Taking a realistic look at the Bombers record in the last 24 seasons

[blueandgoldguy]

 

Going to be hard to just carry on like nothing is wrong if we are 3-15 or 4-14 at the end of the season. May not be much of a blow up as there's not much there to begin with.

There is nothing there because they keep firing everyone every couple years. These guys may not be the ideal people, but give them a chance to try and build things up a bit before we make that move. Fire them all now and it's right back to square one with no qbs no scouting department and no decent canadian talent on the team prolonging the misery even further. You don't want to hear it but patience is needed now more than ever. 

 

Wrong.  Hamilton fired Marcel after the 2011 season, fired Cortez after the 2012 season and hired Austin who has taken them to back-to-back Grey Cups and are favorites to return to the Grey Cup.  

 

Edmonton made several changes in recent years to their coaching staff and GM the past half-decade and they now have a coach in Chris Jones and GM in Ed Hervey who have made them a winner and Grey Cup contender the past few seasons.

 

If the Bombers continue to struggle the rest of the season, O'shea will be fired and deservedly so.  It's shouldn't be that hard to make the playoffs when 6 of 9 teams make it and one of those teams is an expansion team.  With regards to Walters, he will be given his three years and if the Bombers fail to make the playoffs next year he will be fired and deservedly so.  I don't think there is a GM in the history of the CFL that has survived 3 consecutive seasons with no playoffs. This would not in any way effect the past talent accumulation of the team, in other words NOT back to square one.  If the talent is there, then it will be kept on the team.  IF it is lacking, as it was under Joe Mack, then there will a purge, but that should not be construed as a setback for the franchise as keeping on an incompetent GM is simply delaying the inevitable

 

Waiting year after year, hoping a struggling GM and coach will somehow get it right if given enough time flies in the face of logic.  Ignore the past at your own peril.

[blueandgoldguy]

 

 

 

Going to be hard to just carry on like nothing is wrong if we are 3-15 or 4-14 at the end of the season. May not be much of a blow up as there's not much there to begin with.

 You don't want to hear it but patience is needed now more than ever. 

 

Oh, I hear you...but that particular phrasing is giving me multiple flashbacks...

 

but we haven't been patient at all. Weren't patient with Reinbold which makes sense, weren't patient with Richie or Daley or Berry or Kelly or Mack or anyone. For too long it's been about winning a Grey Cup right ******* now. If only they'd won that 01 game, a lot of grief would have been saved. 

 

Richie was the fault of an egomaniacal Bauer.  Berry had lost the room and had to be fired.  Daley was incompetent and shouldn't have been hired to begin with.  Kelly was a disaster to the present and future of the franchise and couldn't have been kept on in 2010 even without the girlfriend incident.  Bombers were patient with Mack after the 2012 season.  Many private owners would have fired him then.  Instead the organization kept him on and it became very apparent he could not accumulate the pieces necessary to even be a .500 team (specifically at QB and the O-line) in 2013 hence the firing.

[Noeller]

I'm good with the whole 3 Year Plan thing. Gotta give these guys time continue building. With Drew Willy healthy and playing, this team is as good as anyone. I truly believe that.

[blueandgoldguy]

Folks who want to keep O'Shea on if he doesn't make the playoffs this year don't seem to understand the lessons that history teaches us.

 

The list of rookie HC's who didn't make the playoffs in their first 2 years who didn't get fired has to be very small. 

 

The list of rookie HC's who didn't make the playoffs in their first 2 years and then went on to become good to great HC's is equally short. 

 

I'm not going to go through all the HC's in the last 20 years for all the teams, but I can tell you that the first and the second list contain exactly zero members when it comes to Bomber HC's in the last 20 years. Maybe someone who thinks we should keep O'Shea can go through the rest of the league and let me know if either group has ever happened in the CFL in the last 20 or so years.

Exactly.  17 to 85 seems to have this erroneous reasoning that by keeping a Berry or Mack with the organization for a sufficient period of time it will bear fruit in the form of long-term success.  In reality, patience will not be rewarded by tolerating mediocrity year after year - it will just result in more mediocrity.  Every team in the league won't tolerate losing for very long (proven if you take the time to review each team's history) - they will fire the personnel responsible for the team's underachievement and move on to new coaching/management.

