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[The Unknown Poster]

I think it would be reasonable to discuss spoilers now since the film is out.  But as a warning for those that havent seen it, I wont spoil anything yet.  (Or if I do, Ill use the spiler tag)

I liked Justice League.  Its sort of hard because I think I like it more than it deserves.  If I didnt know the back story of Snyder being replaced by Whedon, I wouldn't say I could tell but knowing it, you can tell.  There were tonal shifts and shoe horned scenes and it was uneven throughout.

The story telling aspects suffered from what I disliked about the DC films from Day One - that they just jumped right to the whole group.  So unlike Marvel where we got the stand alone films first and got to know the characters, we had to be introduced to Aquaman, Flash, Cyborg.  And even then, once introduced, we had to see the relationships develop because we didnt know any of them.  Other than Bruce and Diana, which didnt get that much in BvS, none of these characters knew each other.

I still think Gal Gadot is the star of the DC franchise.  They had a minor subplot about her being a leader (and references to Steve Trevor from the Wonder Woman film, so its worth seeing if you didnt see it) and it sort of spoke to the actual film in that the actor (Gadot) is better and more interesting than Affleck and the character (WW) is more likeable and "cheerable" than Batman (and Batman  is my all time favorite superhero).

Ezra Miller as The Flash almost steals the show.  He's a very likeable actor which is good because there were times when I thought the forced humor could be a bit annoying.  There was one good scene between Batman and Flash where the elder hero gives him some very basic advice about how to rise to the occasion and it was a great scene that was not really a focus.  But could have meant something if you knew about Robin (which no one does because they've never discussed it).  In fact, Batman recruiting Flash needs to be examined through that lens.  Because if we get a Nightwing film where a brooding Batman laments the death of the second Robin, it sort of needs reconciling with why he didnt seem to care about Flash.

But thats the problem with these team up films.  Not enough time.

Steppenwolf was well done in CGI and voice acting (great actor portrayed him).  But one issue DC has is that the other-dimensional stuff isnt very interesting and yet with heroes as powerful as these ones, what earth-bound threat could really hurt them?  Whereas in Marvel, you had smaller stories that built up to something so crazy it required all the heroes join forces.  And none of them, save for maybe Thor, is as powerful as DC's.

That also hurt Batman in another sort of plot that deserved more.  The fact he's the only one who has no powers.  It would have been easy for him to be the one that is the greatest of humanity but they save that idea for the alien Superman so Batman sort of gets a lame Tony Stark rip off without any of the depth or likeability to the character.  They hinted at him liking Diana.  But went nowhere with it.  They hinted at Flash having a crush on her as well, but went no where with it.

There wasnt enough time to slow down and have character moments.  Whereas in the Avengers, they DID do that.  And they COULD because we already knew the characters and also, Avengers had a more linear plot.  In Justice League they had to recruit the heroes, develop the relationships, explain back stories, explain Steppenwolf and then of course ...

Spoiler

bring back Superman from the dead

...Which didnt really resonate for me.  It felt too easy and cheap.  However, I will say that

Spoiler

as noted by someone else, Cavill seemed much better in this film.  He seemed much more the hopeful Superman.  The "bad guy" turn when he is first revived is interesting and I enjoyed seeing Wonder Woman toe to toe with him.  But it was also gimmicky.  Now, a bad Superman as the actual plot where Batman has to assemble a team to take him down sounds far more interesting.  But now they cant do it.  And wasnt that the foreshadow in BvS when Batman has his "vision" and was visited by Flash from the Future???  Is that just dropped now?

So it sounds like I didnt like it.  But I did.  And here's why.  The cast is really good.  As much as I like Batman and I like Affleck, he was the weak link to me.  Affleck CAN act but seemed uninterested in doing so here or didnt have the material.  He was just ok.  Gal Gadot is really a revelation in every way.  She's amazing.  Mamoa as Aquaman was great but his character was under-served by the land-based plot so he seemed sort of tacked on.  But he had some good lines.  He's the Thor of DC.  Ezra, a great Flash and you root for him as a character.  I'd heard Cyborg was uninteresting but I didnt feel that way.  I liked the actor and the portrayal.  Unfortunately, he's sort of a Deus Ex Machina type where I think he'd have benefited more from being a kid with some implants and telling that story.  Again, its like they had to skip three films worth of development because they HAD to have the team together.

