Sign Willy!

[gbill2004]

GBill... It's a 150K raise, not $50K. I'd give him a $50K raise to sign him to an extension and I'm sure Walters would too. It's not just amount, it's also about how much is up front money, how much is base and how much is bonuses.

Mike... You and I both know that Marve doesn't have a hope of making the NFL next year unless he plays a significant amount of time this year AND plays lights out football. IF those two things were to happen, we wouldn't want to pay Willy 400K to sit on the bench AND we'd want to lock down Marve, not Willy. BTW:Brohm's the #2 guy so he'd have to fail before Marve got playing time too.

mbrg.... We aren't talking about last year so Max Hall doesn't have anything to do with this thread. We are talking about this year and we are all hoping (but don't know) that Willy will be better than he was last year. This years Willy isn't a known upgrade over last years Willy.

Are folks really worried that if we don't sign Willy to a big contract this year, some other team will want to pay him even more next year and we will lose him or have to pay him even more? Seems to me like a lot of very good things for Willy will have line up to make that scenario work out for him.

I was referring to $350k vs $400k.

[Mr Dee]

Why on earth would we snub our potential future starting QB and hope it will all "work out next year"?

Really?

You want to walk that balance beam of futility because you want him to be proven instead of believing he will be.

If they kept a stat for a team's poor QB rating based on the QBs they had over the years, we be in last place by a mile.

I don't want chance going back there again. Pay him a good deal and move on.

I would find it hard to believe that when they traded for Willy, they didn't have a good idea what the sliding pay scale would be for him...starting this year. They knew they would have to up the ante and I'd be very surprised if all figures weren't bandied about...including FA.

[Adrenaline_x]

Why on earth would we snub our potential future starting QB and hope it will all "work out next year"?

Really?

You want to walk that balance beam of futility because you want him to be proven instead of believing he will be.

If they kept a stat for a team's poor QB rating based on the QBs they had over the years, we be in last place by a mile.

I don't want chance going back there again. Pay him a good deal and move on.

I would find it hard to believe that when they traded for Willy, they didn't have a good idea what the sliding pay scale would be for him...starting this year. They knew they would have to up the ante and I'd be very surprised if all figures weren't bandied about...including FA.

So far there is only some evidence that willy is better then any QB we've had here since 2008. We haven't won more then 7 games since 2008(I think). Soooo. I dunno. Over paying for an average Qb so that we don't possibly lose him but might have to cut if his salary is too high if he is only and average qb ( which is still better then we've had).

Give him boost in base pay and then back fill with incentives. If meeting completion %, TDs,int, yard,wins, goals he gets a bonus and maxes out at 400-500k great. Little risk and great rewards. Less reward for willy, but if he believes he is an elite qb and will have a great couple of years then it's a win for him.

You don't pay 120k for a crown Victoria hoping or believing it's going to transform into a jaguar becuase u upgrade the rims, tires and intake (ol, receivers, coaching)

[Mr Dee]

 

So far there is only some evidence that willy is better then any QB we've had here since 2008. We haven't won more then 7 games since 2008(I think). Soooo. I dunno. Over paying for an average Qb so that we don't possibly lose him but might have to cut if his salary is too high if he is only and average qb ( which is still better then we've had).

 

Somebody has to make the decision that Willy is our man going forward. McManus, O'Shea, and Walters believe he is. 

The key words you've stated is over paying. Who says we will?

Give him boost in base pay and then back fill with incentives. If meeting completion %, TDs,int, yard,wins, goals he gets a bonus and maxes out at 400-500k great. Little risk and great rewards. Less reward for willy, but if he believes he is an elite qb and will have a great couple of years then it's a win for him.

I did say pay him a good deal. It still has to suit all parties.

You don't pay 120k for a crown Victoria hoping or believing it's going to transform into a jaguar becuase u upgrade the rims, tires and intake (ol, receivers, coaching)

 

 

I don't like the car analogy but I have seen very reliable cars (like Crown Vics) outlast the 'much better' Jaguars…at a much lower price..with better care and 'tuning'.

 

 

[Floyd]

 

Why on earth would we snub our potential future starting QB and hope it will all "work out next year"?

