[MERGED] Drew Willy Watch And Fine Discussion

[TBURGESS]

 

What I got from the post is you making statements that you can't possibly back up.

Yeah, I knew you targeted me, but on the other hand...neither can you prove it wrong.

But I ask you, why would they hold out 2 NI receivers if they were healthy?

 

Of course I can't prove it wrong.  That's the whole point.  You have no idea if they were ready to play or not, but you used them as examples of the Bombers not allowing players to compete if they were close.  There is no way of knowing either way if that's a true statement or not given the amount of info the Bombers release on injured players.  I simply called you on it.  For some reason you took that as a shot against O'Shea.

 

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread about Willy...

[Mr Dee]

Of course I can't prove it wrong.  That's the whole point.  You have no idea if they were ready to play or not, but you used them as examples of the Bombers not allowing players to compete if they were close.  There is no way of knowing either way if that's a true statement or not given the amount of info the Bombers release on injured players.  I simply called you on it.  For some reason you took that as a shot against O'Shea.

Not so fast Bucko. You didn't answer my question that frames the basis of my examples. Logically, you wouldn't hold out 2 NI receivers if they were healthy. So, if they weren't injured, why do it? Because they were close...but not close enough is my answer.

[TrueBlue]

I agree with Doug Browns assessment... If you believe Willy wasn't knocked out, I've got a bridge to sell you.  Willy saying he wasn't out, is more than a little suspect.  Either he doesn't know that he was out or he's saying what he needs to say to get back in the game.  Dude wasn't on the field with his eyes closed taking a quick nap.

 

The Bombers didn't report it as a concussion.... they reported it as an 'Upper Body Injury'.  

 

The reporters and most folks on this site saw many angles of it.  It amazes me, how different folks see the same things and come to different conclusions.  

 

Personally, I'd err on the side of caution in this case.  I don't want a repeat of Buck coming back too early and becoming broken for good.

 

If Willy didn't know he was out for a brief period, there sure would have been multiple people (the trusted med staff included) to tell him that he was.  Additionally, if not the truth, him saying he never lost consciousness, would be him trying to fool who exactly into letting him play?

[TBURGESS]

Of course I can't prove it wrong. That's the whole point. You have no idea if they were ready to play or not, but you used them as examples of the Bombers not allowing players to compete if they were close. There is no way of knowing either way if that's a true statement or not given the amount of info the Bombers release on injured players. I simply called you on it. For some reason you took that as a shot against O'Shea.

Not so fast Bucko. You didn't answer my question that frames the basis of my examples. Logically, you wouldn't hold out 2 NI receivers if they were healthy. So, if they weren't injured, why do it? Because they were close...but not close enough is my answer.

Your making stuff up. Why hold them out? Because they were injured. Period. Full stop. Close? Who knows?

One of your examples was a day away, which became a day or two, which became a week or more. Was he close one day 1? Nope. Day 2? Nope. Repeated until he finally practiced. It doesn't prove what your saying it does.

[Mr Dee]

Your making stuff up. Why hold them out? Because they were injured. Period. Full stop. Close? Who knows?

One of your examples was a day away, which became a day or two, which became a week or more. Was he close one day 1? Nope. Day 2? Nope. Repeated until he finally practiced. It doesn't prove what your saying it does.

Straight from the book of illogical thinking...TBurg style.

[TBURGESS]

 

Your making stuff up. Why hold them out? Because they were injured. Period. Full stop. Close? Who knows?

One of your examples was a day away, which became a day or two, which became a week or more. Was he close one day 1? Nope. Day 2? Nope. Repeated until he finally practiced. It doesn't prove what your saying it does.

Straight from the book of illogical thinking...TBurg style.

 

Typical Mr. Dee, You're wrong, you won't admit it and you won't let it go.

[BomberFan]

 

 

 

 

Well, that injury did happen very early in the game, I know everyone is a doctor lol and all this stuff but judging from my own past experiences with head injuries (i've had 4 concussions through the years now) Sometimes the ones that you think are guaranteed to do damage, they don't.

