Odds and Sods.....X2 Game, Hamilton at Winnipeg

[TBURGESS]

 

Brohm is Willy without the accuracy.

Brohm gets no love around here. So he must've thrown for 10,000 inaccurate yards at Louisville. Ended up being nominated for a Heisman even though he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Was drafted 56th overall in the NFL draft because he was always overthrowing or underthrowing his receivers who always ran the perfect route and never dropped a catchable ball. What is it that you are seeing about Brohm's "accuracy" that the scouts and coaches at Green Bay and the Bills (and Danny McManus) missed?

 

Brohm's college stats mean he gets chances to play pro.  Other than that, they no longer mean anything.  The NFL's already decided they don't want him even as a 3rd string QB because the NFL scouts and coaches found his game wanting.  

 

Brohm's our 2nd string QB.  His accuracy leaves a lot to be desired.  No... thats not the same as 'can't hit the broadside of a barn', nor does it mean his receivers are always running perfect routes.  It means he isn't throwing on time on target enough to move up the ranks.  Willy's style is similar, but his accuracy is better.

[Doublezero]

 

 

Brohm is Willy without the accuracy.

Brohm gets no love around here. So he must've thrown for 10,000 inaccurate yards at Louisville. Ended up being nominated for a Heisman even though he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Was drafted 56th overall in the NFL draft because he was always overthrowing or underthrowing his receivers who always ran the perfect route and never dropped a catchable ball. What is it that you are seeing about Brohm's "accuracy" that the scouts and coaches at Green Bay and the Bills (and Danny McManus) missed?

 

Brohm's college stats mean he gets chances to play pro.  Other than that, they no longer mean anything.  The NFL's already decided they don't want him even as a 3rd string QB because the NFL scouts and coaches found his game wanting.  

 

Brohm's our 2nd string QB.  His accuracy leaves a lot to be desired.  No... thats not the same as 'can't hit the broadside of a barn', nor does it mean his receivers are always running perfect routes.  It means he isn't throwing on time on target enough to move up the ranks.  Willy's style is similar, but his accuracy is better.

 

For sure, both Willy and Brohm are similar. Both prefer 3 or 5-step throw from the pocket. Brohm reminds me a lot of Danny Mac in terms of throwing mechanics and my guess is that he reminds Danny Mac of Danny Mac. But I have to disagree with you that his timing is off. I have not seen that. He looked very good in the 4 TC practices I attended. He threw on target, on time, with velocity. I like that he gets the ball off faster than Willy and doesn't dawdle forever between snaps. With more playing time he might prove to be Willy's equal or better. I hope though for the sake of Drew Willy and our team that Brohm doesn't get that chance - and that Willy succeeds. Brohm is #2 because Willy was declared #1 from the get-go and is now being compensated as such.

[bearpants]

 

 

Brohm is Willy without the accuracy.

Brohm gets no love around here. So he must've thrown for 10,000 inaccurate yards at Louisville. Ended up being nominated for a Heisman even though he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Was drafted 56th overall in the NFL draft because he was always overthrowing or underthrowing his receivers who always ran the perfect route and never dropped a catchable ball. What is it that you are seeing about Brohm's "accuracy" that the scouts and coaches at Green Bay and the Bills (and Danny McManus) missed?

 

Brohm's college stats mean he gets chances to play pro.  Other than that, they no longer mean anything.  The NFL's already decided they don't want him even as a 3rd string QB because the NFL scouts and coaches found his game wanting.  

 

Brohm's our 2nd string QB.  His accuracy leaves a lot to be desired.  No... thats not the same as 'can't hit the broadside of a barn', nor does it mean his receivers are always running perfect routes.  It means he isn't throwing on time on target enough to move up the ranks.  Willy's style is similar, but his accuracy is better.

 

 

I'm no Brohm hater... but I agree completely with this..

 

As for Marve... I know a lot of technical side of his game leaves a lot to be desired... but man that guy is fun to watch... I realize you can't rely on your legs all the time, but he just finds ways to get it done and I feel like he will find ways to win... I really hope he improves his pocket presence this year and sticks around as the back up next year... 

[17to85]

Doug Brown said it best with regards to Marve I think. He's just a spark for the team. Brings an energy and excitement level to the team because of how he plays. Hopefully he keeps progressing as a passer and can climb the depth chart because I think there is something to be said for a guy that can spark a team. 