Really?

You want to walk that balance beam of futility because you want him to be proven instead of believing he will be.

If they kept a stat for a team's poor QB rating based on the QBs they had over the years, we be in last place by a mile.

I don't want chance going back there again. Pay him a good deal and move on.

I would find it hard to believe that when they traded for Willy, they didn't have a good idea what the sliding pay scale would be for him...starting this year. They knew they would have to up the ante and I'd be very surprised if all figures weren't bandied about...including FA.

So far there is only some evidence that willy is better then any QB we've had here since 2008. We haven't won more then 7 games since 2008(I think). Soooo. I dunno. Over paying for an average Qb so that we don't possibly lose him but might have to cut if his salary is too high if he is only and average qb ( which is still better then we've had).

Give him boost in base pay and then back fill with incentives. If meeting completion %, TDs,int, yard,wins, goals he gets a bonus and maxes out at 400-500k great. Little risk and great rewards. Less reward for willy, but if he believes he is an elite qb and will have a great couple of years then it's a win for him.

You don't pay 120k for a crown Victoria hoping or believing it's going to transform into a jaguar becuase u upgrade the rims, tires and intake (ol, receivers, coaching)

 

 

Don't forget the spoiler.

[comedygeek]

 

Why on earth would we snub our potential future starting QB and hope it will all "work out next year"?

Really?

You want to walk that balance beam of futility because you want him to be proven instead of believing he will be.

If they kept a stat for a team's poor QB rating based on the QBs they had over the years, we be in last place by a mile.

I don't want chance going back there again. Pay him a good deal and move on.

I would find it hard to believe that when they traded for Willy, they didn't have a good idea what the sliding pay scale would be for him...starting this year. They knew they would have to up the ante and I'd be very surprised if all figures weren't bandied about...including FA.

So far there is only some evidence that willy is better then any QB we've had here since 2008. We haven't won more then 7 games since 2008(I think). Soooo. I dunno. Over paying for an average Qb so that we don't possibly lose him but might have to cut if his salary is too high if he is only and average qb ( which is still better then we've had).

Give him boost in base pay and then back fill with incentives. If meeting completion %, TDs,int, yard,wins, goals he gets a bonus and maxes out at 400-500k great. Little risk and great rewards. Less reward for willy, but if he believes he is an elite qb and will have a great couple of years then it's a win for him.

You don't pay 120k for a crown Victoria hoping or believing it's going to transform into a jaguar becuase u upgrade the rims, tires and intake (ol, receivers, coaching)

 

 

2011 - 10 wins and a Grey Cup appearance.

[mbrg]

 

 

If Willy gets hurt early in the year, would you rather he was making 400K or 250K?  (Not sure he can even make that if he can't make his bonuses).

 

That's just a silly game to play.  If we played that game 2 months ago, why sign Stanley Bryant, cause he might get hurt.  Go with the smart money, start Taormina and save 80 grand.

 

What a silly answer.  Bryant is a known upgrade over January and we sorely needed O line upgrades.  Well worth the money especially over a guy who shouldn't be starting in the first place.  Willy's a sophomore starter who was great for the first 5 games then looked like a rookie for the rest of the season.  If he was one of the top 2 QB's in the league, we'd not be having this discussion.  BTW:  The point I was trying to make, which went over your head, is that we have a lot more on the line if we give Willy his 150K raise, 100K of it as a signing bonus than we do if we simply wait and let him earn his raise. 

 

 

No, we'd have nothing more on the line than the $150k.

 

I have yet to argue for or against giving Willy a big raise, by the way, and agree with about 1/2 the points you've made.  I have simply pointed out that there is no big negative consequence to doing it, something you keep claiming.

 

What, mid season Calgary cuts Mitchell AND Toronto cuts Ray AND a free agent bidding war ensues AND Walters decides we must have both?  But can't win it because of the $150k?  Well, if that happens, I'll buy you a beer, and graciously admit I didn't see it coming.

