White Cop Shoots Black Man, Charged With Murder

[The Unknown Poster]

So what do we think about this?

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/08/us/south-carolina-officer-charged-with-murder/index.html

 

 

I have a few concerns.  Firstly, the cop was 100% wrong and the charges are 100% correct.  But I keep seeing the media making this a racial thing and there isnt any evidence that its racially motivated yet.  That concerns me.  The cop lied and manufactured a story.  But now it seems the family of the victim is too and that does a dis-service to the facts of the case.  The incident is bad enough without re-writing the victim as a saint.

 

Can we avoid riots in this case?

[Atomic]

How could it not be racially motivated?  You're never going to hear the guy say he hates black people or that he is a member of the KKK, if that's what you're waiting for.  The racial divide is ingrained in their society.  That cop knew that he could get away with killing a black guy and that's why he shot him when there was no real reason to do so.  If he hadn't been caught on camera, he gets off scot-free based on the "he took my taser" story.

 

You say "Can we avoid riots?"  Well... sometimes riots are necessary to effect real change.  The ugly side of that is people rioting and looting just for the sake of it.  But you don't change a corrupt and broken system with a petition and a peaceful protest outside the state legislature.

[Jacquie]

Aren't you doing the same thing by using race in the title of your thread?

[The Unknown Poster]

Im mimicking the CNN story (and every other story on the subject) and I also assumed the thread title would tell you all exactly what story it was about.

 

The thing is, we dont know if it was racially motivated.  When that neighbourhood watch guy shot someone the media fell all over themselves to report "white guy shoots black kid" only to find, with disappointment no doubt, that he was latino.  The media is always looking for a race story.

 

It certainly wouldnt surprise me to learn that race played a role.  But if that guy had been white or latino or asian, does the cop still fire his gun?  Maybe.  To me, he seemed pretty confident in firing and then planting evidence at the scene.  The evidence would have been enough to back up his bogus story regardless of ethnicity.

 

The story yesterday was the guy was running from police because he didnt want to pay back child support and knew he'd be going to jail.  Today it's "he feared for his life".  It makes for a better media story but the danger in the "feared for his life" narrative is, it creates the idea that anyone being tasered should run from the police because it's an acceptable response.  Keep in mind, this cop did not happen upon this victim and decide to kill him.  He tried to arrest him, then he tasered him.

 

The other issue Im curious about since I've never been tasered is the pyschological aspect to it.  Usually a person can run away after being tased.  Could the choice to run be a reflex fight or flight response to the experience?  And if so, it changes things as far as using tasers go.

[Brandon]

All I have to say is who cares?

Tonnes of people of all different colors kill people every day in the States.

The glorification of any of these incidents are pure garbage.

[Atomic]

I doubt you could convict the cop of any kind of racial hate crime or anything like that.  But it is an example of systemic racism, without a doubt.  And that's what people are so pissed off about... that this keeps happening.  This is not an isolated incident.  The core problem is that the cop was so quick to pull his gun and start firing.  Not even a second thought.  That shows you the culture around the police department, right there.  It's not one bad apple.... the whole damn system is ******.

[WBBFanWest]

Im mimicking the CNN story (and every other story on the subject) and I also assumed the thread title would tell you all exactly what story it was about.

 

The thing is, we dont know if it was racially motivated.  When that neighbourhood watch guy shot someone the media fell all over themselves to report "white guy shoots black kid" only to find, with disappointment no doubt, that he was latino.  The media is always looking for a race story.

 

It certainly wouldnt surprise me to learn that race played a role.  But if that guy had been white or latino or asian, does the cop still fire his gun?  Maybe.  To me, he seemed pretty confident in firing and then planting evidence at the scene.  The evidence would have been enough to back up his bogus story regardless of ethnicity.

 

The story yesterday was the guy was running from police because he didnt want to pay back child support and knew he'd be going to jail.  Today it's "he feared for his life".  It makes for a better media story but the danger in the "feared for his life" narrative is, it creates the idea that anyone being tasered should run from the police because it's an acceptable response.  Keep in mind, this cop did not happen upon this victim and decide to kill him.  He tried to arrest him, then he tasered him.

