Frolik Conundrum

[Atomic]

 

Burmi as a replacement for Frolik is a joke.  Not even close to the same caliber of player.

And yet one wants $5 million and one could probably be had for $1.5-ish.  Burmi is a very good possession player.  I'd be comfortable with him at 3RW if the other option is over-paying Frolik to play 3RW and get paid like a 2RW.

 

 

I prefer the combination that gives us the better team.  If it all fits under the salary cap, who cares if Frolik is overpaid by a million/year.

[Goalie]

If you give Frolik 5 what do u give Ladd buff Scheifs Lowry trouba etc. Frolik should be paid more than little?

[Rich]

 

 

Burmi as a replacement for Frolik is a joke.  Not even close to the same caliber of player.

And yet one wants $5 million and one could probably be had for $1.5-ish.  Burmi is a very good possession player.  I'd be comfortable with him at 3RW if the other option is over-paying Frolik to play 3RW and get paid like a 2RW.

 

 

I prefer the combination that gives us the better team.  If it all fits under the salary cap, who cares if Frolik is overpaid by a million/year.

 

 

If you do that for every player, you've suddenly used up a 1/3 of your cap.

 

Term matters just as much as that dollar value   But Frolik is going to want term.

[Atomic]

If you give Frolik 5 what do u give Ladd buff Scheifs Lowry trouba etc. Frolik should be paid more than little?

 

Market value is market value.  Frolik is going to get paid somewhere, whether it's here or not doesn't matter.  Agents aren't comparing their clients to players just on the Jets, they are comparing their clients to other players league-wide. 

 

Should Frolik be paid more than Little?  That question doesn't really make sense because Little is underpaid by today's contracts.  If he was entering free agency this off-season he would easily draw $6 million+.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

 

Burmi as a replacement for Frolik is a joke.  Not even close to the same caliber of player.

And yet one wants $5 million and one could probably be had for $1.5-ish.  Burmi is a very good possession player.  I'd be comfortable with him at 3RW if the other option is over-paying Frolik to play 3RW and get paid like a 2RW.

 

 

I prefer the combination that gives us the better team.  If it all fits under the salary cap, who cares if Frolik is overpaid by a million/year.

 

The Jets care.  As others have said, pay Frolik $1 million too much.  And then Ladd and Buff want $3million too much.  And Scheif, Lowry and Trouba want their "too much".  Then what...?  You over-pay for the final piece that makes you a cup contender.  Dont over-pay one player when you're a bubble team.  You can add Burmi, Ehlers AND another player for what Frolik would cost you.  And I dont think Frolik is worth Burmi and Ehlers.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

If you give Frolik 5 what do u give Ladd buff Scheifs Lowry trouba etc. Frolik should be paid more than little?

 

Market value is market value.  Frolik is going to get paid somewhere, whether it's here or not doesn't matter.  Agents aren't comparing their clients to players just on the Jets, they are comparing their clients to other players league-wide. 

 

Should Frolik be paid more than Little?  That question doesn't really make sense because Little is underpaid by today's contracts.  If he was entering free agency this off-season he would easily draw $6 million+.

 

And Little would be worth it.  Frolik isnt.

[Atomic]

 

 

 

Burmi as a replacement for Frolik is a joke.  Not even close to the same caliber of player.

And yet one wants $5 million and one could probably be had for $1.5-ish.  Burmi is a very good possession player.  I'd be comfortable with him at 3RW if the other option is over-paying Frolik to play 3RW and get paid like a 2RW.

 

 

I prefer the combination that gives us the better team.  If it all fits under the salary cap, who cares if Frolik is overpaid by a million/year.

 

 

If you do that for every player, you've suddenly used up a 1/3 of your cap.

 

Term matters just as much as that dollar value   But Frolik is going to want term.

 

 

Who's talking about every player though?  We need to establish a solid top 6 and have good depth guys in the bottom 6 capable of moving up.  You can't just sign no-one and say "OK let's go with a **** lineup this year because otherwise our hands will be tied in the future."  You can't mortgage the future for the present but you can't sacrifice the present for the future either.

[Atomic]

 

 

 

Burmi as a replacement for Frolik is a joke.  Not even close to the same caliber of player.

