Pocket passing QB is so yesterday

[bluto]

odd... i would describe Ray (at this stage of his career these last few seasons) and Harris as almost prototype CFL Pocket Passers...

[Noeller]

odd... i would describe Ray (at this stage of his career these last few seasons) and Harris as almost prototype CFL Pocket Passers...

You must understand that because we lost, everyone and everything about this team sucks.......................apparently......

[JuranBoldenRules]

odd... i would describe Ray (at this stage of his career these last few seasons) and Harris as almost prototype CFL Pocket Passers...

 

Same for BLM and Reilly.  The Eskimos move the pocket a lot and have a lot of designed QB run plays, but Reilly isn't doing a lot of improvising.

 

Really I think this is backwards.  With the amount of stuff that QB's have to run through pre-snap now, if you can't throw from the pocket you just won't last.  People complain about guys locking into their first read, but 95% of the reading of the defense is done by the time the QB has the ball.  There are guys who scramble, but they can throw from the pocket too, although a guy like Collaros really struggles when teams keep him in there all night, the Montreal game is a good example.  His arm isn't in the same league as Willy, Reilly, Harris, BLM.  I also think that all QB's can run now.  There isn't a QB in the CFL that is a pure pocket passer, even Glenn and Ray will take off and run for a first down a couple times a game to keep a defense honest.  20 years ago QB's were more scrambler or pocket passer.

[Doublezero]

 

odd... i would describe Ray (at this stage of his career these last few seasons) and Harris as almost prototype CFL Pocket Passers...

 

Same for BLM and Reilly.  The Eskimos move the pocket a lot and have a lot of designed QB run plays, but Reilly isn't doing a lot of improvising.

 

Really I think this is backwards.  With the amount of stuff that QB's have to run through pre-snap now, if you can't throw from the pocket you just won't last.  People complain about guys locking into their first read, but 95% of the reading of the defense is done by the time the QB has the ball.  There are guys who scramble, but they can throw from the pocket too, although a guy like Collaros really struggles when teams keep him in there all night, the Montreal game is a good example.  His arm isn't in the same league as Willy, Reilly, Harris, BLM.  I also think that all QB's can run now.  There isn't a QB in the CFL that is a pure pocket passer, even Glenn and Ray will take off and run for a first down a couple times a game to keep a defense honest.  20 years ago QB's were more scrambler or pocket passer.

 

Of course you can move the launch point. That's one of the things I noticed Gene Dahlquist assessing and correcting all through training camp: how do the Bombers QBs set up, do they have the correct angles and footwork before winding up and spinning the ball while on the run? Lulay, Reilly, Collaros, Bo-Levi are especially adept at throwing accurately from a roll-out on the run. Based on seeing very limited reps Cato and Marve seems to have that ability too. Or you can tuck it in and run. You're a dual threat. And its fun to watch. But we have designed our offence specifically for our #1 and #2 QBs who are cut from the same cloth. Doug Brown described the kind of QB the Bombers have designed their offence around. In his Free Press column yesterday he said, referring to the pass blocking being afforded to Drew Willy: "When you have a relatively immobile passer at the helm of the ship, who only plays at an elite level when given sufficient time in the pocket, you can’t afford to roll the dice on your protection."

[Bigblue204]

I'd crap on the oline more if I didn't already see this play out on 2 other teams. Solid oline talent, turned to mediocre or worse talent, one thing in common...a Marcel lead offense.

Also it clearly doesn't matter what we say about how well Willy playing. His stats speak for themselves, but the op can't or just won't recognize that football is a team game and there are other people who have made mistakes. On other teams the op seems to understand that. But for the bombers it's all on Willy.

Two pages now, should probably start another thread about how Willy just can't win and its all on him....

[bearpants]

And yet, of all active quarterbacks, Willy has third most yards rushing, is third in average yards per rush and has the third longest run of any QB in the league this season  .. 

 

There's a difference between a 'pocket passer' and a guy who looks to pass first and run second .. Willy can and does extend plays with his legs.  He's done it time and again over the season and a half he's been our starter.

 

I've always felt that Willy is an underrated runner... sure he's not a natural scrambler, but he moves well when he has to... I wish we would design a few more plays that get him moving outside the pocket and give him the opportunity to make some plays... who's job is that again? 