 

The other issue Im curious about since I've never been tasered is the pyschological aspect to it.  Usually a person can run away after being tased.  Could the choice to run be a reflex fight or flight response to the experience?  And if so, it changes things as far as using tasers go.

 

You don't need to say you've never been tased because your idea that people can "usually can run away" is wrong, unless you count lying on the ground and twitching as running.  And as to whether these things are racially motivated or not, here's a relatively easy test.  List all the unarmed black people that have been shot by white police in the past year or so.  Now list all the unarmed white people shot by white officers.  Compare. 

[The Unknown Poster]

I certainly dont disagree.  He didnt even miss a beat in planting the taser.

 

I had a incident locally where the cops lied.  I was literally shocked.  They lied in written statements.  They lied to investigators.  They got civilian witnesses to lie.  It was unbelievable.  They stonewalled the Crown.  The saving grace was that we had video footage and when we wouldnt give it to them the night of the incident, they got a search warrant and sent a 20 person team down to get it.  Worst part?  The crown, who was stonewalled in her investigation, ended up covering for the police and would only dismiss the charges (that were shown by the video to be wrongfully laid) if the complaint against the police (which LERA was vigorously pursuing) was also dropped.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

Im mimicking the CNN story (and every other story on the subject) and I also assumed the thread title would tell you all exactly what story it was about.

 

The thing is, we dont know if it was racially motivated.  When that neighbourhood watch guy shot someone the media fell all over themselves to report "white guy shoots black kid" only to find, with disappointment no doubt, that he was latino.  The media is always looking for a race story.

 

It certainly wouldnt surprise me to learn that race played a role.  But if that guy had been white or latino or asian, does the cop still fire his gun?  Maybe.  To me, he seemed pretty confident in firing and then planting evidence at the scene.  The evidence would have been enough to back up his bogus story regardless of ethnicity.

 

The story yesterday was the guy was running from police because he didnt want to pay back child support and knew he'd be going to jail.  Today it's "he feared for his life".  It makes for a better media story but the danger in the "feared for his life" narrative is, it creates the idea that anyone being tasered should run from the police because it's an acceptable response.  Keep in mind, this cop did not happen upon this victim and decide to kill him.  He tried to arrest him, then he tasered him.

 

The other issue Im curious about since I've never been tasered is the pyschological aspect to it.  Usually a person can run away after being tased.  Could the choice to run be a reflex fight or flight response to the experience?  And if so, it changes things as far as using tasers go.

 

You don't need to say you've never been tased because your idea that people can "usually can run away" is wrong, unless you count lying on the ground and twitching as running.  And as to whether these things are racially motivated or not, here's a relatively easy test.  List all the unarmed black people that have been shot by white police in the past year or so.  Now list all the unarmed white people shot by white officers.  Compare. 

 

Typo,  I mean a person CAN'T usually run away.  My bad.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

Im mimicking the CNN story (and every other story on the subject) and I also assumed the thread title would tell you all exactly what story it was about.

 

The thing is, we dont know if it was racially motivated.  When that neighbourhood watch guy shot someone the media fell all over themselves to report "white guy shoots black kid" only to find, with disappointment no doubt, that he was latino.  The media is always looking for a race story.

 

It certainly wouldnt surprise me to learn that race played a role.  But if that guy had been white or latino or asian, does the cop still fire his gun?  Maybe.  To me, he seemed pretty confident in firing and then planting evidence at the scene.  The evidence would have been enough to back up his bogus story regardless of ethnicity.

 

The story yesterday was the guy was running from police because he didnt want to pay back child support and knew he'd be going to jail.  Today it's "he feared for his life".  It makes for a better media story but the danger in the "feared for his life" narrative is, it creates the idea that anyone being tasered should run from the police because it's an acceptable response.  Keep in mind, this cop did not happen upon this victim and decide to kill him.  He tried to arrest him, then he tasered him.

 

The other issue Im curious about since I've never been tasered is the pyschological aspect to it.  Usually a person can run away after being tased.  Could the choice to run be a reflex fight or flight response to the experience?  And if so, it changes things as far as using tasers go.