[kelownabomberfan]

I agree with Atomic.

There is nothing stopping our game planning from throwing Marve into a game as a nice change of pace.

That move would provide another weapon to move the ball. It's been done before with success and it would be a giant boost for our offence.

Brohm is #2 so we don't have to change much of the O if Willy goes down, and there's nothing wrong with that.

As good as Tom Clements was, Cal rarely hesitated to throw Huffer in if Clements got into a two and out rut. Even in the Grey Cup in '84. I never saw anything foul up a defence more then suddenly having to adjust to a drop back qb with deadly accuracy after facing a scrambler. The same could work in reverse. It would be nice to see MB and MOS try it with Willy/Marve. Brohm can hold a clip-board.

[Noeller]

MOS on why Marve is 3rd on the chart (via Wpg FP):

 

"The fans see great excitement (in Marve) and moving the ball, especially with his feet. We’d like (Marve) to wait the extra second and make that throw if it’s open. And he sees that himself... He still has some growth."

[TBURGESS]

O'Shea said they want Marve to stick around in the pocket for an extra second rather than run.  IMO that's missing the point of a QB who can run like Marve can.  As long as he's getting first downs, I don't care much how he gets them.  That being said, I hope we don't see much of Marve this season because that means both Willy and Brohm have failed or are injured.

[blitzmore]

MOS on why Marve is 3rd on the chart (via Wpg FP):

 

"The fans see great excitement (in Marve) and moving the ball, especially with his feet. We’d like (Marve) to wait the extra second and make that throw if it’s open. And he sees that himself... He still has some growth."

That's what he said last year as well...so in his mind he doesn't think that Marve has progressed. It makes me think they will never think he has progressed whether he has or not.

[bearpants]

MOS on why Marve is 3rd on the chart (via Wpg FP):

 

"The fans see great excitement (in Marve) and moving the ball, especially with his feet. We’d like (Marve) to wait the extra second and make that throw if it’s open. And he sees that himself... He still has some growth."

 

It's almost like O'Shea and his staff know more than a bunch of randoms on a fan site... no, that can't be right... 

[TBURGESS]

MOS on why Marve is 3rd on the chart (via Wpg FP):

 

"The fans see great excitement (in Marve) and moving the ball, especially with his feet. We’d like (Marve) to wait the extra second and make that throw if it’s open. And he sees that himself... He still has some growth."

It's almost like Marve knew he shouldn't sign a contract extension because he knew his style's wrong for our HC. 

[Doublezero]

 

MOS on why Marve is 3rd on the chart (via Wpg FP):

 

"The fans see great excitement (in Marve) and moving the ball, especially with his feet. We’d like (Marve) to wait the extra second and make that throw if it’s open. And he sees that himself... He still has some growth."

It's almost like Marve knew he shouldn't sign a contract extension because he knew his style's wrong for our HC. 

 

Once MOS declared Willy the starter in Feb 2014 they had to design an offence suited to his strengths: 3-5 step drop. Then Brohm was signed, similar style, as Walters said, to provide competition. Marve is a different cat, and would require a change in O philosophy if they were to contemplate using him in anything more than a situational role. So yeah, Marve has to adapt to the system they've got in place here for Willy. Now, whether Drew Willy's style of drop back pocket passer is correct and successful for 3-down CFL wide-field ball is another very legit question. We might see Willy run a bit more this year which could be interesting - also gives Bellefueille & co a chance to use Marve a bit more often. 

[Fatty Liver]

 

MOS on why Marve is 3rd on the chart (via Wpg FP):

 

"The fans see great excitement (in Marve) and moving the ball, especially with his feet. We’d like (Marve) to wait the extra second and make that throw if it’s open. And he sees that himself... He still has some growth."

It's almost like Marve knew he shouldn't sign a contract extension because he knew his style's wrong for our HC. 

 

 

That's a good point but I think it's more likely that Marcel doesn't know what to do with Marve.  It's analogous to a trainer having to work with a wild mustang when he's more comfortable working with thoroughbreds. Could be a control issue of "who's the boss" in that on a designated play a certain receiver is "supposed" to get the ball, were Marve''s game is more suited to "there's an open receiver, here's the ball" or often, "there's room to run, bye-bye".  Marve plays in the moment so he will be difficult to program but much like Flutie and Collaros that is probably the way he has always found success in football.

