Sure, why not. Whatever. WWE Network and Wrestlemania

[The Unknown Poster]

They changed directions with Heyman. That was the problem. They wanted an excuse to have Heyman on TV without Brock so put him with Cesaro but then decided he would also keep talking about Brock. So Cesaro came

across as an after though.

[iso_55]

I think Orton and Sheamus are both stale and boring

Oh probably but Sheamus needs a makeover in so many ways. Fashion, style & character. And Cesaro lost to him on Smackdown & lost to Owens on Raw. When you lose to a loser like Sheamus you're not getting a push. How is Cesaro losing twice in a week being pushed over even being over? 

[The Unknown Poster]

This is Sheamus' make over lol. At his age he's likely not getting any great revamping of his character. I'm truly surprised they went with him as the MITB winner because that usually ends up in a world title run and I can't see it for him.

He was a HHH work out buddy years ago and they had him tapped as the heir apparent to Cena if you can believe it. Another example of wwe choosing a guy to be on top rather than pushing a guy on top that is organically over with the crowd.

[Atomic]

I think Sheamus makes a decent heel, I like some of the stuff he's been doing lately. But like you guys I was surprised to see him win MITB. I think that this will be a rare "failed" cash-in when he eventually cashes in the briefcase.

[iso_55]

Sheamus is a mid carder. Not a Top 5 guy.

[Atomic]

Sheamus is a mid carder. Not a Top 5 guy.

You keep saying Top 5 like it means something. So who are the top 5 in your opinion?

[The Unknown Poster]

The problem with choosing a top five is its so subjective depending on the parameters.

Hulk Hogan would never be on anyone's top five as an in ring talent. But he's the most famous wrestler of the modern era. The original national expansion and boon period was built on his back. He's likely #1 in a top five of most important guys to WWE of the modern era.

On the flip side Ric Flair wasn't as famous as Hogan but just as important to Crocket promotions and WCW. There's a good chance without Flair, Ted Turner dkesnt buy the company. He's probably not top five pure worker but he gets consideration as #1 overall wrestler of his time.

In recent years, Daniel Bryan might be #1 when you consider work rate and popularity together. But Bryan didn't draw a lot of money by himself in the same way Hogan drew money or Austin drew money. And it's a shame that when Austin finally got close to the top he was so beat up he wasn't the same calibre of worker he had been.

Brock doesn't mean much for ratings now but he still draws "PPV" buys. He might be #1 most credible guy right now.

You could argue Rollins is the #1 worker right now but he doesn't draw and Cena is still the biggest drawing card. Kevin Owens ha actually been drawing good houses working with Cena, more so than other guys in the same

Position so it says Owens is a draw.

The largest WrestleMania buy rate ever was drawn by the Rock.

Kevin Nash was critical in WCW overtaking WWE but as WWE chamoion he was the worst of the modern era and was eventually detrimental to WCW too.

HBK wasn't a big draw on top. But a great worker. Bret was a great worker, a good draw and helped turn around the WWE as champion and especially as heel foil for Austin in 96/97. But meant nothing to wcw.

Give me a category for top five specifically and we can make our lists. And ofcourse this is North America because Japan is a whole different story.

[iso_55]

 

Sheamus is a mid carder. Not a Top 5 guy.

You keep saying Top 5 like it means something. So who are the top 5 in your opinion?

 

Well, let's see... Cena, Rollins, Orton, Undertaker, Lesnar. Orton is unfortunately being used in that snoozefest feud with Sheamus. It looks like it will never end. 

[Atomic]

Interesting, good stuff from both of you.  TUP, I'm going to lay down some categories for you and my votes for the top 5.

 

Biggest star of all time (guys that the fans are specifically coming out to see):

 

1.  Hulk Hogan

2.  The Rock

3.  Andre The Giant

4.  Stone Cold

5.  The Undertaker

 

Most entertaining (not necessarily technically best wrestler) in the ring right now:

 

1.  Dean Ambrose

2.  Seth Rollins

3.  John Cena

4.  Kevin Owens

5.  Cesaro

 

Most likely next champion:

 

1.  Sting

2.  Sheamus

3.  John Cena

4.  Brock Lesnar

5.  Roman Reigns

[The Unknown Poster]

 

 

Sheamus is a mid carder. Not a Top 5 guy.

You keep saying Top 5 like it means something. So who are the top 5 in your opinion?