 

You don't need to say you've never been tased because your idea that people can "usually can run away" is wrong, unless you count lying on the ground and twitching as running.  And as to whether these things are racially motivated or not, here's a relatively easy test.  List all the unarmed black people that have been shot by white police in the past year or so.  Now list all the unarmed white people shot by white officers.  Compare. 

 

Name all the white people shot by white cops that anyone knows about because it was news?  Not arguing your point but it's difficult to compare based on media coverage.

[Atomic]

Everything said before the video was released...

 

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/04/07/3644189/everything-police-said-walter-scotts-death-video-showed-really-happened/

[The Unknown Poster]

Cops lie.

[Brandon]

Cops lie.

Everyone lies.

Did you know priests lie as well?

Why generalize?

[Mr Dee]

Cops lie.

I'm sure what you meant to say was, the cop lied.

You can't isolate any segment of society and label it.

It would be closer to say - everybody lies...in some form or other.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

Cops lie.

Everyone lies.

Did you know priests lie as well?

Why generalize?

 

Because we're talking about cops.

[Atomic]

 

Cops lie.

Everyone lies.

Did you know priests lie as well?

Why generalize?

 

 

Seems like you're getting pretty riled up for someone who claims "Nobody cares."  If you don't care, then get out of here.  Some people care about more than what happens right outside their own front door.

[The Unknown Poster]

Everything said before the video was released...

 

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/04/07/3644189/everything-police-said-walter-scotts-death-video-showed-really-happened/

The other interesting angle to this is the cops that backed up the shooter.  The shooter clearly planted the tazer in sight of other officers.  Every shot was into the back of the victim.  Every single cop that lied to protect the shooter shooter should also be charged. 

 

In the local case I was a part of that I referenced above, the partner of the main cop in question lied in his written report to back up his partner.  When questioned by LERA he uncomfortably admitted he might not have seen everything.  I remember saying to my then-boss, "can you believe these other cops lied to back up their partner?" and he replied "yeah but wouldnt we do the same thing?"  Good point.

 

I said they should have cameras in cockpits.  Technology should be embraced.  Put body cams on all cops with no off button.

 

Something about the video though... at the very beginning, as the witness comes upon the scene it's very difficult to see what is happening but it appears the tazer leads are extending from the victim.  But it appears to me that the taser itself is thrown or dropped to the ground and after watching it a few times, doesnt it appear that the victim tossed the tazer down?  That would line up with the cop's statement that there was a tussle and the victim got hold of his tazer.  (the best lies are ones that are as close to the truth as possible). 

 

The shooter seems to have two potential defenses (neither of them very good): Self defense (ie. victim took his tazer despite the shooting happening as the victim was running).  And the law in that state allows for shooting a fleeing suspect if there is probably cause to indicate he is a threat to the community.  Common sense tells us there was no imminent threat to the community but I cant see any possible hail mary defense by this guy.

 

The victim had a long rap sheet, but only one violent crime (if I recall correctly).

[17to85]

I doubt you could convict the cop of any kind of racial hate crime or anything like that.  But it is an example of systemic racism, without a doubt.  And that's what people are so pissed off about... that this keeps happening.  This is not an isolated incident.  The core problem is that the cop was so quick to pull his gun and start firing.  Not even a second thought.  That shows you the culture around the police department, right there.  It's not one bad apple.... the whole damn system is ******.

That doesn't mean it's racism though... It's much more likely that it's classism much more than racism. Just so happens that certain demographics are over represented in the poorest class and poverty and questionable behaviours that lead to run ins with police go hand in hand. I don't believe there is as much racism as people think. It's not like it's the middle class black people getting shot by police right?

[The Unknown Poster]

 

I doubt you could convict the cop of any kind of racial hate crime or anything like that.  But it is an example of systemic racism, without a doubt.  And that's what people are so pissed off about... that this keeps happening.  This is not an isolated incident.  The core problem is that the cop was so quick to pull his gun and start firing.  Not even a second thought.  That shows you the culture around the police department, right there.  It's not one bad apple.... the whole damn system is ******.

