UFC Discussion

[The Unknown Poster]

The Jets and NHL have a huge brand to protect, they want zero scandals and everyone associated with them to protect that image.

Do you really think that the NHL is the only league where young guys with millions of dollars are clean as a whistle?

The ufc is in full blown crisis mode, the NFL is almost there, mlb has been fighting this for decades... But no its impossible that good old hockey players aren't in that same boat.

The NHL and True North have done a much better job protecting the image of the brand would be the real answer.

Or it could be that the culture of the NHL is different and therefor they have less issues than other leagues.  I think thats the answer. 

 

All those other leagues and organizations have a brand to protect too.

 

I wouldnt say the UFC is in crises mode.  They have problems but it's not a crises.  They will get it sorted out.  I remember the HUGE drug scandal in WWE a few years ago (that ended up with Vince mcMahon on federal trial) but they worked it out...more or less. 

[bigg jay]

 

The Jets and NHL have a huge brand to protect, they want zero scandals and everyone associated with them to protect that image.

Do you really think that the NHL is the only league where young guys with millions of dollars are clean as a whistle?

The ufc is in full blown crisis mode, the NFL is almost there, mlb has been fighting this for decades... But no its impossible that good old hockey players aren't in that same boat.

The NHL and True North have done a much better job protecting the image of the brand would be the real answer.

Or it could be that the culture of the NHL is different and therefor they have less issues than other leagues.  I think thats the answer. 

 

All those other leagues and organizations have a brand to protect too.

 

I wouldnt say the UFC is in crises mode.  They have problems but it's not a crises.  They will get it sorted out.  I remember the HUGE drug scandal in WWE a few years ago (that ended up with Vince mcMahon on federal trial) but they worked it out...more or less. 

 

 

The mods may want to split this topic from the Jets/NHL talk.

 

It's not in crisis mode yet, it's knocking on the door for the UFC and only because they are doing their best to bury it.  There's a lot going on with PED's in MMA (some confirmed and some stuff is strongly hinted at or rumored).  There's so much financial motivation (for all parties involved) to sweep this under the rug, it's not even funny.

[Rich]

Split from the Kane trade thread in the Jets forum.

[bigg jay]

Thanks Rich!

 

To expand on my earlier post, MMA is having fighters failing drug tests on almost a weekly basis right now (2 of them being major stars in Jon Jones & Anderson Silva).  They had arguably their biggest star (GSP) completely walk away from the sport because of the rampant PED use.  Those are facts.

 

Another fact is that for the athletes, the promotions, and the commissions (more specifically Nevada because of their laws) it's better financially to ignore the drug tests until after the fights are done.  For example, if they had released the test results for the last PPV in a timely manner, it would have forced either the cancellation/rescheduling of the main event or even the entire card (the UFC has cancelled an entire card due to a main event change before).  The laws in Nevada state that they could be on the hook for refunds if they don't deliver the card as advertised so if they lost the Silva/Diaz fight, they could have been shelling out a lot of cash, not to mention the huge loss in PPV buys.  The NSAC also loses out, as they make 6% of the total gate for the event (for the SIlva/Diaz event, their cut was in the hundreds of thousands of dollars).  Obviously the fighters lose out too since they (for the most part), don't get paid if they don't get to fight.

 

Silva's failed drug test was done weeks before the event but conveniently did not receive the result until days after the event - they could have had them in about a week, if they so chose.  Given the financial implications I just mentioned, is it a coincidence that they don't get the results until after the event?

[Brandon]

Also nearly everyone has been on something since the start this isn't new.

The Smashing Machine is a sad and great look at early mma roiding

[bigg jay]

There has always been PED users (even going back to the Royce Gracie days - Ken Shamrock has admitted past TRT use & he fought on UFC 1) but it's definitely increased as the sport has grown.  It's gotten to the point though where clean guys are contemplating walking away.  They've had 13 guys in the last 12 months fail tests.

 

The UFC isn't helping things either, they recently cancelled plans to randomly test each fighter throughout the year (if you believe the rumors, it's because they did a test run & 70% of the samples came back positive for banned substances).  They're holding a press conference next week to address the issue, so we'll see how serious they are about cleaning it up.

[The Unknown Poster]

Well GSP had other issues too.

UFC isn't sweeping it under the rug. It was their test that caught Silva and they had it conducted at an unusual time.

[bigg jay]

Not true. The out of competition tests were done by the Nevada commission not the ufc.

