White Cop Shoots Black Man, Charged With Murder

[Fraser]

I agree there should be mandatory body cams at all times. They'd pay for themselves too.

[WBBFanWest]

 

 

I doubt you could convict the cop of any kind of racial hate crime or anything like that.  But it is an example of systemic racism, without a doubt.  And that's what people are so pissed off about... that this keeps happening.  This is not an isolated incident.  The core problem is that the cop was so quick to pull his gun and start firing.  Not even a second thought.  That shows you the culture around the police department, right there.  It's not one bad apple.... the whole damn system is ******.

That doesn't mean it's racism though... It's much more likely that it's classism much more than racism. Just so happens that certain demographics are over represented in the poorest class and poverty and questionable behaviours that lead to run ins with police go hand in hand. I don't believe there is as much racism as people think. It's not like it's the middle class black people getting shot by police right?

 

I tend to think this is a strong point.  And while the outcome was 100% wrong and the actions of the cop at the end were 100% wrong, the victim was not walking down the street and was suddenly shot in the back by a racist cop.  He had warrants.  He was stopped for a traffic violation.  He ran from police.  According to his own brother (before they tried to change the narrative) he ran because he knew he would go to jail for warrants.  it doesnt change the fact the cop should not have shot him.  But it does add context to how events unfolded that day.

 

We've seen incidents where a criminal attacks a cop with a knife and the cop shoots him and people argue that since it was only a knife the cop should have chosen some other action.  And usually we say "dont attack a cop, you wont get shot".  Losing your life is a consequence that far outweighs the infraction but it's still a sad fact that there is a very real chance the shooter in this case did not instigate events that ended with the victim's death.  I hesitate to write that because I dont want to cloud the fact that the cop was wrong and murdered this guy. 

 

You have a strange way of seeing the world.  What led to the victim's death was the officer aiming and firing his service pistol.  That was the event that led to the death, nothing else, so yea, the shooter absolutely instigated the event.  Unless you are arguing that the officer was firing a bunch of warning shots and the victim was running in front of them on purpose.  Are you arguing that?

[johnzo]

It's not a race thing other than one race is over represented in the absolute **** economic conditions.

 

How do you know this?

 

Would you say that race is absolutely never ever a factor in any American law enforcement encounter?  You think a black man and a white man will be treated equally when they're pulled over by a highway patrol in, say, Mississippi?

[The Unknown Poster]

The video I saw shows the end of the scuffle and I don't think the taser was actually fired. The video does show after the shooting the cop running back to where the scuffle occurred, picking something up and dropping it (the taser) next to the man. Staging the scene shows he knew he wasn't justified in shooting the man.

Its hard to see in the video but other descriptions I've read seem to indicate it looks like you can see the tazer leads as though they were shot into the victim.  So I dont know what the deal was.  The tazer can still be used as a weapon after firing its leads as it also acts as a stun gun (ie. doesnt need to be fired).

 

To be perfectly honest, I think the cop was in the right up until the moment he fired.  Ofcourse I have no evidence of that either way.  But this doesnt sound like a racially motivated traffic stop or anything like that.  It seems like a stupid, lazy, ego-driven cop that decided screw it, im gonna shoot this guy instead of running after him. 

 

His staging of the scene showed immediate awareness that he knew he was wrong.

 

We've seen lots of cops (probably many of us personally) who have a huge ego and power trip.  There was a video posted recently of a detective in New York just ripping into an Uber driver and it was utterly ridiculous.  There was a hint of racism in his verbiage too.  I felt terrible for the driver.  It's very difficult to actually fight back.

 

When speaking with my lawyer about an incident and considering the offer to drop the case, I was so angry I said no, Im not dropping my complaint.  I have witnesses and video.  The cops were wrong and they lied.  My lawyer even said look, we can do that if you want and you'll probably win but dont think for a second every cop in this town wont know your name, license plate number, address etc.  Is that what you want?

[WBBFanWest]

 

 

That doesn't mean it's racism though... It's much more likely that it's classism much more than racism. Just so happens that certain demographics are over represented in the poorest class and poverty and questionable behaviours that lead to run ins with police go hand in hand. I don't believe there is as much racism as people think. It's not like it's the middle class black people getting shot by police right?

