Fire Richie Hall

[Blueandgold]

Randle needs to be moved back to Corner immediately. 

[gbill2004]

Randle needs to be moved back to Corner immediately.

Agreed. And bring back Unamba to play SAM.

[Goalie]

Unamba wasn't very good, i don't think he makes a difference at all. I think watching the other teams around the league, the biggest difference I have seen is our guys are playing 5 to 10 yards off the receivers,  really not getting any pressure at all from our dline either... like none. But i don't see other teams playing 5 or 10 yards off the receivers so it tells me that it's the scheme that needs to change. Maybe the game has changed a bit and hall hasn't changed with it? 

[IC Khari]

I think we'll be fine once the sucking wears off

[Tracker]

I think we'll be fine once the sucking wears off

That assumes that the team is ready to be weaned.

[JuranBoldenRules]

Unamba wasn't very good, i don't think he makes a difference at all. I think watching the other teams around the league, the biggest difference I have seen is our guys are playing 5 to 10 yards off the receivers,  really not getting any pressure at all from our dline either... like none. But i don't see other teams playing 5 or 10 yards off the receivers so it tells me that it's the scheme that needs to change. Maybe the game has changed a bit and hall hasn't changed with it? 

 

Everyone is playing zone so far this year in their base defense.  It's pretty much impossible to play the man/match coverages when you can't run receivers into "checkpoints" downfield and toss them off their routes without it being called a penalty.

 

The Bombers problem is in their front.

[gbill2004]

Unamba wasn't very good, i don't think he makes a difference at all. I think watching the other teams around the league, the biggest difference I have seen is our guys are playing 5 to 10 yards off the receivers, really not getting any pressure at all from our dline either... like none. But i don't see other teams playing 5 or 10 yards off the receivers so it tells me that it's the scheme that needs to change. Maybe the game has changed a bit and hall hasn't changed with it?

Everyone is playing zone so far this year in their base defense. It's pretty much impossible to play the man/match coverages when you can't run receivers into "checkpoints" downfield and toss them off their routes without it being called a penalty.

The Bombers problem is in their front.

Do you see the problem with the front as a scheme issue, or a talent issue?

[TBURGESS]

It's not one or the other...it's both scheme and talent.

[gbill2004]

It's not one or the other...it's both scheme and talent.

Why do you think that, based on what you've seen so far?

[Mr Dee]

It's not one or the other...it's both scheme and talent.

Why do you think that, based on what you've seen so far?

The trouble is, I don't think we've seen enough so far. With the deployment of 3 new LBs behind a crop of 4 linemen (1 new to the league) I'd be hesitant to lay it at the feet of the players so far. Especially when we don't know the exact scheme they're learning. I'll admit, it sure doesn't look good, but it's too soon to tell. That front 7 problem is going to have to be resolved soon, so that changes can be made where necessary. Let's hope it is just mistakes, because those can be corrected. Talent...not so much.

[Fatty Liver]

What I have noticed so far this season is a distinct similarity in the Defensive problems that both the Bombers and Sask. are experiencing.  Poor pressure from the D-Lines and LB's and breakdowns in coverage in the secondaries are common to both teams.

 

I don't believe that this can be attributed solely to poor personnel as Sask. has an excellent D-Line and yet they have been held to 3 sacks in 2 games.  The Bombers D-Line is so-far unproven and has accumulated only 1 sack in two games.  Both teams have unproven LB groups and they are both receiving heavy criticism for ineffective tackling and poor positional play.  From last years performances I have no problem rating both secondaries in the top half of the league and yet they have looked extremely inept in coverage this year.

 

The common denominator for both teams is of course Richie Hall but I have to wonder if both teams are heavily invested in a similar defensive system that has been badly exposed by the new coverage rules stressing non-contact.  I'm unwilling at this point to accept that the defects can be blamed entirely on the player personnel as both D's have plenty of good proven veterans.

 

So, are the Wpg. and Sask. D's virtual clones?

[dmillerywg]

What I have noticed so far this season is a distinct similarity in the Defensive problems that both the Bombers and Sask. are suffering from.  Poor pressure from the D-Lines and LB's and breakdowns in coverage from the secondaries are common to both teams. 

 

I don't believe that this can be attributed solely to poor personnel as Sask. has an excellent D-Line and yet they have been held to 3 sacks in 2 games.  The Bombers D-Line is so-far unproven and has accumulated only 1 sack in two games.  Both teams have unproven LB groups and they are both receiving heavy criticism for ineffective tackling and poor positional play.  From last years performances I have no problem rating both secondaries in the top half of the league and yet they have looked extremely inept in coverage this year.