 

Well, let's see... Cena, Rollins, Orton, Undertaker, Lesnar. Orton is unfortunately being used in that snoozefest feud with Sheamus. It looks like it will never end. 

 

Well that's a pretty subjective top five.  Cena is the #1 merchandise seller and "draw" but far from top worker.  Seth could be the best worker they have right now but ratings are down under him as champion though he hasnt been booked very well since winning the title.  Undertaker is a needle-mover for PPV's (ie. he's a draw) but he can barely work now.  Orton means nothing as a draw or ratings mover and I'd guess his merch is "okay" but not huge.  His in-ring work is just about as "perfect" as you can get if you went back to 2003 and built a prototypical WWE worker.  Unfortunately that also means he's boring and he's very played out.  He's popular enough that WWE always goes to him when they need a secondary face under Cena but he prefers being heel and his style is suited more for a heel.

 

Orton came along at a time when WWE decided if they got a good guy at 20 years old, they could have a top draw for 20 years.  It had been a trend that top guys hit their stride in their mid-30's and then only have about 5 years as tippy top guys who could handle the work-load and keep up in the ring.  So Orton was pushed super hard as a 20-something.  But all it did was make him played out before he was 30.  And again, he was the victim of the HHH-style of cutting everyone's balls off.  Orton's face turn was historically bad.

[The Unknown Poster]

Interesting, good stuff from both of you.  TUP, I'm going to lay down some categories for you and my votes for the top 5.

 

Biggest star of all time (guys that the fans are specifically coming out to see):

 

1.  Hulk Hogan

2.  The Rock

3.  Andre The Giant

4.  Stone Cold

5.  The Undertaker

 

Most entertaining (not necessarily technically best wrestler) in the ring right now:

 

1.  Dean Ambrose

2.  Seth Rollins

3.  John Cena

4.  Kevin Owens

5.  Cesaro

 

Most likely next champion:

 

1.  Sting

2.  Sheamus

3.  John Cena

4.  Brock Lesnar

5.  Roman Reigns

 

Biggest Star of All Time - I'd caveat this as "modern" era (ie. since national expansion).  Because if its truly all time, you have to look at Bruno Sammartino, Jim Londos etc.

 

I think the list might look like:

 

1) Hogan

2) Austin

3) Rocky

4) Andre

5) Cena

 

And thats without doing a little research.  Ric Flair was huge everywhere that WWE wasnt.  And he was a ratings mover even when being booked under in WCW in the late 90's.  He didnt mean anything in WWE though, oddly enough.  He also popped a gigantic rating for the first Hogan/Flair match in WCW which was long after that match should have meant anything.

 

Goldberg was a mover too but had limited longevity.  Randy Savage was good.  Sting was never much of a draw on top, which might be surprising.  It might have to do with the idea that WCW was more of a "workers" promotion so their fans were conditioned to see great work from the top guys and Sting wasnt a great worker or a great promo (much better promo now even in deliverying horribly written WWE promos).  He drew the one monster buy rate for the Hogan match at Starrcade but the match was so bad and Hogan had the fix in on Sting that match to cut his balls off (and cut Bret's balls off at the same time).

 

Can't really argue with most entertaining right now.  Its pretty subjective.  New Day would get plenty of votes.  Paul Heyman would too.

 

I cant imagine any scenario where Sheamus is WWE Champion other than the fact WWE are too blinded by their own BS to see that he shouldnt be.  If I had to bet, I'd bet Seth beats Sting to declare himself the best ever, better than Hunter because I guess WWE is retconning all of wrestling history to record that Hunter is somehow they greatest of all time (barf).  Plus, they seem to think they are still at war with WCW so they wont want Sting to win.  And they arent even pretending to book this match like it matters.  All Sting's and Seth's promos are about Hunter.

 

I agree though, I like Ambrose.  If he got the Roman push, he'd be their top guy right now.  Instead they use the more over guy (Ambrose) to try and help get over the guy they want to be the more over guy (Roman),  Owens is great too, unique look.  They better knock off the fat jokes though.  Cesaro could be something too.  I'd consider giving him a suave super-agent type of gimmick because he sort of has that Bond villain thing going on.

 

I'd like to also mention Sasha Banks who is terrific and could be a huge star if they let her.

 

Lets talk top five best of all time (modern era) using the combination of talent, promos, charisma and "it" factor.  This is sometimes a popularity contest and we're all biased.