 

This franchise and fanbase dreams of being in a position where we have a top tier QB.  The ones who get paid the big bucks.  Is Willy among those guys now?  I agree with you, absolutely not.  Does he "deserve" to make the same coin as them based on what he's achieved so far?  I agree with you (if using the standards of social justice), he does not.  Is there a reasonable chance of us not getting the same "money's worth" from Willy as Toronto will get from Ray?  Indeed there is.

 

But there is still no great negative consequence to doing it.  As far as I can tell going thru all reasonable scenarios, the biggest hypothetical negative is that money could have been put towards one of two things - rolling a portion of 2016 payroll onto the 2015 books thru contract extensions, and paying down stadium debt.

 

150k, on the other hand, is approximately the amount of increased revenue thru beer sales alone from increased attendance that Willy could bring into Bomber coffers if he does the only thing that matters to casual fans - winning.  In other words, it's a pretty insignificant amount to spend given what the real stakes are.  I find it endlessly amusing that the people who undoubtedly advocate "spending to the cap", or even "spend over the cap and pay the fine" in pursuit of a winner turn into armchair accountants, wringing their hands at the thought of giving a player a raise that he hasn't "earned".

 

Giving out raises based on potential and projecting forward is just one of many realities of pro sports that all GMs face every year.  If you want to take a run at commissioner and revamp the model to one where salaries are determined only after a season is over and we know what a player was really worth, I might vote for you.

 

The potential negative consequences of not signing him now seem much more impactful to the Bombers than the possibility that Willy might not provide a ROI that you consider proper value.

 

Two related points:

- This isn't 2004, when people were freaking out because MOP Khari Jones is making over $300,000 per season; the pay scale has moved dramatically since then and these are not crazy numbers being thrown around.

- While I used $150k just because that was the number some people want to throw around, I really doubt that the Bombers and Willy have ever been more than 50k apart in spirit.  Sure, both camps will have started out further apart than that, but as always during a negotiation, that's just to allow space to move and let the other party know that they have moved.  And yes, I know the $150k is difference between no extension at all vs giving him everything he wants, but if you are advocating not even trying to extend him, then I'd say you're way way way out to lunch.

[Mike]

I find it endlessly amusing that the people who undoubtedly advocate "spending to the cap", or even "spend over the cap and pay the fine" in pursuit of a winner turn into armchair accountants, wringing their hands at the thought of giving a player a raise that he hasn't "earned".

 

This.

 

x1000

[TBURGESS]

I'm a spend to the cap and maybe a bit over if something terrible happens type of guy.  No doubt in my mind that's the right way to go.  That being said, I'm not a give em money they haven't earned type of guy or a pay them more than our competition pays for similar/better players type of guy and that's what this discussion is all about IMHO. 

 

Overpaying players is no way to get good value for your money and it means you have to to with cheaper players at other positions. 150K could mean signing 6 players at 25K upgrades.  By that I mean 6 players who get 25K more than the league average for their position or 6 top tier players.  It means being able to outbid other teams for the top players when they come available.  Not just in FA, but also at NFL cut time.

 

Beer revenue is a red herring.  It will go up when we win, down when we lose.  It's not about Willy getting a raise.  It's about the wins.

 

If Willy was a top tier QB, then sure, he'd be worth the extra bucks even though it means scrimping elsewhere because QB is the most important position on the field.

 

The only potential downside to not extending Willy now is that we might have to pay him more next year if he has a good to great year.  In return, we'd get great value for our money this year and we'd save the 150K that we could use towards his next contract if we have to.

[Mike]

The only potential downside to not extending Willy now is that we might have to pay him more next year if he has a good to great year.  In return, we'd get great value for our money this year and we'd save the 150K that we could use towards his next contract if we have to.

 

... are we really going to act like the potential downside of him signing elsewhere doesn't exist?

[Mr Dee]

  In return, we'd get great value for our money this year and we'd save the 150K that we could use towards his next contract if we have to.

 

This, right here, is the old Winnipeg thinking…all the way, and should be expunged from our thinking.

[Judd]

Let willy play with a chip on his shoulder this year and try earn his big contract. We're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit, just gotta pump the breaks. A deal will get done within a month after the season ends if drew plays like a # 1 QB. The last thing we want to see is a three year extension and willy plays like he did the second half of last year.