 

The common denominator for both teams is of course Richie Hall but I have to wonder if both teams are heavily invested in a similar defensive system that has been badly exposed by the new coverage rules stressing non-contact.  I'm unwilling at this point to accept that the defects can be blamed entirely on the player personnel as both D's have plenty of good proven veterans.

You make a very good point that it might be Richie Hall D's are too old school for the new rules ?

That and some players in the wrong positions... Randlie should be a CB and it seems Bass is out of his league ( not sure why he made the team ) and Hurl seems lost

[DR. CFL]

You indicate Bass is out of his league and Hurl seems lost and this is the DCs fault. Coaches ride the horses they are given. He got some lame ponies it seems.

[M.O.A.B.]

 

What I have noticed so far this season is a distinct similarity in the Defensive problems that both the Bombers and Sask. are suffering from.  Poor pressure from the D-Lines and LB's and breakdowns in coverage from the secondaries are common to both teams. 

 

I don't believe that this can be attributed solely to poor personnel as Sask. has an excellent D-Line and yet they have been held to 3 sacks in 2 games.  The Bombers D-Line is so-far unproven and has accumulated only 1 sack in two games.  Both teams have unproven LB groups and they are both receiving heavy criticism for ineffective tackling and poor positional play.  From last years performances I have no problem rating both secondaries in the top half of the league and yet they have looked extremely inept in coverage this year.

 

The common denominator for both teams is of course Richie Hall but I have to wonder if both teams are heavily invested in a similar defensive system that has been badly exposed by the new coverage rules stressing non-contact.  I'm unwilling at this point to accept that the defects can be blamed entirely on the player personnel as both D's have plenty of good proven veterans.

You make a very good point that it might be Richie Hall D's are too old school for the new rules ?

That and some players in the wrong positions... Randlie should be a CB and it seems Bass is out of his league ( not sure why he made the team ) and Hurl seems lost

 

 

I agree that Randle should be moved back to the weakside CB. Let Shell, Adams, Wright, Burnett or Unamba (bring back) to man the SAM.

 

I would try to switch Hurl and Bass. Bass to the MAC and Hurl on the WIL.

[Ripper]

What I have noticed so far this season is a distinct similarity in the Defensive problems that both the Bombers and Sask. are experiencing.  Poor pressure from the D-Lines and LB's and breakdowns in coverage in the secondaries are common to both teams.

 

I don't believe that this can be attributed solely to poor personnel as Sask. has an excellent D-Line and yet they have been held to 3 sacks in 2 games.  The Bombers D-Line is so-far unproven and has accumulated only 1 sack in two games.  Both teams have unproven LB groups and they are both receiving heavy criticism for ineffective tackling and poor positional play.  From last years performances I have no problem rating both secondaries in the top half of the league and yet they have looked extremely inept in coverage this year.

 

The common denominator for both teams is of course Richie Hall but I have to wonder if both teams are heavily invested in a similar defensive system that has been badly exposed by the new coverage rules stressing non-contact.  I'm unwilling at this point to accept that the defects can be blamed entirely on the player personnel as both D's have plenty of good proven veterans.

 

So, are the Wpg. and Sask. D's virtual clones?

Good post. Funny thing is we wanted out of Hall's defence which is basically a soft zone secondary relying on pressure up front to cause turnovers. Bombers trouble is they aren't generating the pressure up front to make the scheme work. We supposedly wanted a more pressure defence ( which I'm still friggin waiting to see). The irony is Hall's defence is better suited to the new rules. Once You guys start generating a pass rush and the LB's settle in, I think you guys are going to do well. Hall's defence is one that doesn't take a lot of PI calls because the db's are playing off the receivers. Conversely Chamblins pressure defence will likely see us lead the league in PI calls this year. I'm hoping Chamblin opens his eyes and starts turning this around. Its painful to see a offence generate over 1000 yards in 2 games and lose them both. You guys are sitting a little better right now, basically the shell shock of the Willy injury cost u the second game, the team didn't rebound. Same happened to us in the first game against u, but very concerning that we couldn't/ didn't improve in the second game. Kicking off the season with a couple home loses doesn't cut it with this fan. 

[KptKrunch]

 

Unamba wasn't very good, i don't think he makes a difference at all. I think watching the other teams around the league, the biggest difference I have seen is our guys are playing 5 to 10 yards off the receivers,  really not getting any pressure at all from our dline either... like none. But i don't see other teams playing 5 or 10 yards off the receivers so it tells me that it's the scheme that needs to change. Maybe the game has changed a bit and hall hasn't changed with it? 