[SPuDS]

You have to know when an absolute warrior who backs down from almost nobody refuses to fight anymore because of rampant PEDs then it's an issue that's bigger then most people know.. Sure, he was also dealing with some mental stuff but one could surmise that was also due to him panicking about having to fight a guy armed with a gun in a knife fight, figuratively speaking.. And he's right. It's a pretty big advantage to be using roids or blood drugs or testosterone.. They either make you hit harder, react lesser to getting hit or allow you to recover or not burn out much more rapidly..

A guy who is all natural (and I believe GSP when he says he is) gets into the cage with a doper, it's really not a fair fight... At all.

[The Unknown Poster]

Not true. The out of competition tests were done by the Nevada commission not the ufc.

The tests are always done by a commission but Silva's test for sure was paid for by the UFC directly.

[Brandon]

I don't think it's fair in any sport and sadly it runs rampant in all sports.

For the ufc it helps but IMO it also hampers.. The obvious cheaters usually are muscled up and gas hard (overeem , Lombard) while the guys who appear to be clean and not chiseled like Matt Brown, Condit, Diaz) seem to have way better cardio though lack the power shots.

[The Unknown Poster]

You have to know when an absolute warrior who backs down from almost nobody refuses to fight anymore because of rampant PEDs then it's an issue that's bigger then most people know.. Sure, he was also dealing with some mental stuff but one could surmise that was also due to him panicking about having to fight a guy armed with a gun in a knife fight, figuratively speaking.. And he's right. It's a pretty big advantage to be using roids or blood drugs or testosterone.. They either make you hit harder, react lesser to getting hit or allow you to recover or not burn out much more rapidly..

A guy who is all natural (and I believe GSP when he says he is) gets into the cage with a doper, it's really not a fair fight... At all.

If you believe thats really GSP's reasoning.  He had personal issues too.  A warrior for sure, but he had his issues.

 

Theres more to this then just saying these guys are cheaters.  And its easy for any one of us to say "I would never do steroids".  But put yourself in the position of a fighter who might only have a very few opportunities to make money and every time he steps in the ring he risks never fighting again.  And then surround him with people giving him "advice" and the sense that he's not doing it to cheat, just to repair his body or make it so he can train harder.  The idea is to time your cycle so you piss clean and some guys are getting caught because they are testing at different times now.

 

Im not defending why they cheat but its a very high pressure situation.  The easy solution is year-round testing where you simply cant cycle on and off.  But there is expense to that.  And ofcourse the recent controversy with, I believe Silva, where they could have had the result back right before his fight but didnt with the idea that everyone involved including the commission wouldnt want to cancel a big fight (commission gets a cut of the fights).

 

Year round testing of everyone and long term bans for offenses would nip it.  If one guy thinks 10 other guys are cheating, the pressure is on him to cheat too, especially if he's "hurt" and justifies to himself that he's not giving himself an advantage in the fight, just an ability to train.

 

I reccomend googling articles on this subject by Dave Meltzer who is a first rate expert on MMA and has written at length about steroids in MMA and wrestling.

[Brandon]

The problem for the ufc is that if they did year round testing then so many of there stars would get busted and they would have no one to sell ppv.

The ufc gained fame off guys like Shamrock, Ortiz, Couture all definitely who would fail at least one test.

[The Unknown Poster]

Actually here is his most recent article on the situation.

This is from his subscription newsletter, wrestlingobserver.com   If you like to follow MMA, I highly recommend trying a subscription (especially if you also like wrestling). 

 

Dave Meltzer

 

The Nevada Athletic Commission hearing regarding punishment for Anderson Silva and Nick Diaz for drug test failures is scheduled for 2/17, and Hector Lombard may be added to that list. While not official, it is expected the result of the 1/31 main event fight that Silva had won via unanimous decision will be ruled a no contest.

Many are skeptical, and for good reason, that a test Silva took on 1/9 would not have results back by 1/31. Both the Nevada Athletic Commission and Sports, Medicine Research & Testing Laboratory in Salt Lake City, which did four different tests on Silva’s specimen, have stated the results did not come back before the fight.

What is notable is that this past week, the word got out that Jon Fitch failed a steroid test on 12/13.

 

California did not get an original report of the Fitch test failure until 1/15, and then ordered another test, which didn’t come back until 2/4. California used a different lab. In the case of Fitch, unlike with Silva, the fight had already taken place so the idea they were holding back the results to protect the fight is out the window.