[Jpan85]

I am sure this is being dealt in a sane and rational way by both sides unlike it is here.

[mbrg]

 

The only potential downside to not extending Willy now is that we might have to pay him more next year if he has a good to great year.  In return, we'd get great value for our money this year and we'd save the 150K that we could use towards his next contract if we have to.

 

... are we really going to act like the potential downside of him signing elsewhere doesn't exist?

 

 

I thought I threw him a couple of life preservers, yet he insists on drowning.

 

Que sera sera I suppose.

[sweep the leg]

The last thing we want to see is a three year extension and willy plays like he did the second half of last year.

Disagree. The last thing we want to see is Willy leave for another team and we're back to searching for a qb.

[TBURGESS]

 

The only potential downside to not extending Willy now is that we might have to pay him more next year if he has a good to great year.  In return, we'd get great value for our money this year and we'd save the 150K that we could use towards his next contract if we have to.

 

... are we really going to act like the potential downside of him signing elsewhere doesn't exist?

 

The only way that happens is if we don't re-sign him before he goes to Free Agency AND we don't match or beat other teams offers (Assuming there are any).  I don't expect either of those things to happen if we still want him at the end of this season.

 

We don't NEED to extend Willy right now.  He's under contract and he's not going anywhere this year.  Giving him more money right now isn't going to change the way he plays this year.  This years play will tell us and the other teams in the league if he's ready for the big contract or not.

[Atomic]

The only potential downside to not extending Willy now is that we might have to pay him more next year if he has a good to great year. In return, we'd get great value for our money this year and we'd save the 150K that we could use towards his next contract if we have to.

... are we really going to act like the potential downside of him signing elsewhere doesn't exist?

When's the last time a starting QB in the CFL left via free agency? I wouldn't be too worried.

[Judd]

 

The last thing we want to see is a three year extension and willy plays like he did the second half of last year.

Disagree. The last thing we want to see is Willy leave for another team and we're back to searching for a qb.

 

Not if he plays in 2016 like he did for the last half of 2015 you don't.

[Mr Dee]

…………Shortsightedness………….it's a terrible affliction.

[Rich]

The only potential downside to not extending Willy now is that we might have to pay him more next year if he has a good to great year. In return, we'd get great value for our money this year and we'd save the 150K that we could use towards his next contract if we have to.

... are we really going to act like the potential downside of him signing elsewhere doesn't exist?

When's the last time a starting QB in the CFL left via free agency? I wouldn't be too worried.

When is the last time a team, who wanted to keep their starting QB play out the final year of their contract?

There is a reason it doesn't happen

[Floyd]

If he signs an incentive-laden contract now, great... if not, wait until the off-season...  if he leaves, we'll sign Ricky Ray.

[SPuDS]

The only potential downside to not extending Willy now is that we might have to pay him more next year if he has a good to great year. In return, we'd get great value for our money this year and we'd save the 150K that we could use towards his next contract if we have to.

... are we really going to act like the potential downside of him signing elsewhere doesn't exist?

When's the last time a starting QB in the CFL left via free agency? I wouldn't be too worried.

Reilly, crompton. Willy, Burris and didn't pierce come to us in FA?

[Rich]

Most of those weren't starters when they left their team. They were the backup.

As for Pierce and Burris, the team decided to move. I said where the team wanted to keep them

[gbill2004]

Most of those weren't starters when they left their team. They were the backup.

As for Pierce and Burris, the team decided to move. I said where the team wanted to keep them

That's a good point but I'm still not comfortable taking the risk.

[SPuDS]

Most of those weren't starters when they left their team. They were the backup.

As for Pierce and Burris, the team decided to move. I said where the team wanted to keep them

They were leaving with expectations (and in every case they did) of being a starter.. So, still a starter moving in FA..

But yes I will aquisece and say legit, stable, starters moving via FA simply for a cash grab are extremely rare and if we are that worried about it.. We are worrying for nothing. That being said, IF willy is unsigned and IF the other starters stunk it up all season and willy lights it up.. We could potentially get in a bidding war..