[bearpants]

I'd crap on the oline more if I didn't already see this play out on 2 other teams. Solid oline talent, turned to mediocre or worse talent, one thing in common...a Marcel lead offense.

Also it clearly doesn't matter what we say about how well Willy playing. His stats speak for themselves, but the op can't or just won't recognize that football is a team game and there are other people who have made mistakes. On other teams the op seems to understand that. But for the bombers it's all on Willy.

Two pages now, should probably start another thread about how Willy just can't win and its all on him....

 

It's tough to push an agenda when you view things rationally and objectively   

[BomberDynasty]

It'll be interesting to compare Winnipeg vs BC offenses this Thursday. It's no coincidence that the most dynamic offences in the CFL are run by scambler style QBs: Collaros, Mitchell, Lulay, Harris. Guys who can make plays with their feet as well as via the toss. It's exciting to watch. These teams: Calgary, Ham, BC and Argos also all are coached by ex-QBs. Meanwhile in Winnipeg, (where our coaching and management braintrust comes from the D side of the ball) we are plodding along with an offence designed around a pair of 3-step drop pocket passers in Willy and Brohm. Fans are calling for a more dynamic QB such as Robert Marve because our offensive structure, built around a limited style of QB, has basically failed. Now is the time to re-design the offence to accommodate more of a Bo-Levi or Collaros-Lulay type of QB so Marve can play a bit and give the fans some excitement. I say go for it now even if it means abandoning an offensive structure that's better suited for our #1 and #2 QBs. After all, this is the wide-open CFL. Why should we have to wait til next year and the inevitable changes that will come from another losing season, because Bomber brass were too stubborn to switch away from an old-school offence that's designed around a style of QB that's essentially ill-suited for the CFL?

 

 

The problem is that for decades now the Bomber organization upper management has had a dislike for scrambling offenses or mobile QB's. The pattern we observe is so ingrained across a period where there were so many different head coaches and offensive coordinators that it must be mandated from certain members of the BOD.

 

In my opinion Winnipeg's problem of having consistently lousy teams for the last 25 years is a testament to the failure of this BOD governance model. Governments are not capable of running organizations with excellence. Politicians are known just to provide the minimum level of service that is acceptable to prevent mass revolt - nothing more. The BOD has become nothing more than an old boys club, and there are no new ideas or different strategies being applied to run the organization. It is top-down, politically run, and completely dysfunctional. As long as the bills get paid, I don't think they really care that much about quality or winning - they are used to having a fan base that comes out even when they are not winning.

 

Wade Miller is just a slightly more likeable PR-friendly version of Bauer that brings all the high-level sophistication of a Booster Juice stand to the organization. (Think Corky from "Life Goes On") His role is exclusively to keep the wheels on and the money flowing in through the ongoing losses.

 

Despite some differences in strategy, Walters is much more like Taman than he is like a Roy Shivers as he can't consistently find good import players. Things are still not going in the right direction there.

 

Mike OShea is Mike Kelley version 2.0 minus some of the Drama (Lets just not think about that one at all!)

 

Bellefeuille is not any better than Crowton when you look at the bottom line (scoring TDs) where things actually count

 

Willy is a Buck Pierce clone, and behind that O-Line, even after the so-called improvements this year, his career will be much shorter than one would expect

 

etc, etc, etc.

The more things change, the more they stay the same, and the losing ways keep rolling along... This isn't rebuilding, and this team will not be markedly better in another year, two years, or even 5 years. It is "rinse and repeat" mode to the max.

 

Drop the BOD governance model, get an owner who cares, and then we are talking...

[blitzmore]

 

It'll be interesting to compare Winnipeg vs BC offenses this Thursday. It's no coincidence that the most dynamic offences in the CFL are run by scambler style QBs: Collaros, Mitchell, Lulay, Harris. Guys who can make plays with their feet as well as via the toss. It's exciting to watch. These teams: Calgary, Ham, BC and Argos also all are coached by ex-QBs. Meanwhile in Winnipeg, (where our coaching and management braintrust comes from the D side of the ball) we are plodding along with an offence designed around a pair of 3-step drop pocket passers in Willy and Brohm. Fans are calling for a more dynamic QB such as Robert Marve because our offensive structure, built around a limited style of QB, has basically failed. Now is the time to re-design the offence to accommodate more of a Bo-Levi or Collaros-Lulay type of QB so Marve can play a bit and give the fans some excitement. I say go for it now even if it means abandoning an offensive structure that's better suited for our #1 and #2 QBs. After all, this is the wide-open CFL. Why should we have to wait til next year and the inevitable changes that will come from another losing season, because Bomber brass were too stubborn to switch away from an old-school offence that's designed around a style of QB that's essentially ill-suited for the CFL?