The fact that it happened early in the game, who knows.. head injuries are very interesting things. Sometimes like i said the ones you think are gonna do the most damage don't at all...

It's odd actually. TSN was speculating hardcore and i wish they wouldn't do that, he's gonna be out 3 4 weeks they said on the panel. Kind of makes them look like big time morons. Who knows, maybe Willy didn't even get a concussion, maybe he was just knocked out for a bit.

If you've been knocked out .. you've suffered a concussion.

That's not true. A concussion is a very specific injury and there's a lot of misinformation out there.

You also don't have to be knocked out to suffer one.

I've been in sessions done by the Dr. who works with the NHL on concussion research. He also said you heal almost instantly, the actual injury that is. You may suffer some lasting effects however. Everyone is different.

He said the most dangerous aspect is taking a second hit shortly after. As in the same day. You can recover quite quickly from one.

 

 

If you have been knocked out .. you have suffered a concussion.  Full stop.   Here's the actual medical definition for you:

 

"The formal medical definition of concussion is a clinical syndrome characterized by immediate and transient alteration in brain function, including alteration of mental status and level of consciousness, resulting from mechanical force or trauma."

 

Simply put, a concussion IS a traumatic brain injury.  It's not more specific than that.  There are a host of accompanying symptoms and those resulting symptoms can manifest themselves differently in each individual but I'd suggest that being knocked out is an "alteration of mental status and level of consciousness".  ;-)

 

 

 

I would agree with you if the knockout came as a result of his brain being rattled causing him to go unconscious. However, as a martial artist, I can tell you that there are several areas on the human body that can be struck causing a loss of consciousness that does not result in a concussion, just simply stops the blood flow to the brain temporarily. They are called pressure points and can cause a loss of consciousness and even temporary paralysis. From what I saw of the hit it sure looked like a pressure point loss of blood flow could have occurred. Two spots that render a person unconscious without causing a concussion are the side of the neck (carotid artery) and the point of the chin which also disrupts blood flow from the carotid to the brain and can cause unconsciousness (along with several other pressure points along the human body) that are not concussion related.

Have you ever seen a boxer knocked out by a body punch? Happens all the time. Think he suffered a concussion? If so, I am not sure you understand the medical terminology you are reading. Being rendered unconscious is just a common symptom of a concussion, it does not create the concussion. Your brain being slammed into your skull is what causes a concussion.

In my martial arts training, I have seen several people knocked unconscious by very slight pinpoint blows to the side of the neck. Sometime just a jab of a thumb from an inch away. They were not concussed. Knocked out....yeah...concussed...nope. Just a temporary disruption of blood flow and it's sleepy time.

 

You cannot knock someone unconscious with a body shot (liver shot), immobilize them, TKO yeah. Not render them unconscious. With your extensive MA training, you should know this. Pin-point blows to the side of the neck, really? You'd be better off using a closed fist punch, much more effective and a much higher chance of landing.

 

Edit: Punching someone in the neck is a very dangerous technique and can cause a fatality. Only use such techniques if you are in danger of losing your own life. 

[Fatty Liver]

 

 

 

 

World-renowned concussion expert says Bombers on thin ice with decision to bring Drew Willy back quickly from head injury

 

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2015/07/07/world-renowned-concussion-expert-says-bombers-on-thin-ice-with-decision-to-bring-drew-willy-back-quickly-from-head-injury

You know.. Cuz he tested willy and did all the tests on him.. Smh.

Guys getting his name out there by rocking the boat. Sure, you could argue the bombers and willy are pushing the limit but again, if he passed ALL baseline tests after hit and then days again later.. What's the issue here?

 

 

Easy to say but you have to admit that both O'Shea and Willy have been less than forthright in this matter, describing the injury only as "upper body" and avoiding using the word "concussion" at all.  Both Willy and O'Shea have said that he never lost consciousness and yet he lay motionless for at least 2 mins. and the photo clearly shows his eyes are closed.  Willy was standing in the tunnel still in full gear within 20 minutes of being laid out so if they did go through the proper concussion protocol the results were already somewhat predetermined.  In Willy's own words he was ready to return to the game for the 2nd half but the medical staff held him out.

