Confederate Flag

[The Unknown Poster]

I know some of us love a good debate and this is an interesting one.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/07/politics/sc-confederate-flag-future/index.html

 

The above link is the latest in the South Carolina situation.  But I see so many people on Facebook defending the flag as some sort of symbol of Southern Pride or Southern Culture.  Like iced tea and football or whatever.

 

I actually used to have a confederate flag hanging on my wall when I was a kid.  Can you guess why? 

[bigg jay]

I know some of us love a good debate and this is an interesting one.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/07/politics/sc-confederate-flag-future/index.html

 

The above link is the latest in the South Carolina situation.  But I see so many people on Facebook defending the flag as some sort of symbol of Southern Pride or Southern Culture.  Like iced tea and football or whatever.

 

I actually used to have a confederate flag hanging on my wall when I was a kid.  Can you guess why? 

 

Dukes of Hazzard would be my guess.  My favorite Hot Wheels as a kid was the General Lee.

[bigg jay]

As far as the flag itself goes, it may have once been a legitimate source of pride & culture but now it's more commonly associated with hate & racism.  Not much different than what happened to Buddhists with the swastika.

[kelownabomberfan]

Now Dukes of Hazzard is banned apparently on the late night old show replay channels. WTF? Boys in their teen and even pre-teen years truly should not be deprived of Daisy Duke, that's just not fair.

 

 

 

[bigg jay]

They should just blur out the flag like the WWE does with the old WWF logo!

[basslicker]

Maybe if we ban the ISIS flag they'll stop killing people.

Seriously though, banning the confederate flag is a joke and fixes nothing. If anything, it will drive the wedge deeper between people. Which is what the powers that be want.

[kelownabomberfan]

Now Hercules is mad:

 

Christian actor Kevin Sorbo took to Facebook to express his anger with classic television show recycler TV Land after they pulled the “Dukes of Hazzard” off the air following the Charleston church shootings that claimed nine lives. At issue was the Confederate flag painted on the roof of the iconic “General Lee” Dodge Charger driven by the Dukes in the good ol’ boys car chase show.

Sorbo — whose claim to television fame was a brief stint as TV’s Hercules in Hercules: The Legendary Journeys — blamed the pulling of the show on the “PC crowd” calling them “nuts and insane.”

“Hey PC crowd! You guys are nuts! Insane! Crazy! Banning The Dukes of Hazard? Really? The Confederate Flag on the car? When does this stop?” Sorbo wrote. “Then get rid of Hogan’s Hero’s, The Jeffersons, All in the Family, etc. The list goes on. Chocolate is racist then. So are marshmallow’s. I am offended by everything should be the Lefts slogan.”

Sorbo continued, “By the way, we should ban the American Flag. It represents the pillage of Native Americans. Also Washington, DC??? What. George Washington owned slaves! So we need to change the name there, too.”

The pulling of the show also drew the ire of former Dukes star Jon Schneider who admittedly stands to lose income in the form of royalties due to the cancellation.

Schneider — who played “Bo Duke” —  told The Hollywood Reporter he was angry the actions of Charleston shooter Dylann Roof reflected poorly on the show in which he once starred.

“I am saddened that one angry and misguided individual can cause one of the most beloved television shows in the history of the medium to suddenly be seen in this light,” Schneider said. “Are people who grew up watching the show now suddenly racists? Will they have to go through a detox and a 12-step program to kick their Dukes habit? ‘Hi … My name is John. I’m a Dukesoholic.’”

[wpgallday1960]

Well, times change.  What was once a source of Southern pride is now a racist symbol.  You can argue it is because of the PC crowd but, but with a view of the flag in modern context, I don't see how it can't be viewed as anything but racist.

 

Similar to the team name of my favourite NFL team - Washington Redskins.  In today's society that name won't fly, it's time to change it. 

 

As a society we hopefully advance and learn to change things that need to be changed instead of clinging to potentially harmful "traditions".

[FrostyWinnipeg]

Civil War was what 4 years and it's been used for 150 years since then. I never saw a problem  with it but I'm Joe Caucasian.

 

Apparently 3 voted against it. Guessing Bo, Luke and Daisy Duke.

[Fatty Liver]

Now Dukes of Hazzard is banned apparently on the late night old show replay channels. WTF? Boys in their teen and even pre-teen years truly should not be deprived of Daisy Duke, that's just not fair.

 

 

 

 

No worries, the boys are still out there and their still raising hell.

 

[The Unknown Poster]

I have some thoughts on this subject but at this late hour let me just say this, those guys look amazing and should hve been featured in the Dukes film and spared us from that abomination we got.