 

The Bombers have been mediocre for so long because they have hired inexperienced/inept coaches and management the past decade plus.  It has nothing to do with not showing adequate patience for the inept coaching/personnel.

[Noeller]

 

Folks who want to keep O'Shea on if he doesn't make the playoffs this year don't seem to understand the lessons that history teaches us.

 

The list of rookie HC's who didn't make the playoffs in their first 2 years who didn't get fired has to be very small. 

 

The list of rookie HC's who didn't make the playoffs in their first 2 years and then went on to become good to great HC's is equally short. 

 

I'm not going to go through all the HC's in the last 20 years for all the teams, but I can tell you that the first and the second list contain exactly zero members when it comes to Bomber HC's in the last 20 years. Maybe someone who thinks we should keep O'Shea can go through the rest of the league and let me know if either group has ever happened in the CFL in the last 20 or so years.

Exactly.  17 to 85 seems to have this erroneous reasoning that by keeping a Berry or Mack with the organization for a sufficient period of time it will bear fruit in the form of long-term success.  In reality, patience will not be rewarded by tolerating mediocrity year after year - it will just result in more mediocrity.  Every team in the league won't tolerate losing for very long (proven if you take the time to review each team's history) - they will fire the personnel responsible for the team's underachievement and move on to new coaching/management.

 

The Bombers have been mediocre for so long because they have hired inexperienced/inept coaches and management the past decade plus.  It has nothing to do with not showing adequate patience for the inept coaching/personnel.

 

Which, I'd argue, we had no choice but to do because no qualified/experienced coach/manager wants to come here because we are a coaching graveyard that fires people constantly and shows zero patience...

[Goalie]

Folks who want to keep O'Shea on if he doesn't make the playoffs this year don't seem to understand the lessons that history teaches us.

The list of rookie HC's who didn't make the playoffs in their first 2 years who didn't get fired has to be very small.

The list of rookie HC's who didn't make the playoffs in their first 2 years and then went on to become good to great HC's is equally short.

I'm not going to go through all the HC's in the last 20 years for all the teams, but I can tell you that the first and the second list contain exactly zero members when it comes to Bomber HC's in the last 20 years. Maybe someone who thinks we should keep O'Shea can go through the rest of the league and let me know if either group has ever happened in the CFL in the last 20 or so years.

Exactly. 17 to 85 seems to have this erroneous reasoning that by keeping a Berry or Mack with the organization for a sufficient period of time it will bear fruit in the form of long-term success. In reality, patience will not be rewarded by tolerating mediocrity year after year - it will just result in more mediocrity. Every team in the league won't tolerate losing for very long (proven if you take the time to review each team's history) - they will fire the personnel responsible for the team's underachievement and move on to new coaching/management.

The Bombers have been mediocre for so long because they have hired inexperienced/inept coaches and management the past decade plus. It has nothing to do with not showing adequate patience for the inept coaching/personnel.

Which, I'd argue, we had no choice but to do because no qualified/experienced coach/manager wants to come here because we are a coaching graveyard that fires people constantly and shows zero patience...

No kidding and how people still don't get this is crazy really.

[Atomic]

Folks who want to keep O'Shea on if he doesn't make the playoffs this year don't seem to understand the lessons that history teaches us.

The list of rookie HC's who didn't make the playoffs in their first 2 years who didn't get fired has to be very small.

The list of rookie HC's who didn't make the playoffs in their first 2 years and then went on to become good to great HC's is equally short.

I'm not going to go through all the HC's in the last 20 years for all the teams, but I can tell you that the first and the second list contain exactly zero members when it comes to Bomber HC's in the last 20 years. Maybe someone who thinks we should keep O'Shea can go through the rest of the league and let me know if either group has ever happened in the CFL in the last 20 or so years.

Exactly. 17 to 85 seems to have this erroneous reasoning that by keeping a Berry or Mack with the organization for a sufficient period of time it will bear fruit in the form of long-term success. In reality, patience will not be rewarded by tolerating mediocrity year after year - it will just result in more mediocrity. Every team in the league won't tolerate losing for very long (proven if you take the time to review each team's history) - they will fire the personnel responsible for the team's underachievement and move on to new coaching/management.

