Politics (Split Thread)

[Fraser]

Frankly there isn't a political party that really inspires my vote but to suggest that harper encourages or tolerates dissent or free thought within his party seems silly at best. Seems like quite the control freak.

Who suggested this?

Obviously you. If one of the things that bugs you above most others about the NDP is that they don't allow dissent or free thought within their party you are either.

A: suggesting there is a political party that differs in this regard and by now we are all well aware of your political alliegences

or

B: hating the NDP above all else for a way in which they are like every other political party in Canada, in that case, showing a real blind hatred towards them

[Rod Black]

Hopefully the NDP win federally. This country needs a shakup. We've been stagnating for the past 20 years.

 

What the hell does that even mean?  Canada has been leading the world in economic growth consistently and are one of the best countries in the world to live in.  If that's stagnation I'll take it.  Go travel the world a bit and come back, and you'll appreciate what we have a lot more.  Have a look at those idiots in the EU, trying to prop up those lazy commies in Greece.  Now THAT"s stagnation.

 

Perhaps be a tad less patronizing? You don't know what I've done or experienced.

 

The economy isn't the be all and end all (and we're nothing special in that regard) - we're stagnating in social progress, environmental progress and healthcare among other things. I didn't say Canada is a bad country to live in.

Raginice, your the one that that brought up the economy. What I have said is who I would vote for. Does that bother you that it's not the NDP? Does it bother you that I'm doing better under this government than any other?

You are welcome to join any organization you want, have them tell you how to vote. I'm voting with my conscience.

[The Unknown Poster]

Yea I'm done talking to you. If you want to have a civil discussion on politics, you should be a little less hostile to people that hold different views than you.

Its difficult for people to be even-keeled when discussing politics.  Im a pretty devout Harper supporter but I try to see all sides.  Harper isnt perfect but the way I look at it, no party is perfect and no party aligns 100% with what I personally want and believe.  But this is our system and its important to be engaged so I choose the best party I believe in.  I also generally look at the party that will do whats best for the country at large and not just me personally.  I'd probably save a few more bucks with the Liberals than the Cons but not to the degree that I would vote for them.

 

Most complaints about Harper and the Cons seem to me to be minor complaints that people who dislike them treat as major issues or things that simply arent true.

 

For example, your position that Canada is stagnating.  Okay, thats a strong opinion to hold.  What do you mean?  Many others would call it stability. 

 

The people that want us to fix climate change, fix health care etc...you realise the fix isnt just an idealogical belief, right?  If you're okay with being heavily, heavily taxed to fix those things, then feel free to write a big cheque because thats what will happen.

 

When Harper first became leader, the other parties tried to paint the "scary" picture of life under the Cons: military in the streets, death penalty, illegal abortions, private health care etc.  None of it happened.  They then went with the "Harper is America's lackey" and that didnt really stick either.  I think we're now onto "Harper is mean".  They'd probably have success going with the Obama plan: say nothing, do nothing...other than "change".  He literally won an election by saying nothing other than "change".  I think people look at a long-serving party/leader and the idea of change can be appealing even if there is no need for it.  In Canada, the media ALWAYS talks about this change when a PM gets into his third mandate.  Thats why there was a lot of chatter about Harper potentially stepping down...there was no need for it but he had served his time.

 

Im not as confident as I was the last three elections that the Cons will win this one.  Mostly because I would never under-estimate the "change" voters.  But I do believe if every single person who votes was informed, and voted carefully, the Cons would win again.  The more Trudeau speaks, the less support he gets.  He is out of touch with average voters.  I think he offended the middle class when he referred to the Cons' tax cut that would provide a small cut for people like me as a "tax cut for the rich" (I aint rich).  He seems like an empty suit, no substance.  The NDP have dialed back the crazy in recent years and come across as the sober, well-meaning, party of the people opposition.  Jack Layton made them seem like a legitimate option.  Mulcair is prone to crazy and I'd suspect he'll have an outburst or two before the election.