There was also  a brief appearance of...

Spoiler

Green Lantern in flash back scenes.  None of the "current" versions though but it hints at their obvious plans to involve GL in the future

Without knowing what Whedon added, it would seem most of the humor and character charm came from him (at least it seemed tonally different from much of the main plot).  And thats really the key. They cast this film very well and the team is charming (minus Batman who is portrayed and stated on screen as an *******).  I think Im more interested in seeing stand alones for Aquaman and Flash than I am a JLA sequel, to be honest.  And ofcourse a WW sequel.  She's really the heart of these films now and should be written that way on screen as well.

There you have it.

[The Unknown Poster]

Oh and one more thing, regarding the TWO extra scenes post credits:

The first one, which was for fun was

Spoiler

Flash and Superman racing

and the second one which was the set up for future films involved

Spoiler

The absolutely dreadful Lex Luthor (horribly miscast) meeting with Deathstroke about assembling their own team.  Amazing that they kept secret that Joe Manganiello scene secret (and explains the "concept video" that floated around awhile back)

 

[Logan007]

Other, then a few minor details, I pretty much agree with everything TUP said.

 

I do hope they release an ultimate or directors cut.

[The Unknown Poster]

From Latino Review:

Quote

In first place with $94 million is Justice League ($2 million lower than initially estimated). While this would be considered a good opening by normal standards, Justice League is not your standard film. Simply put, this is the Avengers of the DCEU, and as such, you know Warner Bros. was looking at at least match (if not, exceed), Batman v Superman’s $166 million opening. Instead, we ended up with a figure that was a little more than half that number. Given that the film could have cost as much as $300 million, plus an extra $100 to $200 million in advertising, the film could very well need big numbers to break even. As such, the $96 million domestically isn’t a great harbinger of things to come. We’ll be keeping an eye on this one as things develop.

Another big mistake they made was the aged Batman.  Because what do they do now?  They have good things like Wonder Woman and I think Flash and Aquaman can work as well.  But the through-line of the extended universe is Batman and Superman.  Cavill is signed for only one more film.  Affleck is already wavering and seems to have trouble getting into shape (he looked a bit paunchy in JLA).

So do you just replace Affleck?  Do you go younger and if so, why did you go older in the first place?

Edited November 20, 2017 by The Unknown Poster

[Brandon]

I may be in the minority since I have very little opportunity to get out and see movies in the theatres these days....  but could it be that people are tired of super hero movies and that market has been overly saturated the last 5 or so years?  

[Logan007]

10 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

From Latino Review:

Another big mistake they made was the aged Batman.  Because what do they do now?  They have good things like Wonder Woman and I think Flash and Aquaman can work as well.  But the through-line of the extended universe is Batman and Superman.  Cavill is signed for only one more film.  Affleck is already wavering and seems to have trouble getting into shape (he looked a bit paunchy in JLA).

So do you just replace Affleck?  Do you go younger and if so, why did you go older in the first place?

Because Zach Snyder

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, Brandon said:

I may be in the minority since I have very little opportunity to get out and see movies in the theatres these days....  but could it be that people are tired of super hero movies and that market has been overly saturated the last 5 or so years?  

Thor 3 is killing it right now.  I think part of it is lack of enthusiasm for DC.  I think people are less likely to go into it blindly than for a Marvel film.   But ultimately, they have a chance to be successful by making good movies and they've stumbled so far.

[Logan007]

1 minute ago, Brandon said:

I may be in the minority since I have very little opportunity to get out and see movies in the theatres these days....  but could it be that people are tired of super hero movies and that market has been overly saturated the last 5 or so years?  

I doubt it.  Marvel movies keep bringing in the dough.

[The Unknown Poster]

2 minutes ago, Logan007 said:

Because Zach Snyder

Yeah...and I think no one wanted to do "Robin".  They like the idea of Batman having a Robin and all the psychological issues that come along with it.  And they like the idea of **** Grayson and the idea of his replacement being brutally murdered and Batman living with the guilt.  But actually doing the Robin story, I dont think anyone wanted to.  So they skipped it.

