated that this investment in our downtown will greatly enhance Winnipeg and its SHED district. As many of you who have followed the growth of our organization over the years will appreciate, it is not our common practice to comment publicly on these kinds of investment projects until such time as we have reasonably come to the end of our due diligence process. As recently indicated we continue to be enthusiastic about the opportunities for Winnipeg as a community and in particular its downtown. For 2015 we are continuing with our investment and upgrade plan in the MTS Centre. We remain committed as an organization to a bright future for Winnipeg and the ongoing opportunities for True North and its partners to invest in Winnipeg, its people, its commercial infrastructure and our collective future together in our home town. Thank you very much.” #####

 

 

 

[gbill2004]

Nothing too fishy actually. If Chipman wanted the land due to his role with CV he would have got it ages ago. SOD let it be known that they were having trouble getting a hotel. Chipman stepped in. In sure his position gave him knowledge but what's he supplied to do, brainwash himself? He stepped down before contract was signed.

Isn't the important thing that a good developer builds something there? You are already biased against TN and assume they are corrupt for no reason. You have a condo it because of that bias. Your opinion can no longer be trusted. Time to move on.

SOD sub-contracted a company to build the hotel. Then Centre Venture started telling that company to stop acting as if they represented the owner. That sub-contractor and SOD got frustrated with Centre Venture meddling in their business so they said they wanted out because hey weren't being allowed to do the job they were asked to do.

[bigg jay]

Gbill- when you are elected to Parliament you can make

Your accusations. I believe slander doesn't apply to parliament actually.

Correct. It's called parliamentary privilege.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

Nothing too fishy actually. If Chipman wanted the land due to his role with CV he would have got it ages ago. SOD let it be known that they were having trouble getting a hotel. Chipman stepped in. In sure his position gave him knowledge but what's he supplied to do, brainwash himself? He stepped down before contract was signed.

Isn't the important thing that a good developer builds something there? You are already biased against TN and assume they are corrupt for no reason. You have a condo it because of that bias. Your opinion can no longer be trusted. Time to move on.

You clearly aren't aware of all the facts and timelines in this case. I agree it's complicated, but try and take the time to fully understand what's out there.

 

Try not to let your bias against True North and the Mayor cloud your reason and logic.  Not every politician is corrupt.  Not every business leader is making illegal backroom dealings.

[gbill2004]

I never said all politicians or business people are corrupt. But the facts of this situation look very shady. Not hard to connect the dots to see what happened here.

[Rich]

 

Call it what you want, but it happens all the time.

Another interesting tie is that Jim Ludlow, TNSE President of Development is a former board member of CentreVenture. It's not too difficult to connect the dots. I'm sure hoping Bowman has a backbone and doesn't allow TNSE to get this contract.

 

 

[quote name="JuranBoldenRules" post="104648"

]


You're accusing two people of criminal behavior in this thread.

He's taking a break from accusing people of doping.

Yes, I guess no athletes dope and politicians are always honest. Amazing how some of you guys are living in a fantasy world.

 

 

 

 

 

related note: the contractor (Stuart Olson Dominion), is also in a dust-up over the convention centre project. The convention centre part is fine, but as part of getting that contract they also had to build a top-tier hotel to service the expanded building. This seems to be mired by backroom deals that I'm no so sure SOD had much involment in, but the facts are still coming out.

It seems that CenterVenture kept throwing wrenches in the works of their hotel building so they could get the contract in the hands of TrueNorth. In exchange for doing the dirty, the 16 million dollar penalty for not building the hotel was slashed to under 4 million. One of the reasons that centerventure uses to try to convince the city councillers to accept the deal is that if they try to get the full penalty out of SOD, the whole thing will be tied up in courts for years. Part of me thinks they are using the reputation of the legal battle over the stadium construction as leverage to add more umpf to this BS argument.

The good news for taxpayers is that it seems mayor Bowman smells something shifty and is demanding a public RFP for the hotel build now. Here's hoping this issue can be fixed up, and SOD gets a fair chance to get a hotel built, or pays the appropriate penalty, not something discounted by over 10 million bucks.