 

As the article explains the real danger for Willy is in the next game, were even a minor tackle could lead to more serious damage.  It wasn't that many years ago that Buck Pierce returned to play in games in which he had been obviously concussed.  So yes the CFL is taking steps in the right direction but those steps are still guarded by self-interest and the traditions of professional sports and not based on the best scientific evidence.  Fans may cheer but it is Willy who has to ultimately pay the price.

 

The photo proves nothing. He could have been mid-blink when it was taken for all we know.

 

 

Pretty clear divide here. You have one side who is concerned about the health and wellbeing of the players and one side who wants nothing more than to win a football game at all costs. Maybe it's time to re-examine which side you want to be on.

 

Everyone is concerned about the health and well-being of players. The divide is people who think the doctors who have actually examined a player know what they are doing and the other side are people who think they know more than those doctors.

 

 

Are these the same Doctors that took such good care of Buck?

[Mark F]

does the league or the team have any rules about helmets?

[bluto]

You're discussing the guy who might be your franchise for the next several years to come.

 

Sit him. Be way more cautious than you think you ought to be. Let the O-Line, the blocking backs and the offence work it all out.

 

Willy could even benefit from it. Ricky Ray said that sitting out a few games in 2012 and watching the Milanovich offence from a coach's perspective is what made it finally "click" for him. And when he was healthy and ready to go, he had a run-in to the Grey Cup for the ages.

 

All of those aphorisms about the CFL season not really beginning until Labour Day have some truth to them. The West doesn't look so strong that you can't afford to eat a loss without your #1 on the field.

[17to85]

If he's healthy he's healthy why rest him? He had a chance to sit and watch the offense last year when he was hurt so that's not even a consideration to me. You can't play scared. 

[bluto]

If he's healthy he's healthy why rest him? He had a chance to sit and watch the offense last year when he was hurt so that's not even a consideration to me. You can't play scared. 

 

because if you get his head wrecked again too soon there starts to be a law of diminishing returns on this sort of thing.

 

and if you've got a potential long-term #1 in Willy (i think he can be), you use the kid gloves on him...

 

...or you wander through another long desert of Max Halls, Joey Elliots, Steven Jyleses, Alex Brinks, Justin Goltzes and who knows how many more false dawns until you get your next legit heir to Dieter.

[JuranBoldenRules]

When was his "head wrecked" to begin with?

 

If it was there's no chance in hell he would have been on the field at practice on Monday.

[17to85]

 

If he's healthy he's healthy why rest him? He had a chance to sit and watch the offense last year when he was hurt so that's not even a consideration to me. You can't play scared. 

 

because if you get his head wrecked again too soon there starts to be a law of diminishing returns on this sort of thing.

 

and if you've got a potential long-term #1 in Willy (i think he can be), you use the kid gloves on him...

 

...or you wander through another long desert of Max Halls, Joey Elliots, Steven Jyleses, Alex Brinks, Justin Goltzes and who knows how many more false dawns until you get your next legit heir to Dieter.

 

A completely healthy player could get his head wrecked too. It's playing scared and you don't need to do it. If the doctors have said Willy is healthy to play let him play. 

[Jacquie]

The Bombers have been pretty strict in treating injuries of any kind in TC and pre-season. They have not allowed players to participate even if they were close to being ready. Need examples? Kohlert and Richards. There are others. I know Willy is "more valuable" but how can anyone say they would be willing to take such a chance for such a valuable chit?

How do you know that Kohlert and Richards were close to being ready when the Bombers don't give any injury details?

We know Kohlert was almost ready because he was on the active roster for game 1 but was scratched just before the game.

[IC Khari]

HEAD WRECKED!!!!

 

[bluto]

HEAD WRECKED!!!!

 

 

 

i'm shocked you'd ever have a gif of a Rough Rider winning a fight so decidedly

[IC Khari]

Unfortunately he fell backward and got head wrecked.

[SPuDS]

World-renowned concussion expert says Bombers on thin ice with decision to bring Drew Willy back quickly from head injury

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2015/07/07/world-renowned-concussion-expert-says-bombers-on-thin-ice-with-decision-to-bring-drew-willy-back-quickly-from-head-injury

You know.. Cuz he tested willy and did all the tests on him.. Smh.