 

In a perfect world, the NDP and Liberals end up attacking each other to try and gain the same voters and the Cons slip up the middle and win.  But you never know.  Im probably a bad Conservative because if I was forced to choose anyone other than the Cons, I'd choose the NDP.  Not because they are next closest to what I believe in, but because I think they are more transparent and even-keeled.  Sure, they will raise taxes, push business out and hurt the country but probably not to a degree that we couldnt rebound in five years.  I find the Liberals under Trudeau potentially frightening in that this guy really seems to be a self-absorbed nut.  I think the Cons and NDP think "what can we do to make Canada better" and Trudeau thinks "Canada sucks and can only be saved if everyone is me".

[Rod Black]

Well done UP. I'm impressed.

[17to85]

 

The tax and spend philosophy of the NDP is a surefire way to stagnate the country, at leas the Conservatives and Liberals agree that you need to entice businesses to actually operate in the country. The NDP views corporations as their own private money stash for half baked social programs. 

 

 

 

There's really no evidence to support that position. The NDP actually have the best fiscal record of the major parties at the provincial level. This is straight up cold war style ideology and it hurts political discourse in this country.

 

The country is already stagnant, the NDP literally couldn't do any worse.

 

Oh please not this nonsense. Worst talking point ever. I ain't talking about balancing budgets which is all you are referring to because quite frankly simply balancing the budget isn't what I'm looking for out of a government. I want a balanced budget WITHOUT having to tax more to do it. I want the government stream lined and cuts made AND a lower tax burden on us the tax payers. I am not interested in having my finances raided just so the idealists in the NDP can fund whatever half baked program pops into their head. Being highly taxed stagnates an country. There is a reason why both the Conservatives and Liberals agree that taxing people isn't the solution to the country and are in favour of lower taxes for the most part. Promotes investment in the country and if people have more money in their pockets at the end of the day they have more to spend which keeps the economy going. The NDP would have us all be utterly dependent on the government for everything. 

[kelownabomberfan]

Obviously you. If one of the things that bugs you above most others about the NDP is that they don't allow dissent or free thought within their party you are either.

A: suggesting there is a political party that differs in this regard and by now we are all well aware of your political alliegences

or

B: hating the NDP above all else for a way in which they are like every other political party in Canada, in that case, showing a real blind hatred towards them

I didn't see my complaint about the NDP to be praise of any other party in this area, as what I meant (and obviously didn't really explain very well) is that one of my main issues with the NDP is their hypocrisy when it comes to dissent and free thought. They criticize everyone else for not being free on dissent, yet they are the worst offenders when it comes to this issue. Anyway, I wouldn't call my dislike of the NDP "blind hatred", I would call it well-informed disgust. I watched Howard the Coward run Manitoba into the ground in the 1980's while allowing the unions to just run the province (that's democracy?) and I watched the NDP in BC run our province into the ground. I watched Bob Rae run Ontario into the ground into the 1990's. I "debate" (it's tough to call it debate) NDP zealots on other forums and it's always the same mantra "We are great and can do no wrong". They don't want to admit that there are any issues with their ideology, and the only reason they feel they don't win elections is because the voter is either stupid, or swayed by "attack ads". They don't want to change, and anyone who proposes change is shouted down (this per several people I know who left the NDP). It's our ideology or nothing, and if you don't like it, get lost.

As I said, I just find the NDP to be extremely hypocritical, on this and many other issues. They point fingers at JT and Harper and say that they don't allow dissent, but the NDP are the worst for this. The day I see an NDP actually finally question some of the garbage they are fed by their union masters, like that bogus article Raging just linked to, I will probably keel over in amazement.

[kelownabomberfan]

Most complaints about Harper and the Cons seem to me to be minor complaints that people who dislike them treat as major issues or things that simply arent true.

Well done. CLAP CLAP CLAP

[17to85]

 

Obviously you. If one of the things that bugs you above most others about the NDP is that they don't allow dissent or free thought within their party you are either.