Edited November 20, 2017 by The Unknown Poster

[Noeller]

Re: Burnout....here's a thought, take it for what it's worth (not much): 

As much as these comic book movies are made for the nerds who've been there for years, there's a chunk of the movie going public who're like me.....never read comics, totally new to the entire universe thing. Marvel got me first.....Iron Man was the first one outta the gate, and it was awesome, and I was hooked. So then I gotta watch every GD one that comes after it, so I stay in the loop. I've got a lot of time invested in this stupid GD MCU. I am absolutely not going to spend even more time with DC....it's more than enough effort to keep up with Marvel.

So, I'm wondering how many others are like me.....already invested in Marvel, 'cause they got us first, and not going to bother with DC. Maybe a part of it?

Also occams razor: DC movies suck, Marvel movies are really good.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Noeller

[The Unknown Poster]

@Noeller I think thats why I am so adamant about DC's vision being wrong.  Why "catch up" to Marvel when you really cant?  There has already been talk of a potential superhero burnout so if anyone things thats a real possibility, DC should be wanting to start out simpler just as Marvel is beginning to wane a bit.  make it easy for all the fans Marvel created (and obviously they arent JUST comic fans since these movies have done killer business) to try DC.  they've created too large a mythology too fast.  I think thats why WW did well, among other things, it was a simpler story with a simpler character.

I really think as Marvel transitions away from some of their core characters and actors, DC could have been attracting people that miss the traditional heroes and the smaller stories.  Instead, DC has come on with fantasy and massive mythology and convoluted stories.  And now you might lose Batman & Superman after one more movie?  WTF.  Why werent they locked up to ten picture options?  DC just had no plan. Even when they say they have a plan, they dont have a plan.

[Wideleft]

It's that time of year when the "real" movies come out.  Some may even call them films.  Can not wait to see this one (red band trailer makes it even more appetizing).  

 

[Noeller]

^^ I'd heard about that, but wasn't sure what it was....Frances McDormand seems solid as always......looks good.

[Wideleft]

Same writer/director as Seven Psychopaths, which is one of my favorite movies of the last 10 years.

[Brandon]

2 hours ago, Noeller said:

So, I'm wondering how many others are like me.....already invested in Marvel, 'cause they got us first, and not going to bother with DC. Maybe a part of it?

 

I was thinking the exact same thing,   I can't be bothered to learn and follow the back stories of dozens of random comic book characters.     

[Noeller]

2 minutes ago, Brandon said:

I was thinking the exact same thing,   I can't be bothered to learn and follow the back stories of dozens of random comic book characters.     

I'm already embarrassed how invested I've become in this stupid MCU.........Christ. 

[tacklewasher]

14 hours ago, Brandon said:

I was thinking the exact same thing,   I can't be bothered to learn and follow the back stories of dozens of random comic book characters.     

I"m kinda halfway. Never read "comics" but have watched all the "cartoons" of both. The DC cartoons don't suck anywhere near as bad as the movies, but I don't care about Cyborg. Why did they use him over GL?

For me, I was ready to get into the DC world as well as MCU, but the movies have just been bad. SS was terrible and about characters I didn't know, except Quinn. BVS was horrid and had no reason behind it. At least Civil War had a reason for Stark to fight Rogers.

Still haven't seen JL, but I will.

[17to85]

21 hours ago, Noeller said:

Re: Burnout....here's a thought, take it for what it's worth (not much): 

As much as these comic book movies are made for the nerds who've been there for years, there's a chunk of the movie going public who're like me.....never read comics, totally new to the entire universe thing. Marvel got me first.....Iron Man was the first one outta the gate, and it was awesome, and I was hooked. So then I gotta watch every GD one that comes after it, so I stay in the loop. I've got a lot of time invested in this stupid GD MCU. I am absolutely not going to spend even more time with DC....it's more than enough effort to keep up with Marvel.

So, I'm wondering how many others are like me.....already invested in Marvel, 'cause they got us first, and not going to bother with DC. Maybe a part of it?

Also occams razor: DC movies suck, Marvel movies are really good.

What is really comes down to is this: Iron Man was a good movie, Robert Downey Jr. charmed the pants off movie goers in the role and people wanted more.  Then they gave us some entertaining movies with Thor and Captain American, both well cast with likeable leads and people wanted more. 