 

 

The problem is that for decades now the Bomber organization upper management has had a dislike for scrambling offenses or mobile QB's. The pattern we observe is so ingrained across a period where there were so many different head coaches and offensive coordinators that it must be mandated from certain members of the BOD.

 

In my opinion Winnipeg's problem of having consistently lousy teams for the last 25 years is a testament to the failure of this BOD governance model. Governments are not capable of running organizations with excellence. Politicians are known just to provide the minimum level of service that is acceptable to prevent mass revolt - nothing more. The BOD has become nothing more than an old boys club, and there are no new ideas or different strategies being applied to run the organization. It is top-down, politically run, and completely dysfunctional. As long as the bills get paid, I don't think they really care that much about quality or winning - they are used to having a fan base that comes out even when they are not winning.

 

Wade Miller is just a slightly more likeable PR-friendly version of Bauer that brings all the high-level sophistication of a Booster Juice stand to the organization. (Think Corky from "Life Goes On") His role is exclusively to keep the wheels on and the money flowing in through the ongoing losses.

 

Despite some differences in strategy, Walters is much more like Taman than he is like a Roy Shivers as he can't consistently find good import players. Things are still not going in the right direction there.

 

Mike OShea is Mike Kelley version 2.0 minus some of the Drama (Lets just not think about that one at all!)

 

Bellefeuille is not any better than Crowton when you look at the bottom line (scoring TDs) where things actually count

 

Willy is a Buck Pierce clone, and behind that O-Line, even after the so-called improvements this year, his career will be much shorter than one would expect

 

etc, etc, etc.

The more things change, the more they stay the same, and the losing ways keep rolling along... This isn't rebuilding, and this team will not be markedly better in another year, two years, or even 5 years. It is "rinse and repeat" mode to the max.

 

Drop the BOD governance model, get an owner who cares, and then we are talking...

 

You have got to be joking...hardly any of your ramblings are true. Is that you Nate?

[Logan007]

 

It'll be interesting to compare Winnipeg vs BC offenses this Thursday. It's no coincidence that the most dynamic offences in the CFL are run by scambler style QBs: Collaros, Mitchell, Lulay, Harris. Guys who can make plays with their feet as well as via the toss. It's exciting to watch. These teams: Calgary, Ham, BC and Argos also all are coached by ex-QBs. Meanwhile in Winnipeg, (where our coaching and management braintrust comes from the D side of the ball) we are plodding along with an offence designed around a pair of 3-step drop pocket passers in Willy and Brohm. Fans are calling for a more dynamic QB such as Robert Marve because our offensive structure, built around a limited style of QB, has basically failed. Now is the time to re-design the offence to accommodate more of a Bo-Levi or Collaros-Lulay type of QB so Marve can play a bit and give the fans some excitement. I say go for it now even if it means abandoning an offensive structure that's better suited for our #1 and #2 QBs. After all, this is the wide-open CFL. Why should we have to wait til next year and the inevitable changes that will come from another losing season, because Bomber brass were too stubborn to switch away from an old-school offence that's designed around a style of QB that's essentially ill-suited for the CFL?

 

 

The problem is that for decades now the Bomber organization upper management has had a dislike for scrambling offenses or mobile QB's. The pattern we observe is so ingrained across a period where there were so many different head coaches and offensive coordinators that it must be mandated from certain members of the BOD.

 

In my opinion Winnipeg's problem of having consistently lousy teams for the last 25 years is a testament to the failure of this BOD governance model. Governments are not capable of running organizations with excellence. Politicians are known just to provide the minimum level of service that is acceptable to prevent mass revolt - nothing more. The BOD has become nothing more than an old boys club, and there are no new ideas or different strategies being applied to run the organization. It is top-down, politically run, and completely dysfunctional. As long as the bills get paid, I don't think they really care that much about quality or winning - they are used to having a fan base that comes out even when they are not winning.