 

Unless a head-coach or O.C. has complete trust in this type of QB to succeed, there is going to be a fair bit of head-butting going on.  This is pretty much what happened to Flutie in Buffalo when they kept trying to over-ride his on-field success by replacing him with the more programmable Rob Johnson.  Coach's prefer to work with predictable systems although football is an inherently chaotic game.

[sweep the leg]

 

MOS on why Marve is 3rd on the chart (via Wpg FP):

 

"The fans see great excitement (in Marve) and moving the ball, especially with his feet. We’d like (Marve) to wait the extra second and make that throw if it’s open. And he sees that himself... He still has some growth."

That's what he said last year as well...so in his mind he doesn't think that Marve has progressed. It makes me think they will never think he has progressed whether he has or not.

 

They probably hate him and it's become personal.

[mbrg]

What OShea said:

 

MOS on why Marve is 3rd on the chart (via Wpg FP):

 

"The fans see great excitement (in Marve) and moving the ball, especially with his feet. We’d like (Marve) to wait the extra second and make that throw if it’s open. And he sees that himself... He still has some growth."

 

What Tburg somehow manages to read:

 

O'Shea said they want Marve to stick around in the pocket for an extra second rather than run. 

 

I could point out that at no point does OShea say anything about staying in the pocket, but I know Tburg could re-read it a thousand times and only come up with his interpretation a thousand times.  No one in the Bomber org has ever used the term "pocket passer" in association with Marve.

 

 

Doug Brown said it best with regards to Marve I think.

 

Brown also said on one of Marve's last throws of the game  - I think that's the first time I've ever seen Marve go thru his entire progression of reads!

 

Which is exactly what OShea (and every person here who understands why Brohm is still #2) is talking about.  Nothing about trying to turn him into a pocket QB or not wanting him to move outside the pocket.  Entirely and all about learning to read CFL coverages.  Nothing about not wanting him to run for 20 yards.  Entirely and all about him recognizing and making the throw for 40 that he could have spotted if he made it past his primary read.

[kelownabomberfan]

MOS on why Marve is 3rd on the chart (via Wpg FP):

 

"The fans see great excitement (in Marve) and moving the ball, especially with his feet. We’d like (Marve) to wait the extra second and make that throw if it’s open. And he sees that himself... He still has some growth."

That's what he said last year as well...so in his mind he doesn't think that Marve has progressed. It makes me think they will never think he has progressed whether he has or not.

They probably hate him and it's become personal.

 

I don't know what else it could be. Kind of a modern-day Cinderella story here, with Willy and Brohm being the ugly step-sisters.

[Fan Boy]

 

MOS on why Marve is 3rd on the chart (via Wpg FP):

 

"The fans see great excitement (in Marve) and moving the ball, especially with his feet. We’d like (Marve) to wait the extra second and make that throw if it’s open. And he sees that himself... He still has some growth."

 

It's almost like O'Shea and his staff know more than a bunch of randoms on a fan site... no, that can't be right...  

 

What OShea said:

 

MOS on why Marve is 3rd on the chart (via Wpg FP):

 

"The fans see great excitement (in Marve) and moving the ball, especially with his feet. We’d like (Marve) to wait the extra second and make that throw if it’s open. And he sees that himself... He still has some growth."

 

What Tburg somehow manages to read:

 

O'Shea said they want Marve to stick around in the pocket for an extra second rather than run. 

 

I could point out that at no point does OShea say anything about staying in the pocket, but I know Tburg could re-read it a thousand times and only come up with his interpretation a thousand times.  No one in the Bomber org has ever used the term "pocket passer" in association with Marve.

 

 

Doug Brown said it best with regards to Marve I think.

 

Brown also said on one of Marve's last throws of the game  - I think that's the first time I've ever seen Marve go thru his entire progression of reads!

 

Which is exactly what OShea (and every person here who understands why Brohm is still #2) is talking about.  Nothing about trying to turn him into a pocket QB or not wanting him to move outside the pocket.  Entirely and all about learning to read CFL coverages.  Nothing about not wanting him to run for 20 yards.  Entirely and all about him recognizing and making the throw for 40 that he could have spotted if he made it past his primary read.

 

 

congrats, I agree completely. This is a pretty reasonable position for thinking people to take. I think MOS and KW are thinking people. I think they might be wrong in their thinking as all people are from time to time but If they didn't think Marve had a possible future here he wouldn't be here. There are ever so many football players out there coming out of college every year thinking they can play quarterback, you can always find someone to try. 