 

 

I think the "police aren't targeting black people because they're black, but only because they're poor" argument is pretty much horseshit.  The numbers don't add up.

 

Consider how black people fare in non-fatal encounters with law enforcement: according to the 2009 U.S. Census (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0695.pdf) there were about 3.7 million black families under $30,000 income in the USA, and 13.1 million white families under $30,000 income.

If the imprisonment numbers tracked with income, then you'd expect to see roughly 3-4x as many white people in jail as black people, because there are many many more poor white people than poor black people.

However, according to the Prison Policy Initiative (http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/rates.html) blacks and whites each account for about 40% of the prison population.  Blacks are many times more likely to be imprisoned than whites are.

If the American justice system is indeed blind to race, then why are black people being imprisoned at such an elevated rate?

 

Well what are the geographic distributions of these poor people? Are poor white people located in smaller rural settings and poor black people in urban environments? That setting can make a huge difference on whether someone is involved in crime. 

 

I think it's the easy way out to just play the race card. Same thing happens up here when people play the race card with regards to the incarceration levels for natives vs. non-natives. It's not a race thing other than one race is over represented in the absolute **** economic conditions.

 

And I think it's naive (at best) to suggest that race is not an issue.  Prejudice and racism exists.  One can try and find other explanations that might be a bit more palatable than admitting the obvious, but that doesn't change reality,  

[The Unknown Poster]

 

 

 

I doubt you could convict the cop of any kind of racial hate crime or anything like that.  But it is an example of systemic racism, without a doubt.  And that's what people are so pissed off about... that this keeps happening.  This is not an isolated incident.  The core problem is that the cop was so quick to pull his gun and start firing.  Not even a second thought.  That shows you the culture around the police department, right there.  It's not one bad apple.... the whole damn system is ******.

That doesn't mean it's racism though... It's much more likely that it's classism much more than racism. Just so happens that certain demographics are over represented in the poorest class and poverty and questionable behaviours that lead to run ins with police go hand in hand. I don't believe there is as much racism as people think. It's not like it's the middle class black people getting shot by police right?

 

I tend to think this is a strong point.  And while the outcome was 100% wrong and the actions of the cop at the end were 100% wrong, the victim was not walking down the street and was suddenly shot in the back by a racist cop.  He had warrants.  He was stopped for a traffic violation.  He ran from police.  According to his own brother (before they tried to change the narrative) he ran because he knew he would go to jail for warrants.  it doesnt change the fact the cop should not have shot him.  But it does add context to how events unfolded that day.

 

We've seen incidents where a criminal attacks a cop with a knife and the cop shoots him and people argue that since it was only a knife the cop should have chosen some other action.  And usually we say "dont attack a cop, you wont get shot".  Losing your life is a consequence that far outweighs the infraction but it's still a sad fact that there is a very real chance the shooter in this case did not instigate events that ended with the victim's death.  I hesitate to write that because I dont want to cloud the fact that the cop was wrong and murdered this guy. 

 

You have a strange way of seeing the world.  What led to the victim's death was the officer aiming and firing his service pistol.  That was the event that led to the death, nothing else, so yea, the shooter absolutely instigated the event.  Unless you are arguing that the officer was firing a bunch of warning shots and the victim was running in front of them on purpose.  Are you arguing that?

 

 We're all responsible for our actions.

 

If I go to a bar and I get thrown out by the bouncer and I throw a punch at him and he punches me and I suffer brain damage, guess what....that bouncer is in big trouble most of the time.  But the series of events that led to my injury were instigated by me.  it doesnt change his actions.  And it doesnt change mine.

 

All Im saying is, if the victim could do it all over again, he'd make very different choices.  That's an observation.  It doesnt diminish the vile act of the police officer.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

It's not a race thing other than one race is over represented in the absolute **** economic conditions.

 

How do you know this?

 

Would you say that race is absolutely never ever a factor in any American law enforcement encounter?

 

ofcourse race is a factor in many things.  Other things are a factor too.