And yet one wants $5 million and one could probably be had for $1.5-ish.  Burmi is a very good possession player.  I'd be comfortable with him at 3RW if the other option is over-paying Frolik to play 3RW and get paid like a 2RW.

 

 

I prefer the combination that gives us the better team.  If it all fits under the salary cap, who cares if Frolik is overpaid by a million/year.

 

The Jets care.  As others have said, pay Frolik $1 million too much.  And then Ladd and Buff want $3million too much.  And Scheif, Lowry and Trouba want their "too much".  Then what...?  You over-pay for the final piece that makes you a cup contender.  Dont over-pay one player when you're a bubble team.  You can add Burmi, Ehlers AND another player for what Frolik would cost you.  And I dont think Frolik is worth Burmi and Ehlers.

 

 

You guys are putting way to much emphasis on this silly idea that agents and players are comparing themselves against only players on the Jets.  It doesn't make any sense.  If Frolik gets $5 million somewhere else, Ladd can still say "OK I deserve $7.5 million because look what Frolik is making."  It makes no difference whether he's on the Jets or not.

[Rich]

 

 

 

 

Burmi as a replacement for Frolik is a joke.  Not even close to the same caliber of player.

And yet one wants $5 million and one could probably be had for $1.5-ish.  Burmi is a very good possession player.  I'd be comfortable with him at 3RW if the other option is over-paying Frolik to play 3RW and get paid like a 2RW.

 

 

I prefer the combination that gives us the better team.  If it all fits under the salary cap, who cares if Frolik is overpaid by a million/year.

 

 

If you do that for every player, you've suddenly used up a 1/3 of your cap.

 

Term matters just as much as that dollar value   But Frolik is going to want term.

 

 

Who's talking about every player though?  We need to establish a solid top 6 and have good depth guys in the bottom 6 capable of moving up.  You can't just sign no-one and say "OK let's go with a **** lineup this year because otherwise our hands will be tied in the future."  You can't mortgage the future for the present but you can't sacrifice the present for the future either.

 

 

 

It really depends on what dollar value and term Frolik wants.  There are times when you are better off sacrificing the present for the future.  Sometimes you have to walk away from a deal if it isn't the best thing for you. 

 

Frolik is very good, and I want to re-sign him and keep him.  But is Frolik a legitimate 2nd line winger on a contending team?   I know there is a lot of PK and other things he does well, but if you are going to pay him as a 2nd line winger, then that is as good as your team will be.

[Atomic]

So basically what you're saying is you'd be okay with playing a worse lineup this year in the interest of building for the future.  I feel like we're past that point.  Missing the playoffs this season would be a huge step backwards and the city will NOT take it well.

[Rich]

So basically what you're saying is you'd be okay with playing a worse lineup this year in the interest of building for the future.  I feel like we're past that point.  Missing the playoffs this season would be a huge step backwards and the city will NOT take it well.

 

Yes.

[Atomic]

 

So basically what you're saying is you'd be okay with playing a worse lineup this year in the interest of building for the future.  I feel like we're past that point.  Missing the playoffs this season would be a huge step backwards and the city will NOT take it well.

 

Yes.

 

 

And then next year?  "Well Ladd isn't really a #1 LW and he's going to want to be paid like one so we better get rid of him."  And the year after that -- "Well Perreault isn't a #2 C/LW and he's going to want to be paid like one so we better get rid of him."  And so on, and so on.

 

I mean, who exactly are you comparing Frolik to when you say he's a sub-par 2RW?  Look around the league and you might be surprised by who is passing for a #2 RW on other teams.  We could do a lot worse.  And Burmi is a lot worse, if that's the solution.

 

You can't look at Chicago and say "Well player X wouldn't be a second liner on Chicago so we shouldn't pay him like a second liner."

[Rich]

 

 

So basically what you're saying is you'd be okay with playing a worse lineup this year in the interest of building for the future.  I feel like we're past that point.  Missing the playoffs this season would be a huge step backwards and the city will NOT take it well.

 

Yes.

 

 

And then next year?  "Well Ladd isn't really a #1 LW and he's going to want to be paid like one so we better get rid of him."  And the year after that -- "Well Perreault isn't a #2 C/LW and he's going to want to be paid like one so we better get rid of him."  And so on, and so on.