A: suggesting there is a political party that differs in this regard and by now we are all well aware of your political alliegences

or

B: hating the NDP above all else for a way in which they are like every other political party in Canada, in that case, showing a real blind hatred towards them

I didn't see my complaint about the NDP to be praise of any other party in this area, as what I meant (and obviously didn't really explain very well) is that one of my main issues with the NDP is their hypocrisy when it comes to dissent and free thought. They criticize everyone else for not being free on dissent, yet they are the worst offenders when it comes to this issue. Anyway, I wouldn't call my dislike of the NDP "blind hatred", I would call it well-informed disgust. I watched Howard the Coward run Manitoba into the ground in the 1980's while allowing the unions to just run the province (that's democracy?) and I watched the NDP in BC run our province into the ground. I watched Bob Rae run Ontario into the ground into the 1990's. I "debate" (it's tough to call it debate) NDP zealots on other forums and it's always the same mantra "We are great and can do no wrong". They don't want to admit that there are any issues with their ideology, and the only reason they feel they don't win elections is because the voter is either stupid, or swayed by "attack ads". They don't want to change, and anyone who proposes change is shouted down (this per several people I know who left the NDP). It's our ideology or nothing, and if you don't like it, get lost.

As I said, I just find the NDP to be extremely hypocritical, on this and many other issues. They point fingers at JT and Harper and say that they don't allow dissent, but the NDP are the worst for this. The day I see an NDP actually finally question some of the garbage they are fed by their union masters, like that bogus article Raging just linked to, I will probably keel over in amazement.

 

Agreed absolutely. The left likes to take the moral high ground and paint the right wingers are the intolerant ones but holy crap the left is the worst for trying to silence people who disagree with their position. No one tries to ban left wing media out lets like the left tried to ban the sun news network as an example. Not just disagreeing with an opposing viewpoint, trying to censor it! When has the right ever tried to outright censor opposing views?

[Fraser]

 

Obviously you. If one of the things that bugs you above most others about the NDP is that they don't allow dissent or free thought within their party you are either.

A: suggesting there is a political party that differs in this regard and by now we are all well aware of your political alliegences

or

B: hating the NDP above all else for a way in which they are like every other political party in Canada, in that case, showing a real blind hatred towards them

I didn't see my complaint about the NDP to be praise of any other party in this area, as what I meant (and obviously didn't really explain very well) is that one of my main issues with the NDP is their hypocrisy when it comes to dissent and free thought. They criticize everyone else for not being free on dissent, yet they are the worst offenders when it comes to this issue. Anyway, I wouldn't call my dislike of the NDP "blind hatred", I would call it well-informed disgust. I watched Howard the Coward run Manitoba into the ground in the 1980's while allowing the unions to just run the province (that's democracy?) and I watched the NDP in BC run our province into the ground. I watched Bob Rae run Ontario into the ground into the 1990's. I "debate" (it's tough to call it debate) NDP zealots on other forums and it's always the same mantra "We are great and can do no wrong". They don't want to admit that there are any issues with their ideology, and the only reason they feel they don't win elections is because the voter is either stupid, or swayed by "attack ads". They don't want to change, and anyone who proposes change is shouted down (this per several people I know who left the NDP). It's our ideology or nothing, and if you don't like it, get lost.

As I said, I just find the NDP to be extremely hypocritical, on this and many other issues. They point fingers at JT and Harper and say that they don't allow dissent, but the NDP are the worst for this. The day I see an NDP actually finally question some of the garbage they are fed by their union masters, like that bogus article Raging just linked to, I will probably keel over in amazement.

 

 

 

Appreciate the clarification but to suggest any mainstream political party is less or more tolerant of anyones elses ideologies seems like quite a stretch. I don't see any political party calling a presser to discuss the flaws in their beliefs or mention the bright spots in others.

 

Feel free to hate the NDP for any litany of reason but to suggest they criticize everyone the most of having a lack of open mind while having the least open minds themselves seems like a very biased argument that I frankly can't see being based on anything verifiable or substantial

[kelownabomberfan]

Appreciate the clarification but to suggest any mainstream political party is less or more tolerant of anyones elses ideologies seems like quite a stretch. I don't see any political party calling a presser to discuss the flaws in their beliefs or mention the bright spots in others.