 

However, Lombard failed a test in Nevada on 1/3 and the commission already had the positive result back on 1/13. However, the test was not reported until 2/10 because Nevada didn’t release the result. Lombard had been advertised for the 4/25 show in Montreal for a fight with Rory MacDonald until 2/10, when UFC pulled the fight from the show with no explanation at first. From a local standpoint for the Montreal market, MacDonald was the biggest star on the show, although they’ve loaded that show up with fighters from Montreal. MacDonald is no longer going to be on the show and because there is really no opponent that makes sense for him. This may be a blessing in disguise, because if Johny Hendricks doesn’t beat Matt Brown on 3/14, or gets hurt in that fight, MacDonald would be the most viable opponent for champion Robbie Lawler, who was looking to fight in May or early summer.

 

MacDonald vs. Lombard was replaced on the show by Demetrious Johnson vs. Kyoji Horiguchi for the flyweight title. Horiguchi fell into the spot because Ian McCall lost to an oversized, John Lineker, Lineker is being moved to bantamweight for his fourth failure to make weight. Horiguchi (15-1), is Japan’s best shot currently as holding a UFC championship.

 

Lombard, 37, failed for desoxymethlyltestosterone, better known as DMT or Madol, (there is a hallucinogenic drug known as DMT, this is not the same thing), a steroid used to spike food supplements as late as 2010, before the FDA banned it. Lombard failed a test he knew about ahead of time, since it was taken the day of his victory over Josh Burkman. Lombard will join Silva and Diaz as far as their cases being held on 2/17 before the Nevada Athletic Commission.

 

Silva had a second set of tests done on 1/19, both blood and urine, and he passed, meaning that the two steroids had cleared his system. The report on the urine test came in on 2/5. The blood test, showing no HGH, came in on 2/2, although it was not released publicly until a week later.

 

While anything is possible, most likely being clean ten days after the first positive test would be a result of timing his cycle of the two steroids to clear before fight time and a cessation of use at around New Year’s, give or take a day. Silva and Diaz’s test results for performance enhancing drugs taken on the night of the fight had not yet come back.

 

In both cases, the commissions are using this as a learning experience because you can expedite test results so they came back in less than two weeks. The point being that whether or not one chooses to believe the story on Silva, there was so much money at stake, and the commission itself is funded by a percentage of the live gate plus $50,000 from the PPV revenue, so they are hurt financially as well for a canceled show. UFC pays for the out of competition drug testing for its athletes in Nevada.

 

Still, the commission has said that had they had the result back before the show, the match would have been canceled. What UFC would have done in that situation is a question, as they would have had to offer refunds of the live gate. Had they gone on with the show, because the show didn’t have a strong marquee undercard (really, the second strongest fight to the public was the Sara McMann vs. Miesha Tate fight that wasn’t even on the PPV), a lot of refunds could have meant an empty building. There were likely thousands of Brazilians who had flown in for the show. What they would have done for the PPV is another question.

 

The key point is if what is being said is accurate, this has been a learning experience and they can’t play the we didn’t get the results back in time card again for any test more than two weeks or so before the show itself.

 

Silva has maintained his innocence, saying that he doesn’t understand how he tested positive.

 

His manager, Ed Soares, released a statement from Silva, saying, “I’ve been competing in this sport for a very long time. This is my 19th fight in the UFC. I have been thoroughly tested many times and have never had a positive drug test. I have not taken any performance enhancing drugs. My stance on drugs is, and will always be, the same. I’m an advocate for a clean sport. I’m consulting with my advisors right now to explore all of my options and intend to fight this allegation and clear my name.”

 

Both Globo in Brazil and the UFC had decided to keep Silva as one of the coaches of the next season of The Ultimate Fighter Brazil, but it’s not happening as the Nevada Athletic Commission wouldn’t allow it. As noted last week, there is a precedent for that ruling, because a coach on a show filmed in Nevada needs a seconds license, and if somebody is suspended, they are unable to get licensed. The UFC had wanted Chael Sonnen and Michael Bisping to coach an American season on FX, but the Nevada commission wouldn’t license Sonnen due to a suspension in California in a drug testing violation.

 

Because the show airs on Brazil’s biggest network, and thus it needs to have millions of viewers weekly to be a success, the feeling was that it needs major celebrity firepower. Silva is one of the biggest celebrities currently in Brazil.

 

On 2/9, the UFC announced Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira as Silva’s replacement after the commission made its ruling.

 

“Anderson Silva has been one of the greatest athletes this sport has ever seen,” said White. “He has had a long and distinguished career in mixed martial arts. In his nine years with the UFC, Anderson has never tested positive for a banned substance. In light of this, we want to ensure Anderson gets his due process and we will support him during his time. While this process plays out, Anderson will continue in his role as coach of The Ultimate Fighter Brazil. Of course, we will continue to monitor the actions of the Nevada State Athletic Commission.