 

I mean, who exactly are you comparing Frolik to when you say he's a sub-par 2RW?  Look around the league and you might be surprised by who is passing for a #2 RW on other teams.  We could do a lot worse.  And Burmi is a lot worse, if that's the solution.

 

You can't look at Chicago and say "Well player X wouldn't be a second liner on Chicago so we shouldn't pay him like a second liner."

 

 

No, I'd be prepared to pay Ladd more then I am Frolik.

 

As for Perreault,if he is looking for 5 - 6M AAV, then I'm not sure I would take him at that price either.

[Atomic]

I think there are two main points that people need to realize:

 

1.  Winnipeg is going to have to overpay in most situations.  That's a fact.

2.  Our prospects are still prospects.  You can't just load a team up with 21-year-olds and expect them to win games.

[The Unknown Poster]

Agents aren't comparinff Frolik to jets players. But jets management has a budget and is thinking of other jets players.

[sweep the leg]

 

 

 

So basically what you're saying is you'd be okay with playing a worse lineup this year in the interest of building for the future.  I feel like we're past that point.  Missing the playoffs this season would be a huge step backwards and the city will NOT take it well.

 

Yes.

 

 

And then next year?  "Well Ladd isn't really a #1 LW and he's going to want to be paid like one so we better get rid of him."  And the year after that -- "Well Perreault isn't a #2 C/LW and he's going to want to be paid like one so we better get rid of him."  And so on, and so on.

 

I mean, who exactly are you comparing Frolik to when you say he's a sub-par 2RW?  Look around the league and you might be surprised by who is passing for a #2 RW on other teams.  We could do a lot worse.  And Burmi is a lot worse, if that's the solution.

 

You can't look at Chicago and say "Well player X wouldn't be a second liner on Chicago so we shouldn't pay him like a second liner."

 

 

No, I'd be prepared to pay Ladd more then I am Frolik.

 

As for Perreault,if he is looking for 5 - 6M AAV, then I'm not sure I would take him at that price either.

 

I'd give Perreault $5M per based on what he showed last season. I think he's a better player than Frolik, he just needs to show that he can stay healthy.

[Rich]

I think there are two main points that people need to realize:

 

1.  Winnipeg is going to have to overpay in most situations.  That's a fact.

2.  Our prospects are still prospects.  You can't just load a team up with 21-year-olds and expect them to win games.

 

This article is a year old, but it is still very applicable since Frolik's numbers last year were very similar to the year before.  I don't think Frolik will improve drastically on his numbers on where he is today.

 

Plus the cap hasn't really gone up a whole heck of a lot, so there shouldn't be that much of an escalation in the comparables.   The article is an interesting read, but I won't quote all of it.

 

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2014/5/30/5763416/how-much-is-michael-frolik-worth

 

 

 

By The Numbers

Here are the salaries of some players who produced similar numbers to Michael Frolik:

Teddy Purcell (TB) 3 years 13.5 mil, 4.5 mil cap hit

- 42 points (12 goals, 30 assists) in 81 games

Justin Williams (LA) 4 years 14.6 mil, 3.6 mil cap hit

- 43 points (19 goals, 24 assists) in 82 games

Jason Chimera (WSH) 2 years, 4 mil, 2 mil cap hit

- 42 points (15 goals, 27 assists) in 82 games

Andrew Cogliano (ANA) 4 years, 12 mil, 3 mil cap hit

- 42 points ( 21 goals, 21 assists) in 82 games

Looking at these four players, Andrew Cogliano and Justin Williams are the middle ground. Age comparisons point to Andrew Cogliano’s contract as the near perfect contract to give to Michael Frolik. A 3 mil cap hit is exceptionally reasonable for a player like Frolik who can play wherever the coach plunks him. Anything beyond the 3 million dollar range is bordering on a overpay.

 

Granted, there was one year of RFA factored into the suggested contract number, so I don't believe the $3M number to be accurate.  I would be fine with a $4M salary escalating to $5M over 3 - 5 years *Probably $5.5M if he signs 5 years).  But if your salary is starting at $5M in year 1 and escalating from there, I think it is too much of an overpay.