 

1) Ric Flair

2) Bret Hart

3) Kurt Angle

4) Brock Lesnar

5) Austin/Rocky (tie)

 

When I give guys direction though, I'll say things like "sell like Ricky Steamboat".  Recently I told one of our tag teams to stop watching the Young Bucks and start watching The Midnight Express and Tully/Arn.  To a degree, thats a measuring stick if guys in the business use certain guys to learn from...because it means they are the best, certainly at specific aspects that they want to emulate.  A ton of indy guys cut promos like the Rock once he burst onto the scene.  You had your Goldberg clones.  One of my competitors who Im not a huge personal fan of, I always complement his selling as "Steamboat-like".

 

We had a group of guys who used to study a lot of Japanese tapes and they'd be criticised but they would take things from Japanese workers and incorporate them into an American style and got over big locally (and ended up working in Japan and Mexico).

[Atomic]

Really good stuff.  Certainly I considered Randy Savage for my top 5 stars of all time.  New Day is definitely entertaining in and out of the ring right now, I think Big E in particular is doing a great job.

 

I love the inclusion of Kurt Angle on your list.  One of the great all-time heels in my opinion.  I've never been a Ric Flair fan personally, I never got the hype.  But no doubt he is one of the biggest stars.

[The Unknown Poster]

The problem with Ric Flair to a lot of fans is that, unless you bought WCW shows or had sattelite, we wrent exposed to his best stuff.  And by the time we were, he wasnt the same in-ring performer he was in his prime.  Or if you watch the DVD collections, the style of wrestling from the late 70's and 80's was a stark contrast to what we were used to in the attitude era.

 

I followed Flair in the "Apter Mags" (the worked wrestling magazines run by Bill Apter) and was a fan before I ever saw him live.  His promos were all world and he carried himself like a champion.  He was the quintisential "World Champion".  But where he worked (NWA and WCW) their booking was opposite to WWE's.  WWE had the super-hero (Hogan) who never lost and was fed a diet of monsters to beat.  Flair was a great worker who you hated by you respected his talent and knew he could beat guys fair and square but chose not to.  He worked so many 60 minute and 90 minute matches, contrasting to Hogan working 10 minute matches and being gone before intermission.

 

Flair was more realistic in his character.  Hogan was the larger than life persona.  Hogan never did jobs.  Flair did lots of jobs and wore as a badge of pride his ability to help get other guys over.

 

And the NWA business model was such that Flair was a traveling world champion that would come to town to work the local baby face and beat him by nefarious means, thus giving him the rub as being able to hang with the World Champion.  And when he did finally get beat, it was a big deal.  Not as big as Hogan losing because he lost so rarely but Hogan never made anyone else a star.  Flair made Sting.  Flair helped make the Von Erich's.  Flair put Steamboat over.  Flair made Windham.  etc etc etc.  And he could transition to sympathetic face so easily.  I think it was 1988 when WCW was in trouble and Flair and Jim Ross took over the booking and Flair brought back Steamboat and Terry Funk to feud with going from a heel working great matches with Steamboat, transitioning to a face to work "extreme" matches with Funk, re-forming the 4 Horsemen with Sting as a member, turning on Sting and it was all a brilliant set up to make Sting's the new top guy....and Sting blew out his knee climbing a cage and it completely ruined the plans.

 

And the 4 Horsemen really put the idea of an elite stable on the map.  And it was such an organic thing.  Flair occasionally teamed with the Anderson's.  At one TV taping, to save time, they had Flair, Tully, Anderson's and JJ Dillon do a group promo.  Arn Anderson put over the four of them as the best in the business and off the cuff referred to them as the four horsemen of the Apocalypse.  And it was born right there.  Brilliant.  Could never happen today.

 

But even as an older guy, he could tell a great story when motivated.  His "retirement" match with Vader at Starrcade..incredible (was supposed to be Vader vs Sid but Sid got into the hotel room brawl with Arn where both ended up stabbed and he got fired).  Or his match on RAW with Hunter for the World title when they were buddies and Hunter blew Flair off, causing him to "take the match seriously" was a thing of beauty where you actually thought Flair might win the World title from Hunter on an episode of RAW...just nuts.  And ofcourse his match with HBK at WM was tremendous.  Even when WCW gave him goofy stuff like being locked in an insane asylum with Scott Hall, he hit it out of the ball park.

 

But I digress....