 

“We fully support the Commission’s out-of-competition drug testing program, which we have financed when requested over the past two years. Testing of this nature is important to help keep this sport clean. The director at the laboratory in Salt Lake City has now explained the timing of Anderson’s test results and why the Commission and the UFC did not receive the results until February 3, after the fight.

 

“One all the results have been made public and the Nevada Athletic Commission has rendered its decision, we will respect the process and move forward accordingly.”

Globo told MMAFighting.com, “Keep Anderson on TUF until all the results are released and the Nevada State Athletic Commission has made its decision, it was a decision made in agreement with UFC.”

 

After the ruling, the UFC announced, “The UFC and Globo, the show’s Brazilian broadcaster, respect the Commission’s decision, which will allow Silva to focus his attention on the matter before the Commission. Anderson Silva has been an amazing champion and a true ambassador of the sport of mixed martial arts and the UFC will continue to support him as this process unfolds.”

 

The show had started filming on 2/2 in Las Vegas, so Silva had just started filming as coach when the test results came in. Silva will be in the first few episodes as coach before both Nogueira Brothers (Antonio Rogerio Nogueira will be the leading assistant coach) will take over the team, in coaching against a team led by Mauricio “Shogun” Rua. Nogueira and Rua will not fight at the end of the season.

 

As noted last week, some have claimed that Silva doing steroids would make sense in aiding his recovery from a broken leg suffered on December 28, 2013. However, Drostanolone and Androstane are not steroids used for the healing process, but drugs used to aid in maintaining muscle while on a heavy diet. Human Growth Hormone would be one of the drugs likely used to heal a broken leg, which is virtually impossible to reliably test for, and whatever drugs were or weren’t used for repairing his injury would have been taken in early 2014. The two drugs in question, to show up on a test that was administered on 1/9, would have both had to be used later than mid-December.

 

The case of Diaz is even crazier in some ways, because few knew it, but Diaz came very close to not being allowed to fight.

Diaz had not applied for a license in Nevada during almost all of the promotion of the fight. Because of his two previous test failures and suspensions for marijuana use in 2007 and 2012 in Nevada, the commission wouldn’t license him until he submitted a clean drug test.

 

According to Cesar Gracie, Diaz has taken several drug tests to be submitted, but in every case, he had failed for marijuana. He wasn’t able to pass a test, the results which he then provided to the commission, until a few days before the fight.

 

“It’s not an anomaly,” said Bob Bennett, the commission Executive Director to MMAFighting.com regarding a main event fighter not being licensed until a few days before the fight. “We do get them (applications) at the last second. We’d prefer not to, because it creates problems. But don’t think we didn’t contact the promoters. We did contact the promoters. We said, `We need a clean bill of health from Nick or he isn’t fighting.’”

 

Diaz’s license application came in 1/28, the Wednesday before the Saturday of the fight. The only notable thing on his license was that he has two DUI cases in California pending, one from November 28, 2013 and the other from September 6, 2014.

 

The key to the Diaz test failure was the amount of marijuana in his system in his test taken the night of the fight.

 

Generally, a positive test for marijuana would be 15 nanograms per milliliter (ng/mL). Until 2013, the Nevada commission would consider anything under 50 ng/mL as a negative. In 2013, after lobbying from the UFC and Marc Ratner, who argued that times have changed in regard to the public’s perception of marijuana, noting its legal in several states, and the commission raised the level to 150 ng/mL at that time. When tested positive after the Gomi fight in 2007, his level was 175 ng/mL, but his level after the Silva fight was 300 ng/mL. Since Diaz was able to provide a “clean” (as in under 150 ng/mL) test a few days before the fight, and to come back with such a high number, it would indicate substantial usage very close to fight time.

 

While Gracie claimed Diaz did not smoke after the initial test, and blamed the high reading on exertion of the fight affecting the test result, Bennett claimed that the test result showed it was obvious that after he was able to provide a negative test, he went back to smoking again.

[bigg jay]

 

Not true. The out of competition tests were done by the Nevada commission not the ufc.

The tests are always done by a commission but Silva's test for sure was paid for by the UFC directly.

 

The UFC has & does fund drug testing (especially out of competition testing) but from my understanding, they do not pay the labs directly.  The policy in Manitoba is for the commission, not the lab, to bill the promoter (UFC 161 was/is the only time drug testing has been done here if I'm not mistaken).

[Brandon]

i just find it funny that the ufc banned Diaz for smoking weed for one year, while Jon Jones gets busted for cocaine spends one night in rehab and has his next match lined up in a few months.

