Blue Jays

[wbbfan]

3 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Tear-downs are overrated.  I don't see the need in baseball for a tear-down.  You can build without blowing up your team.

Agree some what. I think in some rare cases its warranted. When a core gets old and a team hasnt been drafting well and has no young MLBers of note and or guys close to the majors. A side from that I dont think trading all stars for packages of low ball prospects is a good way to build any thing but a store of high draft picks. 

[Jpan85]

25 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Tear-downs are overrated.  I don't see the need in baseball for a tear-down.  You can build without blowing up your team.

Yeah ask Cubs fans how overrated tear downs are or Astro fans. Yankees too.  Phillies have done it right also and are not  far off. 

[Jpan85]

27 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

The injury riddled jays have dug back to .500 after half of april was an utter disaster. If they played .500 in april and stayed healthy wed be in great shape. 

I would be in favor of a build based around young MLBers. With in the donaldson and young pitchers window. Not a rebuild as in trading for blue chip high A ball prospects. Especially not trading guys like stro, sanchez etc. If they had been more patient and not tried to rush with the mega trades for vets a few years ago we would be the envy of the league. 

No you keep Sanchez and Stroman. You trade trade Estrada and Happ you can get a couple top 50 prospects out of them.

[Atomic]

39 minutes ago, Jpan85 said:

Yeah ask Cubs fans how overrated tear downs are or Astro fans. Yankees too.  Phillies have done it right also and are not  far off. 

Cubs never tore anything meaningful down.  They were horrible, then they hired Theo Epstein who made a series of excellent draft picks and signings.  There was no tear down involved.

[Jpan85]

20 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Cubs never tore anything meaningful down.  They were horrible, then they hired Theo Epstein who made a series of excellent draft picks and signings.  There was no tear down involved.

They made it to the post season in both 2007 and 2008 winning the Central both years. Then after they could not get it done the next 3 years a they tore it down. They had a old line up full of guys that where a year or two past their prime that they held on to trying to get into the post season like Alfonso Soriano, Derek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Marlon Byrd, Kosuke Fukudome, Ryan Dempster, Carlos Zambrano, Ted Lilly. They also had one of the worst minor leagues in baseball. Theo and Jed came  in and completely tore it down it down and start the building process.

 

[bustamente]

Jays had a nice little streak this past week but they are not even close to being a contender this year even when they get some of the injured players back, Shapiro will tear this team down top to bottom you as fans will suffer for a few years then hopefully for the fans the team will rise back up as a contender, don't know if the ticket buying public will be on board but this is the way to do it. 

[Atomic]

26 minutes ago, Jpan85 said:

They had a old line up full of guys that where a year or two past their prime that they held on to trying to get into the post season like Alfonso Soriano, Derek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Marlon Byrd, Kosuke Fukudome, Ryan Dempster, Carlos Zambrano, Ted Lilly. They also had one of the worst minor leagues in baseball.

I don't see the Blue Jays currently being in a comparable situation to the one you describe

[Jpan85]

They are the oldest team in the league. They peaked last year why wait for two year of decline when you can speed up the rebuild.

[Jpan85]

Not a fan a of the Jays actually really don't care for them much so I hope they do hold out hope and be .500 or team or worse for the next 3-4 years.

[Atomic]

2 minutes ago, Jpan85 said:

They are the oldest team in the league. They peaked last year why wait for two year of decline when you can speed up the rebuild.

I don't think they are, but they're probably close.  Get rid of Grilli and Bautista and they would be right in the middle in terms of average age.  They also have some good young players.  I don't dispute that they need change but I just don't see the need for a total tear-down.  Like I said earlier tear-downs are overrated.  For every team that you can say did a tear-down to eventually win the World Series I can show you ten teams that didn't have to.

[wbbfan]

3 hours ago, Jpan85 said:

No you keep Sanchez and Stroman. You trade trade Estrada and Happ you can get a couple top 50 prospects out of them.

Yeah would have to be nuts to trade either of them. I think you start at the top of the old long in the tooth types (bautista) and trade your way down. Getting young guys who are in the majors or as close to the majors as possible. And trade till you are at a point where trading more is a move leveraging 1 year more or less. Estrada would be about the end of the group of guys id want to move. Though he may be the guy that brings the best return of what you would want to move. 

[bustamente]

3 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Yeah would have to be nuts to trade either of them. I think you start at the top of the old long in the tooth types (bautista) and trade your way down. Getting young guys who are in the majors or as close to the majors as possible. And trade till you are at a point where trading more is a move leveraging 1 year more or less. Estrada would be about the end of the group of guys id want to move. Though he may be the guy that brings the best return of what you would want to move. 

Add Tulo and Martin in the first wave to go, as far as pitchers i'm probably in the minority but when it comes to pitching any pitcher over 30 goes and  any under stay rebuild will take 2-3 years and the under 30 guys will be hitting their stride.