 

I just watched a video on facebook from Manitoba, cant remember the town.  But it was posted to show how the cops are out of control, man!  And on the video it was a police offer asking some youths for their ID.  The youths fail to comply (youths are taping) claiming there was no reason for them to be stopped or have to show ID.  There had been some incident that the cops were looking for suspects.  The kids blew it out of proportion.  Some people watching the video actually blamed the cop (who was very nice, very patient, calm throughout).  But its easy to see there was nothing wrong done by the officer.  without the video, that story would have circulated and been another racist cop targeting kids for walking down the street (even with the video, some saw it that way).

 

Cameras are a great tool.  Cops should use them because everyone else does.  And the problem with everyone else using them is, they only tell the story from the moment the one filming turns it on.  Cops should wear cameras all the time.

[17to85]

 

 

 

That doesn't mean it's racism though... It's much more likely that it's classism much more than racism. Just so happens that certain demographics are over represented in the poorest class and poverty and questionable behaviours that lead to run ins with police go hand in hand. I don't believe there is as much racism as people think. It's not like it's the middle class black people getting shot by police right?

 

 

I think the "police aren't targeting black people because they're black, but only because they're poor" argument is pretty much horseshit.  The numbers don't add up.

 

Consider how black people fare in non-fatal encounters with law enforcement: according to the 2009 U.S. Census (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0695.pdf) there were about 3.7 million black families under $30,000 income in the USA, and 13.1 million white families under $30,000 income.

If the imprisonment numbers tracked with income, then you'd expect to see roughly 3-4x as many white people in jail as black people, because there are many many more poor white people than poor black people.

However, according to the Prison Policy Initiative (http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/rates.html) blacks and whites each account for about 40% of the prison population.  Blacks are many times more likely to be imprisoned than whites are.

If the American justice system is indeed blind to race, then why are black people being imprisoned at such an elevated rate?

 

Well what are the geographic distributions of these poor people? Are poor white people located in smaller rural settings and poor black people in urban environments? That setting can make a huge difference on whether someone is involved in crime. 

 

I think it's the easy way out to just play the race card. Same thing happens up here when people play the race card with regards to the incarceration levels for natives vs. non-natives. It's not a race thing other than one race is over represented in the absolute **** economic conditions.

 

And I think it's naive (at best) to suggest that race is not an issue.  Prejudice and racism exists.  One can try and find other explanations that might be a bit more palatable than admitting the obvious, but that doesn't change reality,  

 

I think it is far more nuanced than simplifying things to be about just race. 

[WBBFanWest]

 

 

 

 

That doesn't mean it's racism though... It's much more likely that it's classism much more than racism. Just so happens that certain demographics are over represented in the poorest class and poverty and questionable behaviours that lead to run ins with police go hand in hand. I don't believe there is as much racism as people think. It's not like it's the middle class black people getting shot by police right?

 

 

I think the "police aren't targeting black people because they're black, but only because they're poor" argument is pretty much horseshit.  The numbers don't add up.

 

Consider how black people fare in non-fatal encounters with law enforcement: according to the 2009 U.S. Census (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0695.pdf) there were about 3.7 million black families under $30,000 income in the USA, and 13.1 million white families under $30,000 income.

If the imprisonment numbers tracked with income, then you'd expect to see roughly 3-4x as many white people in jail as black people, because there are many many more poor white people than poor black people.

However, according to the Prison Policy Initiative (http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/rates.html) blacks and whites each account for about 40% of the prison population.  Blacks are many times more likely to be imprisoned than whites are.

If the American justice system is indeed blind to race, then why are black people being imprisoned at such an elevated rate?

 

Well what are the geographic distributions of these poor people? Are poor white people located in smaller rural settings and poor black people in urban environments? That setting can make a huge difference on whether someone is involved in crime. 

 

I think it's the easy way out to just play the race card. Same thing happens up here when people play the race card with regards to the incarceration levels for natives vs. non-natives. It's not a race thing other than one race is over represented in the absolute **** economic conditions.

 

And I think it's naive (at best) to suggest that race is not an issue.  Prejudice and racism exists.  One can try and find other explanations that might be a bit more palatable than admitting the obvious, but that doesn't change reality,  

 

I think it is far more nuanced than simplifying things to be about just race. 