Its things like this that makes the ufc look foolish.

[bigg jay]

The UFC plays favorites, no question about it.  They will cut a lower level guy over a tweet, but a star like Jones gets a slap on the wrist.  And it's not as though this is Jones 1st controversy either, he just had the press conference brawl with Cormier (there may still be fallout from that as Jones flat out lied to the commission at a hearing) and he had a DUI in 2012.

[The Unknown Poster]

The UFC plays favorites, no question about it.  They will cut a lower level guy over a tweet, but a star like Jones gets a slap on the wrist.  And it's not as though this is Jones 1st controversy either, he just had the press conference brawl with Cormier (there may still be fallout from that as Jones flat out lied to the commission at a hearing) and he had a DUI in 2012.

Cant blame them for playing favourites.

[bigg jay]

Business-wise it makes sense, they want to protect their cash cow's.  It's just very hypocritical and something you don't generally see in other professional sports (at least from the league).  They want to be seen a a major league sport but sometimes they do very bush league things.

[The Unknown Poster]

Business-wise it makes sense, they want to protect their cash cow's.  It's just very hypocritical and something you don't generally see in other professional sports (at least from the league).  They want to be seen a a major league sport but sometimes they do very bush league things.

They're a bit different though because they arent a "league" where there are multiple owners/franchises with somewhat of an oversight board (the league).  They are a privately owned business but have to answer to commissions, some of which could be described as corrupt.

 

You've seen a bit of desperation in UFC when it comes to the realization they dont have a lot of drawing cards and so many fights.  They really grew very fast and to an extent the criticism will be they water down their own product.  But as long as there is money to be made, they wont change.  When they bring in CM Punk and have a strong interest in bringing back Brock Lesnar, its all about selling PPV's.

[Brandon]

And Anderson Silva failed another drug test...

 

For MMA at this point they may as well allow everyone to roid it up....  

 

Pride was friggin absolutely entertaining and everyone was blown up roided to the ****  (see: Don Frye)   but hell it was entertaining as all mighty hell and it all evened out in the end! 

[SPuDS]

And Anderson Silva failed another drug test...

For MMA at this point they may as well allow everyone to roid it up....

Pride was friggin absolutely entertaining and everyone was blown up roided to the **** (see: Don Frye) but hell it was entertaining as all mighty hell and it all evened out in the end!

Why don't we just give em choice of weapons and rename it thunder done..

[Brandon]

Had you ever watched Pride it was almost like that with sumos fighting little guys and freak show fights with Bob Sapp

[The Unknown Poster]

www.wrestlingobserver.com

 

Highlight notes from UFC press conference - far more testing and stricter penalties, and really a changing of the sport as we know it

Wednesday, 18 February 2015 11:20

 

The UFC announced today that it is looking at July 1, 2015, to implement a random out-of-competition drug testing program that will include all 585 fighters on the roster, as well as enhanced drug testing for headliners before fights.

 

The company is looking at hiring a third party to handle its own testing, as well as work with athletic commissions before fights within their jurisdiction.  The company will help fund commission testing as well as its own program.

 

Lorenzo Fertitta and Dana White acknowledged that for them, things will probably get a lot worse before they get better, in an attempt to clean up the sport.

 

They cited that they were aware of 19 fighters tested out of competition of late and that five failed, and said that showed them there is an issue that needed to be addressed.

 

The other key statement is that they are pushing for stricter penalties, saying that they advocated two year suspensions instead of nine month suspensions for first offense.  They also said that if WADA increased first suspensions for PED use to four years, they would support and follow that change.  They also believe the key athletic commissions would also increase their own suspensiosn for offenders to make this a uniform policy, but that is still something that needs to be worked out. 

 

They said they were looking at this for some time, but the Anderson Silva positive test has sped up the process.  They actually don't have deals in place, and are in talks with the few companies that handle drug testing, but were setting July 1 as the deadline for getting it implemented.

[bigg jay]

It sounds like a good start but it's short on details (at least for now until they get their deals in place).  I wasn't surprised to to see how little they spent on drug testing over the last 2 years (500k) compared to what they are now committing to pay (several million, but no cap & willing to spend whatever it takes according to Lorenzo).   There are a lot of fighters who will either retire or be noticeably less successful in the next little while.

 

The part of about key commissions making things uniform is pretty funny if you've spent any time dealing with them. 

 

This enhanced drug testing has created quite a bit of talk about this possibly pushing fighters towards being considered employees rather than independent contractors.  Year round testing, "uniforms", health insurance and other things are starting to add up.