 

Feel free to hate the NDP for any litany of reason but to suggest they criticize everyone the most of having a lack of open mind while having the least open minds themselves seems like a very biased argument that I frankly can't see being based on anything verifiable or substantial

Most people can't see the intimidation that goes on behind the scenes if they aren't involved in politics. I should further clarify that I don't just think that the NDP shuts down dissent; I honestly think that there is an element of zealotry in the NDP that results in willful blindness, that is just not seen in other parties. This is the kind of willful blindness that doesn't even need to be enforced. Case in point - no one with even a tenuous hold on actual facts would ever argue that the NDP are better fiscal managers than anyone. A monkey with a dartboard would be better at managing economies and budgets then the NDP in most provinces (Gary Doer perhaps being the exception). Yet you see NDP zealots arguing passionately that their party is the best. This just isn't true, and is completely unsupportable, if one chooses to do even a minute amount of research. But you can't ever speak negatively of the NDP, if you are a zealot. No. Just can't. End of story.

[Atomic]

This is a funny thread because so far no one has actually provided any real, sourced facts.  RagingIce came the closest but far too outdated for my liking.  KBF is.... passionate, but no real, sourced facts yet.  Lots of pretty words from TUP but no actual facts.

 

Where's the stats and facts?  Come on guys I want some real info!  Let's get serious here.

[Rich]

I know people love to debate this stuff and there is nothing wrong with this thread and doing that.

But let's be honest. No one is changing the mind or political alignment of someone else on a message board.

Regardless of what facts or lack there of are presented.

[17to85]

I know people love to debate this stuff and there is nothing wrong with this thread and doing that.

But let's be honest. No one is changing the mind or political alignment of someone else on a message board.

Regardless of what facts or lack there of are presented.

But I'm damned sure going to try. If I can save even one soul it's worth it. 

[Atomic]

I know people love to debate this stuff and there is nothing wrong with this thread and doing that.

But let's be honest. No one is changing the mind or political alignment of someone else on a message board.

Regardless of what facts or lack there of are presented.

 

The KBF's and RagingIce's of the world have already made up their minds, but the undecided out there might still learn stuff.

[The Unknown Poster]

This is a funny thread because so far no one has actually provided any real, sourced facts. RagingIce came the closest but far too outdated for my liking. KBF is.... passionate, but no real, sourced facts yet. Lots of pretty words from TUP but no actual facts.

Where's the stats and facts? Come on guys I want some real info! Let's get serious here.

If you're looking for concrete sourced material on which to base your decision on whom to vote for I hope you don't rely on a sports fan forum!

[Fraser]

 

Appreciate the clarification but to suggest any mainstream political party is less or more tolerant of anyones elses ideologies seems like quite a stretch. I don't see any political party calling a presser to discuss the flaws in their beliefs or mention the bright spots in others.

 

Feel free to hate the NDP for any litany of reason but to suggest they criticize everyone the most of having a lack of open mind while having the least open minds themselves seems like a very biased argument that I frankly can't see being based on anything verifiable or substantial

Most people can't see the intimidation that goes on behind the scenes if they aren't involved in politics. I should further clarify that I don't just think that the NDP shuts down dissent; I honestly think that there is an element of zealotry in the NDP that results in willful blindness, that is just not seen in other parties. This is the kind of willful blindness that doesn't even need to be enforced. Case in point - no one with even a tenuous hold on actual facts would ever argue that the NDP are better fiscal managers than anyone. A monkey with a dartboard would be better at managing economies and budgets then the NDP in most provinces (Gary Doer perhaps being the exception). Yet you see NDP zealots arguing passionately that their party is the best. This just isn't true, and is completely unsupportable, if one chooses to do even a minute amount of research. But you can't ever speak negatively of the NDP, if you are a zealot. No. Just can't. End of story.

 

 

I just feel this is something you fail to see that everyone feels. I'm sure there is lots of intimidation with regard to the large companies typically support a right wing agenda. Case and point I can't see how anyone would consider a right wing agenda to be more open minded than a left wing agenda, especially when their ideology typically includes restrictive and oppresive religious beliefs but I'm being told that they are right now. I don't see any political party welcoming  negative feedback.

 

Everyone thinks everyone else is wrong, everyone thinks they are right, everyone thinks its the other guys that are closed minded.

[Atomic]

 

This is a funny thread because so far no one has actually provided any real, sourced facts. RagingIce came the closest but far too outdated for my liking. KBF is.... passionate, but no real, sourced facts yet. Lots of pretty words from TUP but no actual facts.

Where's the stats and facts? Come on guys I want some real info! Let's get serious here.