That doesn't mean it's racism though... It's much more likely that it's classism much more than racism. Just so happens that certain demographics are over represented in the poorest class and poverty and questionable behaviours that lead to run ins with police go hand in hand. I don't believe there is as much racism as people think. It's not like it's the middle class black people getting shot by police right?

 

I tend to think this is a strong point.  And while the outcome was 100% wrong and the actions of the cop at the end were 100% wrong, the victim was not walking down the street and was suddenly shot in the back by a racist cop.  He had warrants.  He was stopped for a traffic violation.  He ran from police.  According to his own brother (before they tried to change the narrative) he ran because he knew he would go to jail for warrants.  it doesnt change the fact the cop should not have shot him.  But it does add context to how events unfolded that day.

 

We've seen incidents where a criminal attacks a cop with a knife and the cop shoots him and people argue that since it was only a knife the cop should have chosen some other action.  And usually we say "dont attack a cop, you wont get shot".  Losing your life is a consequence that far outweighs the infraction but it's still a sad fact that there is a very real chance the shooter in this case did not instigate events that ended with the victim's death.  I hesitate to write that because I dont want to cloud the fact that the cop was wrong and murdered this guy. 

[Atomic]

 

I doubt you could convict the cop of any kind of racial hate crime or anything like that.  But it is an example of systemic racism, without a doubt.  And that's what people are so pissed off about... that this keeps happening.  This is not an isolated incident.  The core problem is that the cop was so quick to pull his gun and start firing.  Not even a second thought.  That shows you the culture around the police department, right there.  It's not one bad apple.... the whole damn system is ******.

That doesn't mean it's racism though... It's much more likely that it's classism much more than racism. Just so happens that certain demographics are over represented in the poorest class and poverty and questionable behaviours that lead to run ins with police go hand in hand. I don't believe there is as much racism as people think. It's not like it's the middle class black people getting shot by police right?

 

 

It's all intertwined, you can't separate one from the other.  Do you believe that the cop would have acted the same in the exact same circumstances if the victim was white, all other things equal?  I'm not so sure.  Maybe, though.

[johnzo]

the victim was not walking down the street and was suddenly shot in the back by a racist cop. He had warrants. He was stopped for a traffic violation. He ran from police. According to his own brother (before they tried to change the narrative) he ran because he knew he would go to jail for warrants. it doesnt change the fact the cop should not have shot him. But it does add context to how events unfolded that day.

 

If you're considering context about the shooting, please also consider the larger context in which the shooting took place: one in which it's widely believed that the police prey on black people without consequence.

Alas, it's very difficult to prove this conclusively because the data simply isn't there -- the FBI does do some reporting on killings by police, but the data is self-reported by local/state police departments and participation in the reporting is not mandatory.

That said, the anecdotes do not flatter the police. The federal Ferguson report was some scary reading; the police department there was basically operating as a shakedown crew that propped up city revenues. The New York City stop-and-frisk program targeted people of color way out of proportion to white people. Here in Seattle, the head of the police officers' guild called out his union brothers and sisters for being racist and anti-gay, and encouraged them to leave Seattle and go to departments where that kind of thinking was tolerated. When your union president is talking about how bad things are, you know there's a problem -- and that's in cozy liberal Seattle where we're supposedly past this kind of thing. 

 

I wish the federal government would force local police departments to report demographic information on law enforcement killings so that Americans could be better informed about this issue. My own suspicion is that, by and large, cops feel more empowered to **** with people of color than they do to **** with white people.  I think this concern shouldn't be dismissed: it should be studied just like any other social science hypothesis.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

the victim was not walking down the street and was suddenly shot in the back by a racist cop. He had warrants. He was stopped for a traffic violation. He ran from police. According to his own brother (before they tried to change the narrative) he ran because he knew he would go to jail for warrants. it doesnt change the fact the cop should not have shot him. But it does add context to how events unfolded that day.

If you're considering context about the shooting, please also consider the context in which the shooting took place: one in which it's widely believed that the police prey on black people without consequence.

Alas, it's very difficult to prove this conclusively because the data simply isn't there -- the FBI does do some reporting on killings by police, but the data is self-reported by local/state police departments and participation in the reporting is not mandatory.