 

Of course there can be other things at play in a given situation, but to suggest that racism isn't the main point is just plan silly.  Again, if it's not racism, where are all the unarmed poor white folks being killed by white police?  Poor is poor, underprivileged is underprivileged, but yet that isn't happening.  Also, if this is a poor issue, how come a black man driving a nice car in an affluent neighbourhood is way more likely to be stopped by police than a white guy driving the same car in the same area?  Some call it profiling, but really that's just racism prettied up.  Like the old saying goes: a pig with lipstick is still a pig.

[The Unknown Poster]

White people do get shot.  It just doesnt make too many national news cycles.

 

In fact, black people being shot by black cops arent very newsworthy either.

 

Not arguing the race issue, but to say we dont hear about it so it doesnt happen is silly too. 

[WBBFanWest]

White people do get shot.  It just doesnt make too many national news cycles.

 

In fact, black people being shot by black cops arent very newsworthy either.

 

Not arguing the race issue, but to say we dont hear about it so it doesnt happen is silly too. 

Absolute total bullcrap.  Need to call that what it is.  

 

When police shoot and kill someone it's always news.  It might just be local news at first, but if there is any indication that things are not as they seem, the story gets spread pretty quick.  In these days of cell phone cams, blogs, facebook and the like, stuff like that, you don't keep it quiet for long.  

 

So again, the reason that unarmed white people don't get shot by white police is not the fact that its unreported, it's that it doesn't happen anywhere to the same degree that it does to black folks.  But yea, white folks are dropping like flies and the news people can't be bothered to mention it.  Yea, that's the ticket...  

[The Unknown Poster]

 

White people do get shot.  It just doesnt make too many national news cycles.

 

In fact, black people being shot by black cops arent very newsworthy either.

 

Not arguing the race issue, but to say we dont hear about it so it doesnt happen is silly too. 

Absolute total bullcrap.  Need to call that what it is.  

 

When police shoot and kill someone it's always news.  It might just be local news at first, but if there is any indication that things are not as they seem, the story gets spread pretty quick.  In these days of cell phone cams, blogs, facebook and the like, stuff like that, you don't keep it quiet for long.  

 

So again, the reason that unarmed white people don't get shot by white police is not the fact that its unreported, it's that it doesn't happen anywhere to the same degree that it does to black folks.  But yea, white folks are dropping like flies and the news people can't be bothered to mention it.  Yea, that's the ticket...  

 

i didnt qualify my statement in "degrees".  if you think a white cop shooting a white suspect in Winnipeg would make CNN, you're completely out to lunch.

 

You're twisting the discussion and trying to get people to agree with you.  No one is saying there isnt racism.  But every time a black guy is shot by a white cop, it isnt racism.  Ever walk around in some areas of Winnipeg at certain times, as a white guy and faced racist remarks?  It happens.

 

The original point being, this is a bad shooting by a cop.  Thus far, nothing indicates race played a role.  We'll see if that changes as more info comes out.

[WBBFanWest]

 

 

White people do get shot.  It just doesnt make too many national news cycles.

 

In fact, black people being shot by black cops arent very newsworthy either.

 

Not arguing the race issue, but to say we dont hear about it so it doesnt happen is silly too. 

Absolute total bullcrap.  Need to call that what it is.  

 

When police shoot and kill someone it's always news.  It might just be local news at first, but if there is any indication that things are not as they seem, the story gets spread pretty quick.  In these days of cell phone cams, blogs, facebook and the like, stuff like that, you don't keep it quiet for long.  

 

So again, the reason that unarmed white people don't get shot by white police is not the fact that its unreported, it's that it doesn't happen anywhere to the same degree that it does to black folks.  But yea, white folks are dropping like flies and the news people can't be bothered to mention it.  Yea, that's the ticket...  

 

i didnt qualify my statement in "degrees".  if you think a white cop shooting a white suspect in Winnipeg would make CNN, you're completely out to lunch.

 

You're twisting the discussion and trying to get people to agree with you.  No one is saying there isnt racism.  But every time a black guy is shot by a white cop, it isnt racism.  Ever walk around in some areas of Winnipeg at certain times, as a white guy and faced racist remarks?  It happens.