 

Wade Miller is just a slightly more likeable PR-friendly version of Bauer that brings all the high-level sophistication of a Booster Juice stand to the organization. (Think Corky from "Life Goes On") His role is exclusively to keep the wheels on and the money flowing in through the ongoing losses.

 

Despite some differences in strategy, Walters is much more like Taman than he is like a Roy Shivers as he can't consistently find good import players. Things are still not going in the right direction there.

 

Mike OShea is Mike Kelley version 2.0 minus some of the Drama (Lets just not think about that one at all!)

 

Bellefeuille is not any better than Crowton when you look at the bottom line (scoring TDs) where things actually count

 

Willy is a Buck Pierce clone, and behind that O-Line, even after the so-called improvements this year, his career will be much shorter than one would expect

 

etc, etc, etc.

The more things change, the more they stay the same, and the losing ways keep rolling along... This isn't rebuilding, and this team will not be markedly better in another year, two years, or even 5 years. It is "rinse and repeat" mode to the max.

 

Drop the BOD governance model, get an owner who cares, and then we are talking...

 

What the f.....

 

Are you high?!?!

 

- The BOD don't micromanage this team.  This team is recruited by Walters and his team.

- I'd take Wade Miller over Lyle Bauer any day.

- O'Shea is nothing like Kelley...like...AT ALL.

- As much as I hate MB, he's still way better then Crowton who was the worst I've probably seen.  At least MB is mediocre.

- Willy is NOTHING like Buck.  Marve is more like Buck then Willy.  Buck was not a pocket passer.

 

Please tell me you're just messing around and being really sarcastic.

[17to85]

 

Please tell me you're just messing around and being really sarcastic.

 

Sometimes it's hard to tell when someone is actually trolling or if they're just naturally stupid. 

[Fan Boy]

That Dynasty talking stuff is either someone who is jerking on the line or someone so bitter their eyes are tearing up so they can't see. Their memory is not so good either. The bad old days were bad.

 

The Kelly era offense was so bad my wife at her first football game ever asked me why the the "ball throwing guy" took a hand off instead of standing back like the other team. She thought it would give him more time to find someone to throw to.  The first game ever and she saw how screwed up the team was.  She also asked why that guy was running along behind the line instead of downfield. I had no answer for that.

[Jpan85]

Elite QB win

Middling QB are .500

Bad quarterbacks are losers

 

No matter if you stand in the pocket or scramble

The best quarterbacks in CFL history dont lean either way as a group

[Logan007]

I don't lol very often, what with not being a teenage girl (sorry boys), but lol at the idea that any miniscule part of this offence is designed around Brian Brohm.

What!?!?  Aww.

[mbrg]

 

I don't lol very often, what with not being a teenage girl (sorry boys), but lol at the idea that any miniscule part of this offence is designed around Brian Brohm.

What!?!?  Aww.

 

 

Okay, I may have been a bit hasty.  I'm open to change.

 

 

But first things first - bomberdynasty has another post out there somewhere, I've got to find it.  This stuff is gold Jerry.

[HardCoreBlue]

 

 

Please tell me you're just messing around and being really sarcastic.

 

Sometimes it's hard to tell when someone is actually trolling or if they're just naturally stupid. 

 

My experience is it's usually both.

[Logan007]

 

 

I don't lol very often, what with not being a teenage girl (sorry boys), but lol at the idea that any miniscule part of this offence is designed around Brian Brohm.

What!?!?  Aww.

 

 

Okay, I may have been a bit hasty.  I'm open to change.

 

 

But first things first - bomberdynasty has another post out there somewhere, I've got to find it.  This stuff is gold Jerry.

 

[SPuDS]

I don't lol very often, what with not being a teenage girl (sorry boys), but lol at the idea that any miniscule part of this offence is designed around Brian Brohm.

What!?!?  Aww.

 

Okay, I may have been a bit hasty.  I'm open to change.

 

 

But first things first - bomberdynasty has another post out there somewhere, I've got to find it.  This stuff is gold Jerry.