The Bombers have been mediocre for so long because they have hired inexperienced/inept coaches and management the past decade plus. It has nothing to do with not showing adequate patience for the inept coaching/personnel.

Which, I'd argue, we had no choice but to do because no qualified/experienced coach/manager wants to come here because we are a coaching graveyard that fires people constantly and shows zero patience...

No kidding and how people still don't get this is crazy really.

So how did Hamilton get Austin? Look at the Ticats hiring and firing record over the past 10-15 years and it's no better than the Bombers'. Money talks. Identify the right guy and move heaven and earth to get him here.

[tacklewasher]

So how did Hamilton get Austin? Look at the Ticats hiring and firing record over the past 10-15 years and it's no better than the Bombers'. Money talks. Identify the right guy and move heaven and earth to get him here.

 

 

Agreed. Go after an experienced coach and pay right. Then let him bring in his team of coaches. We keep firing guys every 2 years because we keep hiring **** people as coach.

[17to85]

Everyone keeps saying just fire people, it cant' get worse, but that's how you go from Dave Ritchie to Jim Daley or Doug Berry to Mike Kelly. and on and on and on. But hey by all means continue the process, it's worked out great for the last 25 years, but THIS TIME, this time we'll win the Grey Cup instantly surely. 

 

The talent on this team was decimated so badly because of the hirings and firings in the 2000s that we are still trying to rebuild from that. Basically an expansion team and then we fired the first GM to have a crack at trying to rebuild it and brought in someone else who got rid of almost everything and started from scratch again. What do we do? Fire these guys and start from scratch again? 

 

Look they gave Bellefeuille a chance this year thinking that continuity and an improved on paper offensive line would make a difference, it hasn't so now the next logical step is to change the offensive coordinator. People hate it, but patience. If next year is another poor year then yes let's discuss firing people but right now it's premature. Let's see where we stand when the NIs drafted by this regime are more veteran and experienced. If our offensive line still sucks when Goosen and Chungh have some experience then we'll talk. 

[tacklewasher]

Look they gave Bellefeuille a chance this year thinking that continuity and an improved on paper offensive line would make a difference, it hasn't so now the next logical step is to change the offensive coordinator.

 

So do it. Change the OC now and show that improvements are coming. I'm tired of MB's lame offense. Tired enough that I doubt I will watch this weekend.

 

I'm not excited to see what ST will do now the MOS is directly in charge. I would be excited to see what the offense could do under a different OC.

[Floyd]

Everyone keeps saying just fire people, it cant' get worse, but that's how you go from Dave Ritchie to Jim Daley or Doug Berry to Mike Kelly. and on and on and on. But hey by all means continue the process, it's worked out great for the last 25 years, but THIS TIME, this time we'll win the Grey Cup instantly surely. 

 

The talent on this team was decimated so badly because of the hirings and firings in the 2000s that we are still trying to rebuild from that. Basically an expansion team and then we fired the first GM to have a crack at trying to rebuild it and brought in someone else who got rid of almost everything and started from scratch again. What do we do? Fire these guys and start from scratch again? 

 

Look they gave Bellefeuille a chance this year thinking that continuity and an improved on paper offensive line would make a difference, it hasn't so now the next logical step is to change the offensive coordinator. People hate it, but patience. If next year is another poor year then yes let's discuss firing people but right now it's premature. Let's see where we stand when the NIs drafted by this regime are more veteran and experienced. If our offensive line still sucks when Goosen and Chungh have some experience then we'll talk. 

 

Its funny, I don't remember anyone calling for Ritchie's head except for Bauer...  same with Berry, in the second half of the 2008 season, we were a pretty good team

[blueandgoldguy]

 

 

Folks who want to keep O'Shea on if he doesn't make the playoffs this year don't seem to understand the lessons that history teaches us.

 

The list of rookie HC's who didn't make the playoffs in their first 2 years who didn't get fired has to be very small. 

 

The list of rookie HC's who didn't make the playoffs in their first 2 years and then went on to become good to great HC's is equally short. 

 

I'm not going to go through all the HC's in the last 20 years for all the teams, but I can tell you that the first and the second list contain exactly zero members when it comes to Bomber HC's in the last 20 years. Maybe someone who thinks we should keep O'Shea can go through the rest of the league and let me know if either group has ever happened in the CFL in the last 20 or so years.