[mbrg]

Since I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere - not that it took long before this turned into another Marve thread - Griffith was taking Dline reps (tackle) with some of the 2's during the 3rd quarter on Friday.  Not completely surprising I suppose as someone mentioned he's a Dline conversion project, but there had been no mention of him taking any reps there during camp.

 

One player who caught my eye more than once with his work ethic on special teams was Willy (the receiver).  Thought that might be enough to get him a PR job.  Didn't happen.

 

One guy whose performance I didn't much care for was Kearney, and he did make the team.

 

In the cases of both Willy and Kearney, I'm forming an opinion based on about 3 plays, whereas the coaches are making theirs based on closer to 3,000.  I will grudgingly concede.  This time.

 

He never got a chance to punt during the game (probably insurance reasons for that) but the punter from the Rifles was hoofing a few at halftime and he looked decent.  Great arc and hang time, decent distance.  I could see him getting a contract offer from the Bombers in the future, something along the lines of a territorial exemption thing like Goodrich.  If it applies.

[JuranBoldenRules]

O'Shea said they want Marve to stick around in the pocket for an extra second rather than run.  IMO that's missing the point of a QB who can run like Marve can.  As long as he's getting first downs, I don't care much how he gets them.  That being said, I hope we don't see much of Marve this season because that means both Willy and Brohm have failed or are injured.

 

He needs to learn how to pass.  It's just way too easy to defend him now.  After a couple runs, Hamilton started using a delayed blitz, filling all the gaps up front and daring Marve to make a good throw from the pocket.  That is what will happen if he doesn't progress, everyone knows what's coming.

[Yourface]

 

O'Shea said they want Marve to stick around in the pocket for an extra second rather than run.  IMO that's missing the point of a QB who can run like Marve can.  As long as he's getting first downs, I don't care much how he gets them.  That being said, I hope we don't see much of Marve this season because that means both Willy and Brohm have failed or are injured.

 

He needs to learn how to pass.  It's just way too easy to defend him now.  After a couple runs, Hamilton started using a delayed blitz, filling all the gaps up front and daring Marve to make a good throw from the pocket.  That is what will happen if he doesn't progress, everyone knows what's coming.

 

 

... And Marve did make good throws from the pocket after that. In fact he showed more of an ability to throw the ball than Brohm did.

 

Marve gives the Bombers a much better chance to win than Brohm. That's why he should be the primary backup.

[kelownabomberfan]

O'Shea said they want Marve to stick around in the pocket for an extra second rather than run.  IMO that's missing the point of a QB who can run like Marve can.  As long as he's getting first downs, I don't care much how he gets them.  That being said, I hope we don't see much of Marve this season because that means both Willy and Brohm have failed or are injured.

 

He needs to learn how to pass.  It's just way too easy to defend him now.  After a couple runs, Hamilton started using a delayed blitz, filling all the gaps up front and daring Marve to make a good throw from the pocket.  That is what will happen if he doesn't progress, everyone knows what's coming.

Watching Marve in the TO game (and I still am mad at TSN for not showing the Hamilton game) I just don't get the tag on him that he can't pass. Ken Ploen wasn't exactly the prettiest passer either. Marve made a beauty pass for a TD in the TO game to Tuinei. He's no Ricky Ray, I'll give you that, but he's also no Tim Tebow either. Or Justin Goltz. He gets the ball there a lot of the time. What I see now is that he just needs playing time to get the timing down. Then look out. He could tear up this league, Tom Clements style, if given a chance.

[Mr Dee]

... And Marve did make good throws from the pocket after that. In fact he showed more of an ability to throw the ball than Brohm did.

Marve gives the Bombers a much better chance to win than Brohm. That's why he should be the primary backup.

You're funny.

After all that has just been written regarding Marve and the reason he is still #3, you proceed to follow the same line of reasoning.

Makes me think you don't chew your food before swallowing either.

[Goalie]

Only thing I'll say about Marve is the guy has tons of potential and definitely brings a spark to the team, he's a good change of pace QB however, with that being said, if you want to ruin a prospect QB in the CFL, you play him before he's actually ready. Marve isn't ready yet, he might be soon but he isn't there yet. What JBR said is true, teams now have film on him, he won't surprise them anymore, he needs to learn to pass first, needs to go through his reads, not just the first one but all of them, then if nothing there, go ahead and take off.. but for the most part, it's one read and then run... yeah it's exciting he gets a 15 20 yard run, awesome but if he went through his other reads, maybe just maybe he would have gotten a 20 30 40 yard pass out of it. 