 

The original point being, this is a bad shooting by a cop.  Thus far, nothing indicates race played a role.  We'll see if that changes as more info comes out.

 

Not going to go round and round on this because you don't seem to want to hear it so let me just say that if a white policeman shot and killed an unarmed white guy in Winnipeg in a similar manner to what happened in South Carolina, it would most certainly get play across Canada, which is the country where it took place.  We call that national coverage.  Would it get play on CNN, I suspect it would.  But seeing that white cops shooting unarmed white suspects doesn't happen all that often, we might have to wait a long time to find out.

[17to85]

 

 

 

White people do get shot.  It just doesnt make too many national news cycles.

 

In fact, black people being shot by black cops arent very newsworthy either.

 

Not arguing the race issue, but to say we dont hear about it so it doesnt happen is silly too. 

Absolute total bullcrap.  Need to call that what it is.  

 

When police shoot and kill someone it's always news.  It might just be local news at first, but if there is any indication that things are not as they seem, the story gets spread pretty quick.  In these days of cell phone cams, blogs, facebook and the like, stuff like that, you don't keep it quiet for long.  

 

So again, the reason that unarmed white people don't get shot by white police is not the fact that its unreported, it's that it doesn't happen anywhere to the same degree that it does to black folks.  But yea, white folks are dropping like flies and the news people can't be bothered to mention it.  Yea, that's the ticket...  

 

i didnt qualify my statement in "degrees".  if you think a white cop shooting a white suspect in Winnipeg would make CNN, you're completely out to lunch.

 

You're twisting the discussion and trying to get people to agree with you.  No one is saying there isnt racism.  But every time a black guy is shot by a white cop, it isnt racism.  Ever walk around in some areas of Winnipeg at certain times, as a white guy and faced racist remarks?  It happens.

 

The original point being, this is a bad shooting by a cop.  Thus far, nothing indicates race played a role.  We'll see if that changes as more info comes out.

 

Not going to go round and round on this because you don't seem to want to hear it so let me just say that if a white policeman shot and killed an unarmed white guy in Winnipeg in a similar manner to what happened in South Carolina, it would most certainly get play across Canada, which is the country where it took place.  We call that national coverage.  Would it get play on CNN, I suspect it would.  But seeing that white cops shooting unarmed white suspects doesn't happen all that often, we might have to wait a long time to find out.

 

If this happened with a white cop shooting an unarmed white guy in south carolina you can guarantee that it wouldn't be getting the attention that this is for one simple reason.... it's a hot button topic right now. 

 

Too many people are too quick to pile on the racism argument. The much simpler explanation is that some cops are jackass dickheads who power trip and bully people because they can and sometimes that winds up with people getting shot. 

[Goalie]

I think it's as simple as the cop has a gun. He's got the power. Sometimes cops are dicks. Not all cops but sometimes I think they do like to power trip and I think this shooting here is more about a power tripping gun happy cop than anything else. Just cuz the cop is white and the victim was black don't mean it's racism. The problem seems to be the media and a portion of the population like to play the race card but reality is sometimes Cops are just power tripping gun happy pricks. I only saw a portion of the video so who really knows what happened b4 the camera was rolling. All I saw was a cop letting off many rounds in to a guy who ran away. Who really knows why he was running. Honestly if I didn't know the video was real, I would have thought it was fake and rigged cuz video I saw, victim ran and cop shot him a bunch of times or missed a bunch and got him good once and dude fell. Honestly first time I watched it I was like sounds like a pop gun really. Sounded odd. Like I said tho. Don't know what happened b4 the video was recording so can't say it's racist just cuz one is white and other is black.

[Mark F]

Johnzo posted:

 

 

The federal Ferguson report was some scary reading;

 

 

 

 

I'm impressed that you read it. Probably the only person here qualified to comment.

[Mark F]

edit

[basslicker]

All I have to say is who cares?

Tonnes of people of all different colors kill people every day in the States.

The glorification of any of these incidents are pure garbage.