Only problem is that Mark Chipman publicly endorsed Brian Bowman for mayor. My instincts tell me that Chipman expected something in return for that endorsement and that mayor Bowman will cave and allow TNSE to develop the land. I suspect Mr Bowman and Mr Chipman have spoken several times over the past couple weeks on this matter.

We will see what kind of backbone our mayor has this week. RFP and he's got a backbone (although TNSE could still win the bid through the RFP), or council decides to give the contract directly to TNSE means Bowman is paying back a favour to Chipman. Will be interesting...

Absolutely nonsense. This is the "dirty" aspect of politics. Someone endorses a politician and must be expecting a favour? Give me a break. There is absolutely nothing to indicate Chipman traded his endorsement for a favour.

What it seems like is CV has a deal for a hotel project there. SOD claims they have a deal too. Let them both submit bids and let council pick one. Done and done.

Supposedly SOD was having trouble finding a hotel partner and let CV know that. If CV turned around and did their own search and made a deal with TN and then SOD said hey wait we think we have a partner now, I can understand if CV was reluctant to throw away their work. Especially if SOd's partner isn't local like TN

Not that I am defending CV at all. They got way too far away from their original mandate.

Bowman will clean it up. If anything bowman will be tougher on Chipman to dissuade anyone from accusing him of a conflict. I see nothing that indicates bowman is Sammy.

You are being very naive here. Election support from business in exchange for political favors happens ALL the time.

But I sure hope you're right about Bowman treating Chipman tougher.

 

 

 

 

I never said all politicians or business people are corrupt. But the facts of this situation look very shady. Not hard to connect the dots to see what happened here.

 

Sure seems like that is what you've been implying.

[Jacquie]

Excerpt from the FP:

 

Mayor Brian Bowman is drilling the message into Winnipeg's business community and senior civic administration there are no shortcuts to success and no one gets special treatment at city hall.

 

Bowman and members of his executive policy committee on Monday rejected the strong advice of the city's downtown development agency and ordered CentreVenture to see who else might be interested in developing the vacant land that used to house the Carlton Inn.

 

Rest of article at: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/true-north-deal-has-to-wait-289886891.html

 

Bartley Kives' column:

 

The first lesson politicians are supposed to learn is to dance with the one who brought you. Brian Bowman doesn't want to boogie with anybody.

 

Winnipeg's new mayor spent much of Monday throwing rocks at a popular corporation headed up by a popular man who just so happened to be his biggest backer in 2014.

 

Rest of column at: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/mayors-not-afraid-to-step-on-toes-even-friendly-ones-289886711.html

[The Unknown Poster]

Media drumming up a story that isnt really the one they are telling.  I dont see this as Bowman throwing stones at Chipman.

 

Here's the thing.  To me (and Im not expert), the issues all lay with CV and their over-reach.  My understanding is SOD had zero success in luring a hotel development and let CV know that.  Chipman would have been privy to that information ofcourse as he sat on the BOD of CV.

 

True North then said 'hey look if they cant find a development, maybe the land suits our needs'.  Is this conflict?  I dont see it that way.  Is it wrong?  I dont see it that way either.  If Chipman becomes aware of a piece of land being available that he covets is he supposed to say "nah, pass"?  The ONLY issue I see is that once SOD let CV know they werent having success in finding a hotel development, CV should have opened it up to anyone to pitch an idea.  Instead, they signed a deal with TN. 

 

The thing about that is, how many other developers were sitting around waiting for SOD's deal with CV to expire?  If SOD was actively looking for a developer, then surely anyone wanting to develop the property would have made their intentions known.  If True North did anything, it was saying to CV "we will develop the land but we dont want to work with SOD, we want to work with out own people."

 

I suppose CV *should* have said to TN, hey if you want to develop it, great, lets sit you down with SOD and you guys make a deal.  Instead CV said 'well SOD isnt able to develop it anyway so we'll hand it over to TN."  Once that happened, SOD claims they DID find a willing partner but CV now was in bed with TN and blocked SOD from working their option.

 

The way I see it, CV should have released SOD from their obligation first (thus releasing them from paying any penalty) and then offered the land up to any pitches from any developers.  At that point, the only one might have been TN and everything would have APPEARED above board.