Exactly.  17 to 85 seems to have this erroneous reasoning that by keeping a Berry or Mack with the organization for a sufficient period of time it will bear fruit in the form of long-term success.  In reality, patience will not be rewarded by tolerating mediocrity year after year - it will just result in more mediocrity.  Every team in the league won't tolerate losing for very long (proven if you take the time to review each team's history) - they will fire the personnel responsible for the team's underachievement and move on to new coaching/management.

 

The Bombers have been mediocre for so long because they have hired inexperienced/inept coaches and management the past decade plus.  It has nothing to do with not showing adequate patience for the inept coaching/personnel.

 

Which, I'd argue, we had no choice but to do because no qualified/experienced coach/manager wants to come here because we are a coaching graveyard that fires people constantly and shows zero patience...

 

So how does Toronto hire Barker after firing several coaches in a year or less - fired Etcheverry after 12 games in 2002, fired Rich Stubler after 10 games in 2008, fired Bart Andrus after one season in 2009.  Oh wait, I know!  It's because the Bomber BOD, in their infinite wisdom, decided Joe Mack was the best person for the job.  They also snagged a good one in Milanovich.

 

See all the firings the Edmonton Eskimos made over the past 8 years at GM, and at various coaching positions within the organization.  That did not prevent them from hiring one of the best DC and hottest coaching prospect in the league in 2014 did it?

 

See Hamilton firing Bellefool in 2012, then firing Cortez the following season.  Did that prevent them from hiring Austin?

 

Bombers have all the choices in the world to hiring quality talent, just as the above mentioned teams did which are no less coaching graveyards then Winnipeg. The difference probably lies in the people doing the hiring.

[blueandgoldguy]

 

 

 

Folks who want to keep O'Shea on if he doesn't make the playoffs this year don't seem to understand the lessons that history teaches us.

The list of rookie HC's who didn't make the playoffs in their first 2 years who didn't get fired has to be very small.

The list of rookie HC's who didn't make the playoffs in their first 2 years and then went on to become good to great HC's is equally short.

I'm not going to go through all the HC's in the last 20 years for all the teams, but I can tell you that the first and the second list contain exactly zero members when it comes to Bomber HC's in the last 20 years. Maybe someone who thinks we should keep O'Shea can go through the rest of the league and let me know if either group has ever happened in the CFL in the last 20 or so years.

Exactly. 17 to 85 seems to have this erroneous reasoning that by keeping a Berry or Mack with the organization for a sufficient period of time it will bear fruit in the form of long-term success. In reality, patience will not be rewarded by tolerating mediocrity year after year - it will just result in more mediocrity. Every team in the league won't tolerate losing for very long (proven if you take the time to review each team's history) - they will fire the personnel responsible for the team's underachievement and move on to new coaching/management.

The Bombers have been mediocre for so long because they have hired inexperienced/inept coaches and management the past decade plus. It has nothing to do with not showing adequate patience for the inept coaching/personnel.

Which, I'd argue, we had no choice but to do because no qualified/experienced coach/manager wants to come here because we are a coaching graveyard that fires people constantly and shows zero patience...

No kidding and how people still don't get this is crazy really.

 

See my examples above. Edmonton, Toronto and Hamilton.  There are more than these by the way.

[blueandgoldguy]

Everyone keeps saying just fire people, it cant' get worse, but that's how you go from Dave Ritchie to Jim Daley or Doug Berry to Mike Kelly. and on and on and on. Or maybe by hiring the appropriate coach/gm you move from a Cortez to an Austin or a Bart Andrus to a Barker and Milanovich. But hey by all means continue the process, it's worked out great for the last 25 years, but THIS TIME, this time we'll win the Grey Cup instantly surely. if you hire quality personnel then yes, a Grey Cup victory should happen.  That means staying away from inept and inexperienced managers like Mack, Taman, Kelly(possibly Walters) and inept coaches like Burke (possibly O'shea)

 

The talent on this team was decimated so badly because of the hirings and firings in the 2000s that we are still trying to rebuild from that. Football careers only last 3 or 4 seasons on average.  No way this team is rebuilding from all the firings and hirings in the 2000s, Most teams turn over their rosters twice by then.  Basically an expansion team and then we fired the first GM to have a crack at trying to rebuild it and brought in someone else who got rid of almost everything and started from scratch again.  The talent on those teams wasn't that good otherwise it would have been kept.  Most of those players had a cup of coffee with other teams or were never heard from again. What do we do? Fire these guys and start from scratch again? 