If you're looking for concrete sourced material on which to base your decision on whom to vote for I hope you don't rely on a sports fan forum!

 

 

I don't know anything about politics.

 

I'm thinking about running for MP in the next election.

[Rich]

I know people love to debate this stuff and there is nothing wrong with this thread and doing that.

But let's be honest. No one is changing the mind or political alignment of someone else on a message board.

Regardless of what facts or lack there of are presented.

The KBF's and RagingIce's of the world have already made up their minds, but the undecided out there might still learn stuff.

No offence to the posters here but I would hope this wasn't the main source of research for the undecided.

[Atomic]

 

 

I know people love to debate this stuff and there is nothing wrong with this thread and doing that.

But let's be honest. No one is changing the mind or political alignment of someone else on a message board.

Regardless of what facts or lack there of are presented.

The KBF's and RagingIce's of the world have already made up their minds, but the undecided out there might still learn stuff.

No offence to the posters here but I would hope this wasn't the main source of research for the undecided.

 

 

Many voters don't even do that much research.

[Rich]

I know. That's why I said hope.

[kelownabomberfan]

I just feel this is something you fail to see that everyone feels. I'm sure there is lots of intimidation with regard to the large companies typically support a right wing agenda.

I don't know what you are talking about - if a "large company" ever told anyone how to vote and intimidated them, they'd be taken to a human rights commission or tribunal immediately. Unions on the other hand always tell their members how to vote. The stuff that the unions put out here in BC in the last election was just plain sickening. What was really disgusting was the millions of dollars that they blew of member cash, all taken from member dues. They had no say in it, their money was just blown trumpeting the horrible NDP, and they ended up getting nothing for it. I really hate seeing people taken advantage of like that, and told how to vote. That's not democracy.

Anyway that's about it. I get that you want to portray that "it's bad everywhere, not just the NDP". I just will agree to disagree with you that the NDP isn't the worst.

[kelownabomberfan]

This is a funny thread because so far no one has actually provided any real, sourced facts.  RagingIce came the closest but far too outdated for my liking.  KBF is.... passionate, but no real, sourced facts yet.  Lots of pretty words from TUP but no actual facts.

 

Where's the stats and facts?  Come on guys I want some real info!  Let's get serious here.

You don't have to go much further than Manitoba to see how badly the NDP sucks.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2015/04/30/manitoba-budget-live-coverage

How can anyone in good conscience say that the NDP is good at balancing budgets? They are horrible!

As for my mind being made up, not completely true. I am extremely made up in terms of who I am NOT voting for, and I think you can guess which party that is. Oh yeah, and the Greens. Not voting for those insane turd-balls.

[Rod Black]

I know people love to debate this stuff and there is nothing wrong with this thread and doing that.

But let's be honest. No one is changing the mind or political alignment of someone else on a message board.

Regardless of what facts or lack there of are presented.

The KBF's and RagingIce's of the world have already made up their minds, but the undecided out there might still learn stuff.

No offence to the posters here but I would hope this wasn't the main source of research for the undecided.

And if it was my main source of research, then could I be offended?

[Rod Black]

This is a funny thread because so far no one has actually provided any real, sourced facts. RagingIce came the closest but far too outdated for my liking. KBF is.... passionate, but no real, sourced facts yet. Lots of pretty words from TUP but no actual facts.

Where's the stats and facts? Come on guys I want some real info! Let's get serious here.

If you're looking for concrete sourced material on which to base your decision on whom to vote for I hope you don't rely on a sports fan forum!

 

I don't know anything about politics.

 

I'm thinking about running for MP in the next election.

Mr. Atomic, you might learn something from it. I once ran for the Birthday Party, in the Horseyback Riding. Came in 2nd. Was a field of two. Very educational.

[Rich]

I know people love to debate this stuff and there is nothing wrong with this thread and doing that.

But let's be honest. No one is changing the mind or political alignment of someone else on a message board.

Regardless of what facts or lack there of are presented.

The KBF's and RagingIce's of the world have already made up their minds, but the undecided out there might still learn stuff.

No offence to the posters here but I would hope this wasn't the main source of research for the undecided.

And if it was my main source of research, then could I be offended?

I can't give you permission to be offended. Either you are or you aren't. But thanks for asking.