 

I dont see this is a back room deal in the general Sammy/Shindico sense.  I see it as CV desperately wanting to develop that land, feeling SOD couldnt do it and making a deal with TN to get it done.  If SOD never was able to entice anyone and no one was interested, wouldnt the CV/TN deal have really looked like great news?

 

Mark Chipman clearly wanted to avoid the appearance of a conflict by resigning from CV.  There is ZERO evidence that Chipman did anything wrong.  Bowman wasnt even aware of the deal so any insinuation that this was a quid pro quo between Chipman and Bowman is ludicrous.

 

Bowman is doing the right thing by stepping back and saying screw everyone...here is land, if you want it, pitch us.  Personally I hope TN's bid wins in the end and if they make the best proposal it will.

 

I think CV was wrong.  I dont think TN or Bowman were.

[Mr Dee]

I never said all politicians or business people are corrupt. But the facts of this situation look very shady. Not hard to connect the dots to see what happened here.

 

The actual facts don't support your storyline.

Bowman is not rubber stamping True North's actions and their actions don't look like they are out of line.

 

You can, of course, connect the dots in insinuations, but there are no dots to connect in the facts.

[gbill2004]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Rich" data-cid="104904" data-time="1422374642"><p><p>

Call it what you want, but it happens all the time.Another interesting tie is that Jim Ludlow, TNSE President of Development is a former board member of CentreVenture. It's not too difficult to connect the dots. I'm sure hoping Bowman has a backbone and doesn't allow TNSE to get this contract.

]You're accusing two people of criminal behavior in this thread.

He's taking a break from accusing people of doping.

Yes, I guess no athletes dope and politicians are always honest. Amazing how some of you guys are living in a fantasy world.

<p><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gbill2004" data-cid="104639" data-time="1422212284"><p>Well now you're just being immature and twisting words around. When I say all the time, it obvioudly doesn't mean every single time and person. All the time means frequently or often.

[Rich]

It isn't twisting words around when you are using this as an argument to support the statement that Bowman and TN are guilty or backroom deals and corruption if the deal happens ... with no other proof than conjecture and circumstance and “connecting the dots”.

 

Or if you prefer, what you are really saying, is that corruption happens frequently or often in government and since there seems to be an illusion of backroom deals here, if this deal is signed, they are guilty.

 

 

I really don’t know if there is corruption going on here one way or the other (I won't say there is 100% no corruption just as I won't say that there is), but I don’t think it is right to proclaim someone as guilty without fact or proof.  Gut feeling doesn’t really cut it.  If someone thinks something fishy is going on here, then investigate and find proof.

[RagingIce]

heh, this thread turned into a shitshow.

 

I think it's OK to be skeptical of the dealings going on at city hall given our history with corruption over the past decade. Bowman comes from the same group of social elite that a lot of our politicians come from in Manitoba, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that something untoward is going on with this situation.

 

That said, Mayor Bowman has done a good job so far IMO, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[The Unknown Poster]

There are some people that just automatically hate the wealthy.  Like how dare Chipman be wealthy and how dare he continue to work hard to be even more wealthy.  I dont know him personally but I have never seen or heard anything that would make be think he's anything less in private then his public persona indicates.

 

But end result is there will be an RFP.  True North will have the same chance as anyone to bid and if they are the right fit, they will win.  Its not just about money either.

[The Unknown Poster]

This is a Free Press editorial that was sent to me.  It was sent to me by someone who I think was trying to push the idea that the editorial is wrong (hence the bolds) but I actually agree with it. 

 

Captain Bowman needs to get a grip

By: Editorial

Posted: 8:44 AM

 

There is a risk Mayor Brian Bowman’s obsession with appearing to do the right thing will result in council doing the wrong thing today with regard to a landmark development proposal by True North Sports & Entertainment, owner of the Winnipeg Jets and the MTS Centre.

The mayor’s desire to open the process to other potential suitors for land near the RBC Convention Centre is unlikely to produce a better deal. It will certainly delay the plan that is on the table and potentially even scuttle it, while opening new legal challenges.

The delay will cost the city tax revenue, as well as hurt the convention centre.