 

Everyone is playing zone so far this year in their base defense.  It's pretty much impossible to play the man/match coverages when you can't run receivers into "checkpoints" downfield and toss them off their routes without it being called a penalty.

 

The Bombers problem is in their front.

 

 

Agreed. We are getting almost zero pressure on the QB's. The main reason why Hamilton dominated Willy (after that first drive) and then Brohm was that they dominated in the pass rush and residually controlled the run game with that pressure and the score. 

 

Until we get some consistent pressure we could have  Roy Bennett, Rod Hill, James Jefferson, and Vince Phason back there and we'd still look silly.

 

So far, on defense, IMO the biggest disappointment has been Westerman. Has he even made a tackle yet? Is he even playing? I don't even see him when the bombers D is on the field. 

[Armchair GM]

It's not one or the other...it's both scheme and talent.

 

Hall's defence is like Burke's defence.  Its effectiveness is predicated on above-average front-four pass rush, and above-average cornerback play.  He inherited much of Etcheverry's talent, and therefore, he either doesn't have the talent, or the talent needs to get acclimated to his D.  I think the talent's the issue personally, but that's just one man's opinion.

 

Bottom line is Hall's scheme can be effective once it's got the right talent, and that talent gels.  Neither is there yet, and the results are what we see on the field.

[Armchair GM]

You make a very good point that it might be Richie Hall D's are too old school for the new rules ?

That and some players in the wrong positions... Randlie should be a CB and it seems Bass is out of his league ( not sure why he made the team ) and Hurl seems lost

 

This is a great point, and not one that can easily be dismissed by saying talent is the problem (as I've previously suggested).

 

I'm of the opinion that we don't have the talent to execute Hall's defence effectively right now.  But a scheme predicated on front-four pressure and tight CB play might be a bad fit with the new rules. 

 

The one thing I think we can all agree on is that Randle's a poor fit at SAM, and last year was a great CB.  That's an easy problem to fix, after we concede our stubbornness isn't helping our defence.  It doesn't matter that Randle played some SAM in Calgary.  It matters to put your talent in the best position to win.  And for Winnipeg and Randle... that's at CB.

[17to85]

 

 

Unamba wasn't very good, i don't think he makes a difference at all. I think watching the other teams around the league, the biggest difference I have seen is our guys are playing 5 to 10 yards off the receivers,  really not getting any pressure at all from our dline either... like none. But i don't see other teams playing 5 or 10 yards off the receivers so it tells me that it's the scheme that needs to change. Maybe the game has changed a bit and hall hasn't changed with it? 

 

Everyone is playing zone so far this year in their base defense.  It's pretty much impossible to play the man/match coverages when you can't run receivers into "checkpoints" downfield and toss them off their routes without it being called a penalty.

 

The Bombers problem is in their front.

 

 

Agreed. We are getting almost zero pressure on the QB's. The main reason why Hamilton dominated Willy (after that first drive) and then Brohm was that they dominated in the pass rush and residually controlled the run game with that pressure and the score. 

 

Until we get some consistent pressure we could have  Roy Bennett, Rod Hill, James Jefferson, and Vince Phason back there and we'd still look silly.

 

So far, on defense, IMO the biggest disappointment has been Westerman. Has he even made a tackle yet? Is he even playing? I don't even see him when the bombers D is on the field. 

 

Anderson and Turner haven't done much of anything either. I like both of those players but they need to start taking control of the line cause they've got their asses kicked both weeks so far. 

[TBURGESS]

 

It's not one or the other...it's both scheme and talent.

 

Hall's defence is like Burke's defence.  Its effectiveness is predicated on above-average front-four pass rush, and above-average cornerback play.  He inherited much of Etcheverry's talent, and therefore, he either doesn't have the talent, or the talent needs to get acclimated to his D.  I think the talent's the issue personally, but that's just one man's opinion.

 

Bottom line is Hall's scheme can be effective once it's got the right talent, and that talent gels.  Neither is there yet, and the results are what we see on the field.

 

Hall's defence is a problem that can be solved by modifying the defence to match the players we have.  Good coaches make changes to put the players they have into the best possible situations to excel.  Hall's defence would work better if we had an all-star defensive line with a solid group of LB's behind them.  Everyone's defence would.  We don't have that luxury and we will lose a lot of games if Hall can't figure out what to do with the players he has. 