When I sat in the theatre and the original theme began I had a huge smile on my face. The rest of the movie made me want to cry. And not for joy. A little piece of my childhood died that day.

[The Unknown Poster]

My perspective on this is interesting as I grew up thinking the "Battle Flag" was a symbol of southern pride and culture due to the Dukes of Hazzard.  Firstly, banning the Dukes of Hazzard is idiotic.  If we're going to ban every show that uses racial symbols then its the end of creative endeavors in television and film.  And Dukes is an interesting look at Hollywood's view of southern culture in the 80's.  It's a snapshot in time.  And it's use of the flag is rather harmless.  The horrible Dukes film actually addressed this pretty well with the Dukes painting the General Lee as in the TV show but when driving through a big city (was it New York), people were calling them racist rednecks and they couldnt understand why.   That might have been the only worthy scene in the entire steaming pile of horsecrap.

 

Anyway....here's the problem.  After doing a little research it seems the "Battle Flag" as we know it was never used by the Confederate Army,  It appeared on the canton of a Confederate Flag (The Stainless Banner and then the Bloodstained Banner) but in its current form was used by local state army's.  It didnt come into wide spread use until the KKK began using it.  Thus, undoubtedly a symbol of racism.  if people truly wanted to wave a flag from the confederacy as a symbol of southern pride, they should use the first flag (The Stars and Bars).

 

But here's the problem with that.  If you're proud of your unique southern culture, why on earth would you choose anything from the Confederacy or Civil War as a symbol of that pride?  Why would you be proud of an era where your states were willing to go to war with fellow Americans to enslave people?  Why is anyone proud of that?  The flag belongs in a museum and thats it.

 

When I see people here, white Canadians from Winnipeg talking about their "southern pride"...**** off.

[kelownabomberfan]

As a society we hopefully advance and learn to change things that need to be changed instead of clinging to potentially harmful "traditions".

 

Well, aren't we enlightened, so enlightened that you willingly jump on the Groupthink bandwagon whenever it's decided, somewhere, by someone, that something is offensive.  I would hope others aren't just as willing to unquestioningly abandon everything they have seen and heard and believed growing up because someone tells us it is suddenly "bad".  Always question authority, especially the authority of people telling you how you should think. Your comment about how we as a society need to learn to change things instead of clinging to traditions seems to be right out of Animal Farm.

 

I agree with TUP that I don't really care about the Confederate flag or what it means to Southerners.  I am from Winnipeg, so until someone starts telling me the Bison on our flag is some kind of racist symbol it really doesn't matter to me.  What I don't get is the hysterical over-reaction including banning shows like the Dukes of Hazzard from TV, because someone might see the Confederate flag on the General Lee for 4.5 seconds per show.  Who cares.  It's ridiculous.  That's just throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 

 

Dukes was a favorite show of an entire generation.  I still remember that show being the highlight of my TV week (and that just goes to show what dreck was on in that era).  The Dukes taught good morals, and right from wrong.  Boss Hogg was the greedy bad guy, and the Dukes always out-smarted him, and made sure justice was served, despite the corrupt and crooked cops they had to deal with.  We were taught greed was bad, and good always triumphs over evil.  It's not like Uncle Jesse and Roscoe sat around the kitchen table dropping N-bombs and telling racist jokes.  Far from it. 

 

Here's how I sum up political correctness: Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of fecal matter by the clean end.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

As a society we hopefully advance and learn to change things that need to be changed instead of clinging to potentially harmful "traditions".

 

Well, aren't we enlightened, so enlightened that you willingly jump on the Groupthink bandwagon whenever it's decided, somewhere, by someone, that something is offensive.  I would hope others aren't just as willing to unquestioningly abandon everything they have seen and heard and believed growing up because someone tells us it is suddenly "bad".  Always question authority, especially the authority of people telling you how you should think. Your comment about how we as a society need to learn to change things instead of clinging to traditions seems to be right out of Animal Farm.

 

I agree with TUP that I don't really care about the Confederate flag or what it means to Southerners.  I am from Winnipeg, so until someone starts telling me the Bison on our flag is some kind of racist symbol it really doesn't matter to me.  What I don't get is the hysterical over-reaction including banning shows like the Dukes of Hazzard from TV, because someone might see the Confederate flag on the General Lee for 4.5 seconds per show.  Who cares.  It's ridiculous.  That's just throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 

 

Dukes was a favorite show of an entire generation.  I still remember that show being the highlight of my TV week (and that just goes to show what dreck was on in that era).  The Dukes taught good morals, and right from wrong.  Boss Hogg was the greedy bad guy, and the Dukes always out-smarted him, and made sure justice was served, despite the corrupt and crooked cops they had to deal with.  We were taught greed was bad, and good always triumphs over evil.  It's not like Uncle Jesse and Roscoe sat around the kitchen table dropping N-bombs and telling racist jokes.  Far from it. 