 

Kurt Angle, had he not had demons, would have stayed in WWE and be considered the greatest of all time right now, I bet.  Just a masterful worker.  Some would knock him for almost being "too" spot-heavy, doing incredible things rather than slowing it down and telling the story.  But I loved his matches.  A more athletic Bret Hart...though Bret was a bit better of the story teller.  Angle just announced he is leaving TNA at the end of the year (TNA is probably leaving the world at the end of the year).  WWE passed on Angle previously...which sucks.  I hope he goes back.

[iso_55]

Angle had had so many injuries that I wonder how good of a worker he still is. I never watch TNA so I don't know how he has fared much since leaving WWE. I know Angle went thru a messy divorce that became part of his storyline a few years ago & has had had addiction & drinking problems as well. I think from everything I've read that he has a lot of issues & the WWE may not want him back. I remember Angle before he left WWE. He was on top of his game & was quite funny doing his promos. I really enjoyed what he did in WWE. 

[Jpan85]

If I had to go just my personal top 5 of all time who I like watching both in and out of ring

 

1. Ric Flair

2. The Rock

3. Steve Austin

4. Roddy Piper

5. CM Punk

 

Dusty and few other are really close on the list.

 

Currently

 

1. Seth Rollins

2. Dean Ambrose

3. Kevin Owens

4. Dolph Ziggler

5. Charlotte/ Brock

[Noeller]

Austin

Rocky 

Foley 

Bret Hart

Shawn Michaels

[Atomic]

If I had to go just my personal top 5 of all time who I like watching both in and out of ring

 

1. Ric Flair

2. The Rock

3. Steve Austin

4. Roddy Piper

5. CM Punk

 

Dusty and few other are really close on the list.

 

Currently

 

1. Seth Rollins

2. Dean Ambrose

3. Kevin Owens

4. Dolph Ziggler

5. Charlotte/ Brock

 

Ziggler used to be one of my favourites but I feel like he's kinda losing it.  Back in early 2014 when WWE did a house show here, his match with The Miz was the best match of the night, IMO.  And looking back at the card from that night, it was actually a star studded cast.  Wyatt Family vs The Shield, Kane vs Daniel Bryan in a cage, Batista, Big Show, Christian, Del Rio, the Rhodes Brothers, the Bellas. Alicia Fox, Sandow, Kofi Kingston..... and the best match for sure was Ziggler vs The Miz.  You could tell they really put their hearts into it.

[Atomic]

Austin

Rocky 

Foley 

Bret Hart

Shawn Michaels

 

That's a good list from the era I grew up with.  Great list actually.  One name I'd add would be Razor Ramon because he was just awesome.

[Noeller]

I was "raised" on the Attitude Era, and two of my personal faves were always Val Venis and The Godfather....loved their whole gimmick.

[iso_55]

My five all time (heavy on the AWA)

 

Nick Bockwinkel

Baron Von Rashke

Bobby Heenan (As a manager)

Dr X

Steve Austin

[The Unknown Poster]

Angle's divorce itself wasn't so messy. It was that Jeff Jarett and Karen Angle began dating secretly. JJ was minority owner of TNA so Angle's boss. It led to a lot of bad feelings by many there. And led to JJ being ousted. Ofcourse he came back and worked a program with Kurt and they are all friendly now.

Kurt can still go. Part of his problem was his desire to always give max effort and it just wore his body down. WWE turned him down a couple of times. Most recently there was beat because Angle called Hunter who said he wasn't interested and Angle went over his head to Vince and Vince backed Hunter.

In a side note, one of WWE's best angles was screwed by Hunter when Steph had the relationship with Kurt and everyone wanted her to dump Hunter and he mixed it. Cut Kurt's balls off. Vintage Hunter.

[Goalie]

Best

Austin

Hogan

Rock

Bret

HBK

Current

Cesaro

Rollins

Owens

New Day

Daniel Bryan

New Category lol.. guys that would make me say Holy ****...

Foley

Jeff Hardy

Edge and Christian

Neville currently and

Sabu

[Goalie]

I was "raised" on the Attitude Era, and two of my personal faves were always Val Venis and The Godfather....loved their whole gimmick.

Godfather wad awesome. Pimpin ain't easy.... the hooooo train. Val was hilarious and Canadian and married to Edges sister at one point. Dude had some good lines Tho.

[Goalie]

As for Angle... wouldn't shock me one bit to see him return to wwe at the royal rumble. Really would love to see that angle vs Bryan match Kurt wants so badly.

[iso_55]

Bryan may never wrestle again with that neck injury. How did he injure it originally?