[Goalie]

We will see what happens. Apparently talking to a half dozen or so teams today. Who are they is the question and how close are they to being contenders. How much cap space do they have. He's still talking with the jets too

[The Unknown Poster]

 

So basically what you're saying is you'd be okay with playing a worse lineup this year in the interest of building for the future.  I feel like we're past that point.  Missing the playoffs this season would be a huge step backwards and the city will NOT take it well.

 

Yes.

 

better to take a step back to take two steps forward then take one step forward to take two back.  Pretty logical.  its not like fans are going to riot in the streets if the Jets miss the playoffs while transitioning good young players into the line up

[The Unknown Poster]

For fun, I compared Burmi and Frolik for the last three years they were both in the NHL (2010-2013).

 

Burmistrov:

23 years old

194 Games

23 Goals

35 Assists

0.3 PPG

-12

+4

0

 

Frolik:

27 years old

188 Games

19 Goals

37 Assists

0.3 PPG

+1

-10

+5

 

At four years younger, upwards of $3 million+ cheaper and many years left of RFA status, Ill take Burmi.

[Floyd]

Frolik is fine at $4.5-5 mill...  Great player to have in the lineup, can be first line or third - every team needs a plug and play guy like that.  Glad to hear that talks are still going.  Maybe it gets done - probably just working on term.

[Rich]

If money didn't come into the picture I would take Frolik over Burmi for sure.

 

Burmi has a lot to prove in terms of attitude and being a positive for the team.   Those intangibles don't show up on a stat sheet, and Frolik brings that stuff in spades.

[Atomic]

For fun, I compared Burmi and Frolik for the last three years they were both in the NHL (2010-2013).

 

Burmistrov:

23 years old

194 Games

23 Goals

35 Assists

0.3 PPG

-12

+4

0

 

Frolik:

27 years old

188 Games

19 Goals

37 Assists

0.3 PPG

+1

-10

+5

 

At four years younger, upwards of $3 million+ cheaper and many years left of RFA status, Ill take Burmi.

 

OK now compare the last two years and Frolik has had 84 points in the NHL while Burmi had 73 in the KHL against vastly worse competition.  (Best line in the league has Dustin Boyd and Nigel Dawes playing on it, for frame of reference)

[The Unknown Poster]

 

For fun, I compared Burmi and Frolik for the last three years they were both in the NHL (2010-2013).

 

Burmistrov:

23 years old

194 Games

23 Goals

35 Assists

0.3 PPG

-12

+4

0

 

Frolik:

27 years old

188 Games

19 Goals

37 Assists

0.3 PPG

+1

-10

+5

 

At four years younger, upwards of $3 million+ cheaper and many years left of RFA status, Ill take Burmi.

 

OK now compare the last two years and Frolik has had 84 points in the NHL while Burmi had 73 in the KHL against vastly worse competition.  (Best line in the league has Dustin Boyd and Nigel Dawes playing on it, for frame of reference)

 

Cant compare apples and oranges.  If we do that, we have to give greater weight to Burmi playing for Atlanta and Winnipeg when Frolik played for a loaded Blackhawks team, which then means Burmi was a lot better...and still younger and cheaper.

 

To be honest, the results of the comparison surprised me.  Burmi is better than a lot of people want to remember.  And Frolik is solid but a 3rd line winger on a really good team, not the top line player he often was here.

[The Unknown Poster]

If money didn't come into the picture I would take Frolik over Burmi for sure.

 

Burmi has a lot to prove in terms of attitude and being a positive for the team.   Those intangibles don't show up on a stat sheet, and Frolik brings that stuff in spades.

All things equal, you take Frolik.  But for the money difference, age, etc, you take Burmi.  Frolik is the player he is.  Burmi could flame out or be better than Frolik.  He still has that potential.  And I also think his attitude issues are over-stated.  He didnt get along with the coach.  But he worked his tail off on the ice, just didnt play the systems he was supposed to.  Never heard a bad thing about him off ice and know people who stopped him on the street and in stores for pictures and conversation and he was always very nice.  Remember the story of him showing up at an ice rink and playing hockey with kids for hours.