 

Look they gave Bellefeuille a chance this year thinking that continuity and an improved on paper offensive line would make a difference, it hasn't so now the next logical step is to change the offensive coordinator. People hate it, but patience. If next year is another poor year then yes let's discuss firing people but right now it's premature. If you are referring to Walters I agree.  Gms generally get 3 years to establish a decent team.  But for the head coach, I disagree.  If the Bombers fail to make the playoffs and finish with a worse record than last year, O'shea deserves to be fired.  I doubt you could name me a head coach in league history who missed the playoffs in his first two years in the league AND had a worse record in his second season but still managed to keep his job. Let's see where we stand when the NIs drafted by this regime are more veteran and experienced. If our offensive line still sucks when Goosen and Chungh have some experience then we'll talk. 

[SPuDS]

it also doesnt help that our fanbase and media are conpletely hate filled and chase coaches at first sign of adversity..

[Mr Dee]

So how does Toronto hire Barker after firing several coaches in a year or less - fired Etcheverry after 12 games in 2002, fired Rich Stubler after 10 games in 2008, fired Bart Andrus after one season in 2009.  Oh wait, I know!  It's because the Bomber BOD, in their infinite wisdom, decided Joe Mack was the best person for the job.  They also snagged a good one in Milanovich.

 

See all the firings the Edmonton Eskimos made over the past 8 years at GM, and at various coaching positions within the organization.  That did not prevent them from hiring one of the best DC and hottest coaching prospect in the league in 2014 did it?

 

See Hamilton firing Bellefool in 2012, then firing Cortez the following season.  Did that prevent them from hiring Austin?

 

Bombers have all the choices in the world to hiring quality talent, just as the above mentioned teams did which are no less coaching graveyards then Winnipeg. The difference probably lies in the people doing the hiring.

I'm glad you brought up Barker's name because he was under consideration for the job Mack was hired for. And, as I understand it, he literally flew over Winnipeg on his way to Toronto for his next interview. He wanted no part of what was happening here.

Timing and availability also come into play. Austin was ready to come back to the CFL and Hamilton' s Bob Young was waiting with open arms...and his cheque book.

I would agree that if a Milanovich, or an Austin, Hufnagel or deflated balls good friend Wally Buono, became available, we should go after them.

We did start anew and it has to be played out with Walters and O'Shea, for one more year. That doesn't mean they have to hire inept help, but they should get the chance to finish what they started.

With Willy at the helm, we finally have a chance. We never did have that chance at QB. Get that O-line fixed, and we're on our way. I can see that, but we desperately need an OC with vision, not a nickel and dimer.

It's spelled p a t I e n c e, like 17 said.

[TBURGESS]

it also doesnt help that our fanbase and media are conpletely hate filled and chase coaches at first sign of adversity..

The first sign of adversity was the 1-8 second half of last season. O'Shea wouldn't have lasted the whole last season in Montreal or Regina or probably anywhere other than Winnipeg where we stick with what's not working for way too long.

[Rich]

it also doesnt help that our fanbase and media are conpletely hate filled and chase coaches at first sign of adversity..

 

The first sign of adversity happened the second half of last season.   I was willing to wait and give them a chance.  A full year to scout and recruit and find better players.

 

Heck, it isn't even the record that is the problem with this team.  If they were at least competitive in games and still losing, I could see the progression to being a better team. I know this team had a lot to fix and a ways to go, but the problem is this team isn't getting better.   They aren't even competitive anymore.

 

And you can throw out the Willy excuse, but how many other teams lost their starting QBs this season.  It is football, injuries happen.

 

I'm really on the fence on Walter / O'Shea ... Part of me thinks they still deserve one more year, but I do know that right now there is absolutely zero fun sitting and watching these games in the stands.   I'm tired of the mediocrity and I'm not the only one.   Proof will be in the pudding with season ticket sales for next season.   The team may be forced to make a change just to make their mortgage payment.

[Captain Blue]

 

it also doesnt help that our fanbase and media are conpletely hate filled and chase coaches at first sign of adversity..