Was it the cronyism rant of a few days ago? Seems cut from the same cloth..

[James]

That Dynasty talking stuff is either someone who is jerking on the line or someone so bitter their eyes are tearing up so they can't see. Their memory is not so good either. The bad old days were bad.

 

The Kelly era offense was so bad my wife at her first football game ever asked me why the the "ball throwing guy" took a hand off instead of standing back like the other team. She thought it would give him more time to find someone to throw to.  The first game ever and she saw how screwed up the team was.  She also asked why that guy was running along behind the line instead of downfield. I had no answer for that.

That's hilarious about the Kelly regime.... I have no idea what I would say either if my wife did the same..... thanks for that laugh

[LeBird]

 

 

 

I like how for all intents and purposes, you just eliminated Willy from the equation to push your agenda further ahead despite the fact that he's been equally productive to pretty much every single one of those quarterbacks.

 

Willy is throwing touchdowns at a higher clip than Collaros and Bo Levi, he's throwing interceptions less often than those two AND Harris, he's completing a higher rate of his passes than every one of them but Harris and on top of that, his yardage per attempt is the highest of the bunch.

 

You can keep pushing your agenda all you want, QB talent can succeed in this league in many different ways. As long as the talent is there, the production can be as well. Willy's biggest issue right now is that his play caller blows. But please ... keep telling me more about how Drew Willy is not the "right type of CFL QB"

I guess if wanting to see the Bombers finally start to win is an agenda, then I have an agenda.

 

 

It's pretty obvious you have an agenda. You're not quite at the point of making stuff up, but whenever Brohm is brought up, you make excuses for his lackluster play and whenever Willy is brought up, not only do you downplay his abilities, you go as far as padding your valid points with a bunch of nonsense just to try and get extra jabs in at the guy.

 

I literally saw you downplay Willy's numbers in the pouring rain and criticize him for not being productive and then when someone pointed out that he was playing in a torrential downpour, you ignored it entirely.

Then the next day, when talking about Brohm's performance in the same game, you let him off the hook because of the weather even though it wasn't even raining when he played.

 

If that's not having an agenda, I don't know what is.

 

On top of that - I keep seeing you mention "exciting" ... is Ricky Ray not exciting? Because that's the mold Drew Willy fits into. Is he Ricky Ray? No, but he's getting there and that's the style of pro QB he is. I feel like you don't like Willy because he doesn't dance around and get you out of your seat. The most exciting thing to me is winning, I don't care how the guy gets there to do it and the truth is, Drew Willy can and will be a winning QB in this league when they give him the best possible chance to succeed (which will basically be when our OC stops making dogshit play calls)

 

I'd like to see Drew Willy succeed. But right now I believe he's over-rated, and probably not as good as you think. And so I disagree with you, partly because I think he has already been given every opportunity to succeed. Like I said, it'll be interesting to watch Winnipeg vs BC and Willy vs Lulay on Thursday. Tedford, an exQB, had them practicing a high-tempo offence right thru training camp. So far this season that is much more fun to watch than anything Bombers have come up with, designed, as I said, around the 3-step drop pocket style passer.

 

One thing that's being forgotten here is Willy has not been getting the protection the other quarterbacks are getting. Look at the first game. He got reasonably good protection or at least time to get the play off and he was as exciting as any. In the other four games the Oline was not good but Willy still managed to get get some decent stats considering. Given reasonable time he can do serious damage. 

[iso_55]

After Drew Willy's performance last night, I  hope this dumb ass thread shrivels up & dies. 

[James]

Drew is easily our best QB since Khari... I'm not sure how anyone in the entire city cant see that.

[Logan007]

Drew is easily our best QB since Khari... I'm not sure how anyone in the entire city cant see that.

YEAH YOU GUYS!!!   Psshh...

 

That was for Mr. Perfect.  Anyone know where he is BTW?

[Noeller]

Drew is easily our best QB since Khari... I'm not sure how anyone in the entire city cant see that.

YEAH YOU GUYS!!! Psshh...

That was for Mr. Perfect. Anyone know where he is BTW?

He was on my Twitter feed last night raving about DW...

[Doublezero]

Full marks to Drew Willy for his outstanding play last night.