 

I consider it a failure in scouting that we have 3 of the 4 starters from last years D line starting again this year.  Anderson and Turner aren't providing much push and Peach is more of a backup than a starter IMO. Westerman just needs to be an average DE due to his passport, but he hasn't found his game and he's not there yet, but it's still early.  

 

Our LB's have been a major problem so far.  Randle's a top end CB being wasted in the LB crew.  He's not even up to average there. Hurl's a rotation MLB, not a ratio breaker and Bass is the best of the bunch that we brought in in the offseason.

 

All the above leads me to believe that its both personal and coaching with some scouting problems thrown in.

[Ripper]

You indicate Bass is out of his league and Hurl seems lost and this is the DCs fault. Coaches ride the horses they are given. He got some lame ponies it seems.

Hall should have a pretty good idea where Hurl is at after watching him everyday in practice for 4 years.

[Tracker]

Unamba wasn't very good, i don't think he makes a difference at all. I think watching the other teams around the league, the biggest difference I have seen is our guys are playing 5 to 10 yards off the receivers,  really not getting any pressure at all from our dline either... like none. But i don't see other teams playing 5 or 10 yards off the receivers so it tells me that it's the scheme that needs to change. Maybe the game has changed a bit and hall hasn't changed with it?

 

Everyone is playing zone so far this year in their base defense.  It's pretty much impossible to play the man/match coverages when you can't run receivers into "checkpoints" downfield and toss them off their routes without it being called a penalty.

 

The Bombers problem is in their front.

 

Agreed. We are getting almost zero pressure on the QB's. The main reason why Hamilton dominated Willy (after that first drive) and then Brohm was that they dominated in the pass rush and residually controlled the run game with that pressure and the score. 

 

Until we get some consistent pressure we could have  Roy Bennett, Rod Hill, James Jefferson, and Vince Phason back there and we'd still look silly.

 

So far, on defense, IMO the biggest disappointment has been Westerman. Has he even made a tackle yet? Is he even playing? I don't even see him when the bombers D is on the field.

While Westerman has not made anyone forget Doug Brown, there's lots of blame to go around. If none of his linemates can consistently break through in one-on-ones then the opposition can put two on Westerman and that's the end of that. If memory serves, the biggest pressure last year came when Teague Sherman blitzed from his outside linebacker spot. Maybe we could name this lot "Four on the Floor".

[bearpants]

 

 

Unamba wasn't very good, i don't think he makes a difference at all. I think watching the other teams around the league, the biggest difference I have seen is our guys are playing 5 to 10 yards off the receivers,  really not getting any pressure at all from our dline either... like none. But i don't see other teams playing 5 or 10 yards off the receivers so it tells me that it's the scheme that needs to change. Maybe the game has changed a bit and hall hasn't changed with it? 

 

Everyone is playing zone so far this year in their base defense.  It's pretty much impossible to play the man/match coverages when you can't run receivers into "checkpoints" downfield and toss them off their routes without it being called a penalty.

 

The Bombers problem is in their front.

 

 

Agreed. We are getting almost zero pressure on the QB's. The main reason why Hamilton dominated Willy (after that first drive) and then Brohm was that they dominated in the pass rush and residually controlled the run game with that pressure and the score. 

 

Until we get some consistent pressure we could have  Roy Bennett, Rod Hill, James Jefferson, and Vince Phason back there and we'd still look silly.

 

So far, on defense, IMO the biggest disappointment has been Westerman. Has he even made a tackle yet? Is he even playing? I don't even see him when the bombers D is on the field. 

 

 

well he did have a sack and a forced fumble (which I don't remember) last game according to CFL.ca... and tackles aren't exactly a measure of DE effectiveness... while I agree he has been a little under-whelming, I wouldn't say disappointing... but what, exactly, were you expecting from him in his first 2 CFL games?

[Mr Dee]

Everybody's on Randle's case, but I'm pretty sure there was marked improvement in his play, in the 2nd game, over the 1st. He needs to acquire that same comfort zone playing LB as he had playing corner. He, and the Coaches feel he can get there.

There is also that time frame where LB meets DE, meets int. lineman, and the timing aspect of their blitzes. They're learning a new package and new personnel against some pretty good teams in their first 2 weeks. Is that just an excuse? I don't know, I think our past disappointments have eroded our patience in regards to this defence as it stands now.

I'm looking forward to better performances from this group, because I do see the effort.

[Jpan85]

For those wanting to move Randle what do you do with Johnny Adams?