 

The first sign of adversity happened the second half of last season.   I was willing to wait and give them a chance.  A full year to scout and recruit and find better players.

 

Heck, it isn't even the record that is the problem with this team.  If they were at least competitive in games and still losing, I could see the progression to being a better team. I know this team had a lot to fix and a ways to go, but the problem is this team isn't getting better.   They aren't even competitive anymore.

 

And you can throw out the Willy excuse, but how many other teams lost their starting QBs this season.  It is football, injuries happen.

 

I'm really on the fence on Walter / O'Shea ... Part of me thinks they still deserve one more year, but I do know that right now there is absolutely zero fun sitting and watching these games in the stands.   I'm tired of the mediocrity and I'm not the only one.   Proof will be in the pudding with season ticket sales for next season.   The team may be forced to make a change just to make their mortgage payment.

 

 

Patience is only useful if there are signs pointing that a team or organization is headed in the right direction. You hit it on the head - its not that they are losing (though a Sask loss really is a let down) but how they are losing. I can't look at this team's direction and feel confident that it is going to change anytime soon.

 

Jumping into the discussion overall: I support stability, its something this team needs badly, but there are two points here that need to be made when discussing patience: 

1) Keeping a bad GM/head coach/player/fill-in-whatever for the sake of stability is insane. Retaining a coach doesn't make him better suddenly. The Lions continually employed Matt Millen, and that didn't lead to success. A bad fill-in-whatever doesn't suddenly become good because he's been given more opportunity to make mistakes.

 

2) The cause and effect relationship between stability and success isn't X causes Y. More likely, its success causes stability. Good coaches are going to stick around longer and their teams are going to be competitive. Is that team successful because they retained the coach or because the coach is actually good? Conversely, bad organizations (hello, Winnipeg) make bad hires, so their coaches get fired faster. The reason they are failing (or, most of the time) isn't because of impatience but because they were bad decisions or hires in the first place.

[Tracker]

it also doesnt help that our fanbase and media are conpletely hate filled and chase coaches at first sign of adversity..

I think you are confusing frustration with hatred and a year of futilty and bad judgment with adversity.

[rebusrankin]

it also doesnt help that our fanbase and media are conpletely hate filled and chase coaches at first sign of adversity..

By this logic, Reinbold, Daley and Burke should have gotten more time.

[sportmentary2012]

I am jumping in late here but the Bombers have lost sight of how to build a winner. The last 10 years is proof that this team cannot stand the smell of success. I will use the Lapo and Glenn situations as examples of when adversity hit those guys were shown the door. However, in both cases they failed to hire a coach and find a player of equal or better caliber to take their spots. Therefore, no one should be quick to give the hook to the current gm or coach or barfoil unless there are suitable replacements,which there are not at this juncture.

This crew will turn things around once they can acquire some talent. The Matt Nichols trade will prove to be wise and I believe oshea will learn from this season and be better for it. He basically said on the coaches show that they don't have the players on offence to make marcel 's offensive plan work and that several teams are running the same style of 'o' with varying degrees of success.

I hope that next year will be the turning point and for that to happen the main players must remain intact.

[Brandon]

Most good teams don't restrict their playbook to 5 yard passes or less.     The funny part is that over the last 2 seasons with Willy... our most success comes from the deep ball.   We have not been a good dink and dunk team.

[SPuDS]

Whoa whoa whoa folks. Im talking for EVERY coach we have had in the last two decades pretty much lol. First sign of our squad not winning.. Media attacks, fans break out pitchforks, GM And board react to panic and boom another firing.

If you guys think potential coaches and GMs dont see this and realize it is almost career suicide to put on our headsets and dress shirts, you are nuts.

[White Out]

I'd love to have a boss like noeller or 17/85. Just screw the pooch royally, and be given slack because, hey, why not.

 

I love that people have cited so many examples of how there's no such thing as a coaches graveyard scaring away quality people. Bombers are simply cheap and don't want to hire the best people like Toronto, Calgary, or Hamilton did. Hamilton fired coaches almost annually until they got the right person ffs. Just 2 years ago.

 

MOS was a bad hire. Walters was a bad hire. Firing them and paying handsomely for the right people is the solution. But like another poster said, this cheap org would rather clink plastic cups together at Earls and celebrate savings.