That said, the anecdotes do not flatter the police. The federal Ferguson report was some scary reading; the police department there was basically operating as a shakedown crew that propped up city revenues. Here in Seattle, the head of the police officers' guild called out his union brothers and sisters for being racist and anti-gay, and encouraged them to leave Seattle and go to departments where that kind of thinking was tolerated. When your union president is talking about how bad things are, you know there's a problem -- and that's in cozy liberal Seattle where we're supposedly past this kind of thing.

I wish the federal government would force local police departments to report demographic information on law enforcement killings so that Americans could have a better-informed discussion about these issues. My own suspicion is that, in the big picture, cops feel more empowered to **** with people of color than they do to **** with white people.

 

 

Absolutely.  But we have to be specific to the facts not beliefs.  The traffic stop was justified.  What happened after that, between the traffic stop and the shooting, we dont know.  The cop said there was a physical altercation - we dont know that.  The cop said he used his tazer.  The video shows that appears to be true.  The cop said the victim took his tazer.  The video shows that might be true.  The victim's brother said he ran because he knew he'd go to jail for outstanding warrants.  That supports the notion that the victim might have fought with the police in an effort to escape.

 

The problem with all that is.  The video shows the cop lied.  So nothing he says can be taken at its word.

[johnzo]

That doesn't mean it's racism though... It's much more likely that it's classism much more than racism. Just so happens that certain demographics are over represented in the poorest class and poverty and questionable behaviours that lead to run ins with police go hand in hand. I don't believe there is as much racism as people think. It's not like it's the middle class black people getting shot by police right?

 

 

I think the "police aren't targeting black people because they're black, but only because they're poor" argument is pretty much horseshit.  The numbers don't add up. Consider how black people fare in non-fatal encounters with law enforcement:

 

According to the 2009 U.S. Census (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0695.pdf) there were about 3.7 million black families under $30,000 income in the USA, and 13.1 million white families under $30,000 income.

If the imprisonment numbers tracked with income, then you'd expect to see roughly 3-4x as many white people in jail as black people, because there are 3-4x more poor white people than poor black people.

However, according to the Prison Policy Initiative (http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/rates.html) blacks and whites each account for about 40% of the prison population.  Blacks are many times more likely to be imprisoned than whites are.

If the American justice system is indeed blind to race, then why are black people being imprisoned at such an elevated rate?

[Jacquie]

The video I saw shows the end of the scuffle and I don't think the taser was actually fired. The video does show after the shooting the cop running back to where the scuffle occurred, picking something up and dropping it (the taser) next to the man. Staging the scene shows he knew he wasn't justified in shooting the man.

[17to85]

 

That doesn't mean it's racism though... It's much more likely that it's classism much more than racism. Just so happens that certain demographics are over represented in the poorest class and poverty and questionable behaviours that lead to run ins with police go hand in hand. I don't believe there is as much racism as people think. It's not like it's the middle class black people getting shot by police right?

 

 

I think the "police aren't targeting black people because they're black, but only because they're poor" argument is pretty much horseshit.  The numbers don't add up.

 

Consider how black people fare in non-fatal encounters with law enforcement: according to the 2009 U.S. Census (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0695.pdf) there were about 3.7 million black families under $30,000 income in the USA, and 13.1 million white families under $30,000 income.

If the imprisonment numbers tracked with income, then you'd expect to see roughly 3-4x as many white people in jail as black people, because there are many many more poor white people than poor black people.

However, according to the Prison Policy Initiative (http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/rates.html) blacks and whites each account for about 40% of the prison population.  Blacks are many times more likely to be imprisoned than whites are.

If the American justice system is indeed blind to race, then why are black people being imprisoned at such an elevated rate?

 

Well what are the geographic distributions of these poor people? Are poor white people located in smaller rural settings and poor black people in urban environments? That setting can make a huge difference on whether someone is involved in crime. 

 

I think it's the easy way out to just play the race card. Same thing happens up here when people play the race card with regards to the incarceration levels for natives vs. non-natives. It's not a race thing other than one race is over represented in the absolute **** economic conditions.