Here are the facts:

Stuart Olson Construction, the company expanding the RBC Convention Centre, went to former mayor Sam Katz and senior civic officials last April saying it wanted out of its legal obligation to build a hotel near the convention centre because it couldn’t find a potential hotel owner.

It was on the hook for $16 million, but offered the city a $3.75-million settlement.

Mayor Katz then asked CentreVenture, the city’s downtown development agency, if it could develop a Plan B and find a hotel.

The agency began working on the file and eventually convinced True North to do a more ambitious development involving the hotel site and an adjacent surface-parking lot.

True North at that time was only planning on developing the surface-parking lot, but it invested in new architectural drawings and plans. A legal agreement was signed with True North last September. It involved not only a top hotel, which was not guaranteed in the original deal with Stuart Olson, and a mixed-use residential/commercial building, with a large public square near the MTS Centre.

It would all be connected by skywalks to the convention centre.

Mayor Bowman now wants to break that legal agreement and force CentreVenture to issue expressions of interest for the site of the former Carlton Inn, which the city paid $6.6 million to acquire.

True North is unlikely to take legal action against the city, but the potential is there.

Mayor Bowman only discovered these facts a couple of weeks ago, around the time he suspended Deepak Joshi, the city’s acting chief administrative officer.

The rookie mayor seems to think that because he didn’t know about the previous agreements and negotiations, they are somehow invalid, null and void.

Of course this is preposterous. Any newly elected leader will find dozens of important files he knows nothing about. That doesn’t mean they are all somehow tainted.

Then-mayor Katz and some members of his inner circle had wanted the Stuart Olson matter placed on last September’s council agenda, but it never happened, probably because of the poisonous atmosphere at the time where every initiative was regarded with suspicion. Then an election was held, and the settlement and hotel issue was pushed back until now.

Mayor Bowman promised to clean up city hall, but the crusader role is interfering with his judgment.

There is no scandal here, only a good deal for taxpayers and for downtown redevelopment. If there is a perception of wrongdoing, it was created entirely by Mayor Bowman.

CentreVenture did what it was asked to do by the city and did it very well. The image of the agency today, however, is it is out of control, suffering from mission creep and obsessively secretive.

It is probably due for a review of its mandate, but it did not deserve to be treated as some rogue organization that needs to be cut down to size.

Mayor Bowman’s commitment to transparency is admirable, but even a good thing can be carried too far.

Editorials are the consensus view of the Winnipeg Free Press’ editorial board, comprising Catherine Mitchell, David O’Brien, Shannon Sampert, and Paul Samyn.

[Atomic]

Couldn't agree more with the editorial.  Bang on.  Bowman is basically going through the motions and potentially wasting millions of dollars just to satisfy all the gbill's out there.

[SPuDS]

It's one thing to suggest people are being naïve if they don't admit some pro athletes use performance enhancing substances or if they're not willing to acknowledge some politicians are crooked to varying degrees.

It's another thing altogether to paint every athlete and politician with the same brush using zero evidence whatsoever and going off total gut feelings and then claim the people who dare to question you are naïve.

What a surprise...Mike disagrees with me! lol

And as usual, Mike is right.

lol are you two dating?

Them both being right doesnt mean they are dating... Another baseless accusation!

[gbill2004]

Couldn't agree more with the editorial. Bang on. Bowman is basically going through the motions and potentially wasting millions of dollars just to satisfy all the gbill's out there.

When you're dealing with taxpayer dollars, politicians must ensure they are transparent and getting value for money. It really amazes me how some people just don't understand this concept. But that's fine, I'll continue to be the bad/unreasonable guy here.

[Atomic]

 

Couldn't agree more with the editorial. Bang on. Bowman is basically going through the motions and potentially wasting millions of dollars just to satisfy all the gbill's out there.

When you're dealing with taxpayer dollars, politicians must ensure they are transparent and getting value for money. It really amazes me how some people just don't understand this concept. But that's fine, I'll continue to be the bad/unreasonable guy here.

 

 

It really amazes me how you still don't get it.  When you are wasting millions of dollars just to put on a show for the unreasonable observer, that's not getting value for money.  That's bureaucratic waste.  Bureaucratic process is the worst enemy of progress and innovation.  Sometimes the right choice is obvious and you don't have to jump through ten hoops to know it.