Guys getting his name out there by rocking the boat. Sure, you could argue the bombers and willy are pushing the limit but again, if he passed ALL baseline tests after hit and then days again later.. What's the issue here?

Easy to say but you have to admit that both O'Shea and Willy have been less than forthright in this matter, describing the injury only as "upper body" and avoiding using the word "concussion" at all. Both Willy and O'Shea have said that he never lost consciousness and yet he lay motionless for at least 2 mins. and the photo clearly shows his eyes are closed. Willy was standing in the tunnel still in full gear within 20 minutes of being laid out so if they did go through the proper concussion protocol the results were already somewhat predetermined. In Willy's own words he was ready to return to the game for the 2nd half but the medical staff held him out.

As the article explains the real danger for Willy is in the next game, were even a minor tackle could lead to more serious damage. It wasn't that many years ago that Buck Pierce returned to play in games in which he had been obviously concussed. So yes the CFL is taking steps in the right direction but those steps are still guarded by self-interest and the traditions of professional sports and not based on the best scientific evidence. Fans may cheer but it is Willy who has to ultimately pay the price.

The photo proves nothing. He could have been mid-blink when it was taken for all we know.

Pretty clear divide here. You have one side who is concerned about the health and wellbeing of the players and one side who wants nothing more than to win a football game at all costs. Maybe it's time to re-examine which side you want to be on.

Everyone is concerned about the health and well-being of players. The divide is people who think the doctors who have actually examined a player know what they are doing and the other side are people who think they know more than those doctors.

QFT

Yup. craziness in how people cant just believe in whats right in front of them and rather cling to the flimsy evidence provided and continue to call willy, oshea and the team and its doctors liars...

Not to mention would ANY of these above mentioned want to risk the career of their franchise QB? This early into a 1-1 season?

Stop looking for some crazy conspiracy here folks.

[SPuDS]

Your making stuff up. Why hold them out? Because they were injured. Period. Full stop. Close? Who knows?

One of your examples was a day away, which became a day or two, which became a week or more. Was he close one day 1? Nope. Day 2? Nope. Repeated until he finally practiced. It doesn't prove what your saying it does.

Straight from the book of illogical thinking...TBurg style.

are they not listed as day to day.. as in closer then farther to returning...

[Bigblue204]

I honestly can't believe people are still arguing against the doctors. lol. First, like I said earlier....the CFL is going through a law suit for this very thing. Bet your ass they are covering their own ass as closely as possible when it comes to concussions.

 

Second, you're just arguing for the sake of it now. He's starting. End of story.

[M.O.A.B.]

Maybe they will not give the whole game to Willy?

[mbrg]

I honestly can't believe people are still arguing against the doctors. lol.

 

Starting today I will be opening a brand new medical practise.

 

No examinations necessary, I will provide you with your diagnosis based on intuition and preconceived bias.

 

Super inexpensive too, as there is almost no overhead involved, what with having no medical equipment.  Or training.  Just a keyboard and the power of being an internet warrior.  Huzzah!!!

 

Now if you'll excuse me, there's a guy working in a warehouse 3 blocks away that I've never met before.  I need to go tell him he has Lupus.

[M.O.A.B.]

 

I honestly can't believe people are still arguing against the doctors. lol.

 

Starting today I will be opening a brand new medical practise.

 

No examinations necessary, I will provide you with your diagnosis based on intuition and preconceived bias.

 

Super inexpensive too, as there is almost no overhead involved, what with having no medical equipment.  Or training.  Just a keyboard and the power of being an internet warrior.  Huzzah!!!

 

Now if you'll excuse me, there's a guy working in a warehouse 3 blocks away that I've never met before.  I need to go tell him he has Lupus.

 

 

LOL.

 

I am a doctor myself. A proud graduate of Google School of Medicine.

[Fatty Liver]

Anyone know the name of the Bombers doctor?  Their website lists only Alain Couture and he is an Athletic Therapist, not a doctor.