 

Here's how I sum up political correctness: Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of fecal matter by the clean end.

 

I think we call agree banning Dukes is silly.  Im sure the most hardcore anti-battle flag people would agree with that.

 

But are you also suggesting that the movement to remove the battle flag from officially flying at government buildings is poltiical correctness?  or that the "sudden" wave of sentiment that it's a racist symbol is political correctness?  Because if so, I'd have to disagree.  The flag isnt racist because someone went nuts recently.  It's been racist since the wide spread use of the flag in, I believe the 30's by the KKK. 

 

The problem, I think, is that people embraced the flag back then as a "white pride" or "anti-black" or "anti-mixing" symbol and then sense that *southern drawl* "We here in the south have our own way of doing things".  I have very little belief that people in the early 20th century were flying the battle flag because they felt a sense of pride in a slower way of life, iced tea on a hot Georgia day etc... But as time has passed and beyond the civil rights movements etc, younger generations have kept on embracing the flag and their learned ideals of "Southern Pride" without really knowing what that means.

 

I strongly believe a lot of the people supporting the flag are not racist.  They are just ignorant to it's history.  I love the US.  I dont believe for a second that southern pride is or should be about the brief period they went to war in an effort to keep their slaves.  That *should* a national embarrassment, not a point of pride.  Im actually shocked government buildings were flying this thing.  What a disgrace.

 

If you love America, fly the American flag.  The battle flag is a racist symbol. 

[kelownabomberfan]

But are you also suggesting that the movement to remove the battle flag from officially flying at government buildings is poltiical correctness?

Sigh. No. That's not what I am suggesting. I said I don't give a crap about that. What I am suggesting is that people not over-react and just leap on board every single stupid suggestion that suddenly everything is "bad" and must be banned, purely to show how enlightened they are. Banning Dukes is an example of such over-reaction.

[Rich]

Just some good ol' boys

Never meanin no harm

[The Unknown Poster]

 

But are you also suggesting that the movement to remove the battle flag from officially flying at government buildings is poltiical correctness?

Sigh. No. That's not what I am suggesting. I said I don't give a crap about that. What I am suggesting is that people not over-react and just leap on board every single stupid suggestion that suddenly everything is "bad" and must be banned, purely to show how enlightened they are. Banning Dukes is an example of such over-reaction.

 

I can agree with that.  Although the larger take-away from this issue shouldnt be that Dukes of Hazzard is playing on TV Land.

[kelownabomberfan]

I can agree with that.  Although the larger take-away from this issue shouldnt be that Dukes of Hazzard is playing on TV Land.

To me, "this issue" isn't just about the Confederate flag. It's about the whole concept that because a flag/symbol is basically overnight declared offensive, by someone, that all existence of it suddenly must be wiped out. I don't agree with that. That's just "1984" stuff to me. It's the Tom Sawyer/Huck Finn debate all over again. Do you ban those books because they contain the N word, or do you want people, especially children, to read them, so that they can see how far we've come as a society since those times in terms of treatment of minorities. Especially since the essence of those books is to show how ignorant and stupid the attitudes towards black people were in that era.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

I can agree with that.  Although the larger take-away from this issue shouldnt be that Dukes of Hazzard is playing on TV Land.

To me, "this issue" isn't just about the Confederate flag. It's about the whole concept that because a flag/symbol is basically overnight declared offensive, by someone, that all existence of it suddenly must be wiped out. I don't agree with that. That's just "1984" stuff to me. It's the Tom Sawyer/Huck Finn debate all over again. Do you ban those books because they contain the N word, or do you want people, especially children, to read them, so that they can see how far we've come as a society since those times in terms of treatment of minorities. Especially since the essence of those books is to show how ignorant and stupid the attitudes towards black people were in that era.

 

Im not sure it's fair to say the flag was declared racist overnight.  It came to prominence by the KKK many decades ago.  It's been a racist symbol forever, really.  Its the big issue of the day, certainly, because of a terrible race-fueled attack at a church.  Its sort of sad that it wasnt a bigger issue before that.  But to be honest Im not really holding anyone responsible for that, it is what it is.  But for people to swiftly react and take steps to do the right thing is good, even if it is years too late.