No one liked Man of Steel nor did they feel strongly about the lead. Batman vs. Superman was an even bigger mess, people just don't care about that franchise, and why are they going to get excited about a team up movie when the only previously introduced character that anyone seemed to like was Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman? They see dollar signs but have no idea how to actually get there. 

[The Unknown Poster]

They sort of stumbled across Wonder Woman as a success I think.  Its a shame they put their eggs in the Justice League basket because WW could have been the real lens through which we get to know everyone and slowly build to the team up film. 

A Legion of Doom films has a better chance to be successful because it could be more grounded.  But then you need Joker and I wasnt buying Leto's portrayal.

[SPuDS]

On 11/20/2017 at 10:08 AM, The Unknown Poster said:

Oh and one more thing, regarding the TWO extra scenes post credits:

The first one, which was for fun was

  Reveal hidden contents

Flash and Superman racing

and the second one which was the set up for future films involved

  Reveal hidden contents

The absolutely dreadful Lex Luthor (horribly miscast) meeting with Deathstroke about assembling their own team.  Amazing that they kept secret that Joe Manganiello scene secret (and explains the "concept video" that floated around awhile back)

 

I thought DC was adamant that they were not going to do the post movie cut scenes..

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, SPuDS said:

I thought DC was adamant that they were not going to do the post movie cut scenes..

The way I read it, the final post credit scene (the one that directly impacts future films) was from Snyder.  The mid-credit scene which is more fun and has no bearing on future films, was added by Whedon.  

I read a list today of which scenes belonged to which guy.  And man, without Whedon, this film likely would have been a snoozefest.  Virtually all the character and heart seems to have come from Josh. 

And here's something I just thought about, if Nightwing exists in this Universe, where the heck was he?

[SPuDS]

36 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

The way I read it, the final post credit scene (the one that directly impacts future films) was from Snyder.  The mid-credit scene which is more fun and has no bearing on future films, was added by Whedon.  

I read a list today of which scenes belonged to which guy.  And man, without Whedon, this film likely would have been a snoozefest.  Virtually all the character and heart seems to have come from Josh. 

And here's something I just thought about, if Nightwing exists in this Universe, where the heck was he?

Yea I can't remember who said it but I thought it was Whedon.. it was a director before JL came out.. said they wouldn't wanna do that because thats a"Marvel" thing and didn't want their fans to have to wait around after the movies..

 

just funny they are now following suit.  Don't blame em, leaves the audience wanting more and/or getting a last chuckle.

 

as for nightwing, that is an excellent question.  I do recall hearing a rumoured movie for him.

Edited November 21, 2017 by SPuDS

[17to85]

2 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

They sort of stumbled across Wonder Woman as a success I think.  Its a shame they put their eggs in the Justice League basket because WW could have been the real lens through which we get to know everyone and slowly build to the team up film. 

A Legion of Doom films has a better chance to be successful because it could be more grounded.  But then you need Joker and I wasnt buying Leto's portrayal.

If they were really serious they would have made wonder woman 2 and used that as a vehicle to introduce some of the new faces for justice league. Not even as a main plot point either, just a sidebar. DC and Warner brothers wants it all without the work, and so because of that I hope they fail.

[Logan007]

1 hour ago, The Unknown Poster said:

The way I read it, the final post credit scene (the one that directly impacts future films) was from Snyder.  The mid-credit scene which is more fun and has no bearing on future films, was added by Whedon.  

I read a list today of which scenes belonged to which guy.  And man, without Whedon, this film likely would have been a snoozefest.  Virtually all the character and heart seems to have come from Josh. 

And here's something I just thought about, if Nightwing exists in this Universe, where the heck was he?

Lots of bad guys in the world.  He may have been off doing something else.  Something secretive for Bruce.  Not having powers, he wouldn't have been too useful.

[basslicker]

Hollywood still makes movies?   Huh, who knew?

 

Seriously though, not much to look forward to in terms of blockbusters.  I loved comic book movies and such, but now, I'm pretty much done.  Haven't even seen the new Spiderman or Thor or JLA.  Everything just looks so blah and done before.  The 'expanded universes' now suffer the same fate as comic books themselves.......too many, too often.

I've been saying it for almost a year, Logan was the end for me.  It was so amazing and so well done, it transcended the 'comic book movie.'  None could be better so why bother?  "Brutal with a heart." That's how I describe it.