[wbbfan]

2 minutes ago, bustamente said:

Add Tulo and Martin in the first wave to go, as far as pitchers i'm probably in the minority but when it comes to pitching any pitcher over 30 goes and  any under stay rebuild will take 2-3 years and the under 30 guys will be hitting their stride.

Probably. Idk if either would fetch that much at this point. Martin maybe they keep as a mentor as much as for production.

I think that would leave us with like 3 pitchers total. If you are talking hard throwing high pay right handed starter i think you have a case. That kind of guy could lose it quick fast and in a hurry. Lefties, relievers and finesse pitchers tend to have the shelf life of an MRE. Even after they go bad they still go down for a fist full of years. 

If you are gonna fire sale that many guys you will have to be taking Low a / high A / rushed prep school players / low ceiling college guys. Low up side or low percentile chance to ever play in the majors. Not worth the risk imop. Better to slowly sell over a year and have the aura of building rather then re building. Teams that rebuild go into free agency having to spend elite money on guys like BJ ryan, and selling the farm for post prime vets. 

[bustamente]

Pillar being investigated and Bautista bat flip after a home run, the Jays are back.

[bearpants]

On 5/16/2017 at 2:00 PM, Jpan85 said:

They are the oldest team in the league. They peaked last year why wait for two year of decline when you can speed up the rebuild.

I think you're bang on here... Look at the core of this team - Bautista, Martin, Tulo, Donaldson - this team is at a win-now age and if they are not winning now, why keep the status quo... I think they have a great foundation in starting pitching with Sanchez and Stroman... and those two should be the only untouchables right now... I guess they could see how this season works out... but if it ends up being .500 ball and no playoffs, it's time for the rebuild...

[wbbfan]

On 5/18/2017 at 9:40 AM, bustamente said:

Pillar being investigated and Bautista bat flip after a home run, the Jays are back.

I hate baseball fights soo much. Same with basketball. Every one acts like kids and thinks they are UFC. The bat flip stuff is stupid too. Cant count how many times i saw david ortiz do the same. Dont like it? Dont let em hit a homer. 

Jays have called up Anthony alford. The jays no #3 rank prospect and back end of the top 100 in baseball. He split time between football and baseball, fought injuries and didnt have a great year last year. Hes crushing so far early in this season but hes soo raw. I hate seeing a guy like him rushed up from AA. 

Hes very athletic, hits well, and is showing projectable pop in his bat. Plus hes a terror on the bases. Suchs pompey is hurt this would be a good spot for him to get another look. 

[Taynted_Fayth]

Healthiest our line ups been all year, and Happ set to return on thursday (possibly) 

considering how we started, being only 4 games back of .500 is pretty good.  we "should" be able to spank the reds as well

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, Taynted_Fayth said:

Healthiest our line ups been all year, and Happ set to return on thursday (possibly) 

considering how we started, being only 4 games back of .500 is pretty good.  we "should" be able to spank the reds as well

Now if we could just stay healthy, and stop running out 5+ pitchers a game

 

[Taynted_Fayth]

A spanking indeed;

 

[Taynted_Fayth]

 

how about those bats this series!?  1 game back from .500!

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, Taynted_Fayth said:

 

how about those bats this series!?  1 game back from .500!

Suddenly every one is mashing. No deficit is too great when you can pile up the runs in streaks like this. What id do for us to have pitching get this hot...

[Taynted_Fayth]

1 minute ago, wbbfan said:

Suddenly every one is mashing. No deficit is too great when you can pile up the runs in streaks like this. What id do for us to have pitching get this hot...

yeah pitching is still a concern. I'm not so worried about Estrada and Strowman in games 1 and 4 vs the yankees coming up but Liriano and Biagini in games 2 and 3 could see us get lit up pretty bad.  hoping to come away at least 2-2

[wbbfan]

34 minutes ago, Taynted_Fayth said:

yeah pitching is still a concern. I'm not so worried about Estrada and Strowman in games 1 and 4 vs the yankees coming up but Liriano and Biagini in games 2 and 3 could see us get lit up pretty bad.  hoping to come away at least 2-2

Yeah. I wish they had shut down sanchez properly last year. those 3 at 100% a top our rotation is a huge difference maker. 

[Jpan85]

4 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Yeah. I wish they had shut down sanchez properly last year. those 3 at 100% a top our rotation is a huge difference maker. 

Sanchez injuries this year have nothing to do with the amount of innings he threw last year.

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, Jpan85 said:

Sanchez injuries this year have nothing to do with the amount of innings he threw last year.

finger injuries like his this year are very common with a young pitcher going from throwing more pitches in a year then they have in several years. Iirc he was close to all his pro innings tossed last year alone. Especially with his hard breaking stuff. These guys still do a ton of maintenance innings between seasons, and pile on the WBC.