 

About 11 or 12 years ago, back in the MSN messenger days, I made my avatar the battle flag because I was going through a Dukes resurgence (received some Dukes' merch for Christmas) and a friend who happens to be black immediately messaged me and questioned why I did that.  I said 'Oh, Dukes of Hazzard' and he said "okay...well you know it's racist right?"  And shamefully, I was ignorant to the flag's history.  So as of that day, I knew it was considered racist.  It's not a secret.  Its just one of those things that minorities put up with because they put up with it for so long, white people are blissfully ignorant to and racists pretend it's about "Southern Pride".

[Atomic]

Demanding that state legislature remove the confederate flag?  Reasonable.

 

Censoring art that contains the confederate flag?  Political correctness gone wild.  Silly, immature, and actually a huge threat to our civil liberty.

 

http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-civil-war-games-confederate-flag/

 

^----- PC Gone Wild

[The Unknown Poster]

Demanding that state legislature remove the confederate flag?  Reasonable.

 

Censoring art that contains the confederate flag?  Political correctness gone wild.  Silly, immature, and actually a huge threat to our civil liberty.

 

http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-civil-war-games-confederate-flag/

 

^----- PC Gone Wild

On one hand that seems silly since the games are about the Civil war.  On the other hand, if the games want to be accurate, they're using the wrong flag.

[Atomic]

 

Demanding that state legislature remove the confederate flag?  Reasonable.

 

Censoring art that contains the confederate flag?  Political correctness gone wild.  Silly, immature, and actually a huge threat to our civil liberty.

 

http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-civil-war-games-confederate-flag/

 

^----- PC Gone Wild

On one hand that seems silly since the games are about the Civil war.  On the other hand, if the games want to be accurate, they're using the wrong flag.

 

 

If they marched to battle under that flag, then it would be the correct flag to use, no?

[The Unknown Poster]

 

 

Demanding that state legislature remove the confederate flag?  Reasonable.

 

Censoring art that contains the confederate flag?  Political correctness gone wild.  Silly, immature, and actually a huge threat to our civil liberty.

 

http://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/25/apple-removes-civil-war-games-confederate-flag/

 

^----- PC Gone Wild

On one hand that seems silly since the games are about the Civil war.  On the other hand, if the games want to be accurate, they're using the wrong flag.

 

 

If they marched to battle under that flag, then it would be the correct flag to use, no?

 

My understanding is the battle flag was used by some regional forces so I suppose its possible they marched under the flag.  There were four (I think) official flags of the Confederate armt and the battle flag wasnt any of them.  it was used on the canton of the 3rd or 4th incarnation (The Stainless Banner which was white & The Blood Stained Banner which added a red strip to the white flag so it didnt look like the flag of surrender on the field).  The original confederate flag was the Stars & Bars which resembled the Stars & Stripes which is why they changed it.

 

The confederate flag of today didnt become a wide spread symbol of the south until the KKK began using it.  So in that regard, it was adopted widely as the confederate symbol even though that adoption has its roots in racism.  Not to mention the confederacy was born out of racism to begin with so really anyone embracing that as some sort of symbol of Southern Culture and feeling pride at that is off base.

 

I respect people who have a sense of true southern pride in the positive sense that we think about the south.  But if someone likes the Battle Flag and is NOT a racist it doesnt mean the flag is not racist.  The flag is racist.  In any sort of creative endeavor I think it's perfectly fair game.  For example, you wouldnt ban American History X because it uses the battle flag and nazi symbols because its doing so in the telling of a story.  So I think the video games are fair game.  The flip side ofcourse is, Apple makes the rules so they have the right to choose what they want on their platforms.

[Atomic]

Regardless, I guess it doesn't matter.  I agree the flag has a racist meaning.  But I don't agree with (and never will agree with) removing any and all art that references the flag.  I think we're on the same page on this one.

[The Unknown Poster]

Regardless, I guess it doesn't matter.  I agree the flag has a racist meaning.  But I don't agree with (and never will agree with) removing any and all art that references the flag.  I think we're on the same page on this one.

I would agree.  The Dukes of Hazzard thing is utterly stupid.  And so is Apple.  I wonder if FB will move to ban it?  I could sort of see that to a degree.  I find it disheartening to see so many people "embracing" it.  I prefer under censoring as opposed to over censoring but anything "hateful" is fair game for booting.  Using the Battle Flag in innocuous or historic ways should be allowed.  If someone wants to proclaim to the world their ignorant or racist views, then let them do so...and suffer the consequences.

 

perspective employers check social media all the time now.  If I saw someone draped in the battle flag and proclaiming their southern pride, I'd toss their resume into the trash just for fear of their level of stupidity.