 

The worst thing you can do is rush a qb before they are ready, that's the way careers are ruined.. You want him to be a good one in the future? You develop him slowly and let him learn the game and learn to become a CFL qb, that means reading the D, standing in the pocket, going through all your reads... 

 

He's exciting to watch but... i feel these run first qb's like Marve is right now are doomed to be carted off the field one day... who was the hamilton qb last year? Was it lefevour? or someone else? not sure but the guys season ended because he'd basically look at one read and then take off... got caught doing that and was carted off the field. 

 

But really isn't it just the winnipeg way really... the backups always get all the love... 

 

I'll never forget that game in the mike kelly year there, fans were booing qb's off the field left right and center, kelly i guess being insane decided to actually listen and used all the qb's and they all looked like total crap cuz none of them were actually ready, all those guys are now gone and selling cars somewhere. 

 

The worst thing you can do is rush a qb, the guy is a CFL rookie pretty much, 1 year under his belt, takes longer than 1 year for QB's to develop in the CFL that's for damn sure. 

 

I'm not comparing Marve to him but... didn't people say these things about Brian Randall too or whatever his name was?

[Yourface]

 

 

O'Shea said they want Marve to stick around in the pocket for an extra second rather than run.  IMO that's missing the point of a QB who can run like Marve can.  As long as he's getting first downs, I don't care much how he gets them.  That being said, I hope we don't see much of Marve this season because that means both Willy and Brohm have failed or are injured.

 

He needs to learn how to pass.  It's just way too easy to defend him now.  After a couple runs, Hamilton started using a delayed blitz, filling all the gaps up front and daring Marve to make a good throw from the pocket.  That is what will happen if he doesn't progress, everyone knows what's coming.

 

Watching Marve in the TO game (and I still am mad at TSN for not showing the Hamilton game) I just don't get the tag on him that he can't pass. Ken Ploen wasn't exactly the prettiest passer either. Marve made a beauty pass for a TD in the TO game to Tuinei. He's no Ricky Ray, I'll give you that, but he's also no Tim Tebow either. Or Justin Goltz. He gets the ball there a lot of the time. What I see now is that he just needs playing time to get the timing down. Then look out. He could tear up this league, Tom Clements style, if given a chance.

 

 

Agreed. Through all of their preseason + regular season games so far, Marve has a better completion percentage than Brohm (56% vs. 54%), and that's despite Marve playing in much more demanding situations.

[Yourface]

 

... And Marve did make good throws from the pocket after that. In fact he showed more of an ability to throw the ball than Brohm did.

Marve gives the Bombers a much better chance to win than Brohm. That's why he should be the primary backup.

You're funny.

After all that has just been written regarding Marve and the reason he is still #3, you proceed to follow the same line of reasoning.

Makes me think you don't chew your food before swallowing either.

 

 

Well excuse me for wanting the Bombers to win more than anything. The words of the coaching staff aren't flawless you know.... Unlike some of you, I realize that O'Shea and Bellefeuille have their biases too.

[Goalie]

Marve has gotten the garbage time in pre-season bro, he's playing against guys who are no longer on the teams he played against. To suggest Marve played in more demanding situations is complete BS really... 

 

Marve has played against the other teams 3rd stringers for the most part, he's been the qb that got the reps in the 3rd and 4th quarters, more so the 4th quarter. As a matter of fact this past week, he was the last guy in the game playing against guys who were just cut by Hamilton. 

 

I like Marve but... i would suggest you seem to have a little bit of a love affair with the guy... 

 

I'll take the pros words over the Joes anyday of the week and twice on Sundays. This is what i'll never understand on these fan forums, we are fans, that's what we are, yeah we have some knowledge but, our knowledge combined is nothing compared to what the guys who actually do it for a living have. I think sometimes, we may forget that and think we have all the answers when in reality, we have very little answers. 

 

We base our thoughts on what? 10 15 30 plays? The pros base their thoughts on hours upon hours upon hours of film and practice reps.. videos, all sorts of things, just cuz a guy goes out there and moves the ball, doesn't mean he's doing what he's supposed to do... 

 

 

15 20 30 plays... vs hours upon hours of film and practice .