Comment of the week brother.  All these shootings are only something because of the sensationalism.  It keeps people nicely occupied.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

All I have to say is who cares?

Tonnes of people of all different colors kill people every day in the States.

The glorification of any of these incidents are pure garbage.

Comment of the week brother.  All these shootings are only something because of the sensationalism.  It keeps people nicely occupied.

 

I think case in particular is very newsworthy.  Racially motivated or not, a police offier that so callously guns down a victim and then immediately plants evidence...and its all caught on tape?  Not only that but the tape doesnt surface for several days allowing the cops to commit to their BS story?  Thats newsworthy.

 

If you've ever been railroaded by cops or even had a negative experience, you understand why stories like this are important.  For me, i've made this comment a lot to friends, some of whom are cops: the terrible few ruin it for the good cops but really, shouldnt they want to clean up their own?

[Goalie]

It's not really that newsworthy since it happens every day really.. in my opinion, it's irrelevant that it was a cop shooting a black guy... it could have been a white guy shooting a white guy, a black guy shooting a black guy.. it's all the same really. The only difference really is it was a police officer but those who say it happens everyday, they are right. It does, it just doesn't always involve police officers. 

[WBBFanWest]

It's not really that newsworthy since it happens every day really.. in my opinion, it's irrelevant that it was a cop shooting a black guy... it could have been a white guy shooting a white guy, a black guy shooting a black guy.. it's all the same really. The only difference really is it was a police officer but those who say it happens everyday, they are right. It does, it just doesn't always involve police officers. 

The rest of the world seems to thoroughly disagree with you.  So do I. 

[johnzo]

Whenever a cop kills someone, there has to be scrutiny. 

 

These are taxpayer-funded killings and so taxpayers bear responsibility for ensuring that lethal force is used only when absolutely necessary.

[StevetheClub]

 

That doesn't mean it's racism though... It's much more likely that it's classism much more than racism. Just so happens that certain demographics are over represented in the poorest class and poverty and questionable behaviours that lead to run ins with police go hand in hand. I don't believe there is as much racism as people think. It's not like it's the middle class black people getting shot by police right?

 

 

I think the "police aren't targeting black people because they're black, but only because they're poor" argument is pretty much horseshit.  The numbers don't add up. Consider how black people fare in non-fatal encounters with law enforcement:

 

According to the 2009 U.S. Census (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0695.pdf) there were about 3.7 million black families under $30,000 income in the USA, and 13.1 million white families under $30,000 income.

If the imprisonment numbers tracked with income, then you'd expect to see roughly 3-4x as many white people in jail as black people, because there are 3-4x more poor white people than poor black people.

However, according to the Prison Policy Initiative (http://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/rates.html) blacks and whites each account for about 40% of the prison population.  Blacks are many times more likely to be imprisoned than whites are.

If the American justice system is indeed blind to race, then why are black people being imprisoned at such an elevated rate?

 

 

It seems people are getting confused with the difference between individual and systemic racism. I have no idea if individual racism was at play in this murder or not but I have little doubt that systemic racism was, for reasons that have already been better articulated by others.

 

Saying it was racist because it was a white cop who shot a black man is oversimplifying it just as much as saying it wasn't because it was a cop who shot another law-breaking citizen without considering race, and both ignore the larger point of a broken system that teaches human beings how to treat one another.

[johnzo]

I think it is far more nuanced than simplifying things to be about just race. 

 

I agree with you on this! I don't mean to say that race is the only factor in the outcomes of cop - citizen encounters. For instance, I would like to see a study comparing how cops who are military veterans escalate situations vs. how cops who haven't ever seen combat do so.

 

But based just on imprisonment numbers, race does appear to have some influence on the outcomes when people face the American justice system. I wouldn't say it is a certainty but I think it's naive to dismiss it.

[Brandon]

Whenever a cop kills someone, there has to be scrutiny.

These are taxpayer-funded killings and so taxpayers bear responsibility for ensuring that lethal force is used only when absolutely necessary.

So when the Army kills tonnes of innocent people its OK because America F$$$ Ya?

So when taxpayers pay for criminals in jail and/or pay for social assistance for people who commit murder those don't matter because why?