Stadium Construction In Ottawa

[iso_55]

 

 

I don't really see where a pissing contest about attendance breaks out.  He's saying that the Bombers will be relying on a gate to service the debt (Buchko said they needed 31,500 a game to do it), while the Tiger-Cats won't be in that position, which could affect football operations and the money available. 

Would that crappola new stadium in Hamilton have been built if it wasn't for the Pan Am Games? No way at all. They'd be stuck in the old Never Win Stadium until it collapsed. It's 100% taxpayer funded.

 

So...what's your point?  Ours will end up being taxpayer funded too.

 

Reread my first sentence. That's my point. The community in Hamilton would never build the Ti Cats a new stand alone football stadium... Had to be a sporting event to get it done.

[iso_55]

Reading Edwards's piece I think that jealousy & envy fueled that story. Put us down to make the fans in Hamilton feel better about their new stadium when they know it'll suck.

[JuranBoldenRules]

I'd like to know how he came up with his $250mil comment. Enclosing the press box ain't gonna cost $50mil.

I don't really see where a pissing contest about attendance breaks out.  He's saying that the Bombers will be relying on a gate to service the debt (Buchko said they needed 31,500 a game to do it), while the Tiger-Cats won't be in that position, which could affect football operations and the money available.

Didn't Buchko say that before the new TV deal was signed?

 

 

I heard Buchko say it on the radio about 2 weeks before he got fired.  That was the break even point with football operations at their current spending and servicing the debt.  Of course they need to pay back a separate $10 million loan that covered some items they added before they start paying the province. 

 

No one but the higher ups at SOD know what the final tally is.  There was a lot of extra work that had to be done to get occupancy, not to mention costs associated with the delay.  We probably won't know everything until the suit and countersuit between SOD and the steel subcontractor hit the court.  SOD took a huge loss on the project, hopefully they don't try to recover the loss by suing anyone but their steel contractor. 

[iso_55]

I wonder how much the problems were exacerbated when the province insisted the construction go to a Manitoba company rather than an international company who had experience building large stadiums & arenas? Trying to keep everything local end up delaying everything &  making the project more expensive?

[17to85]

I wonder how much the problems were exacerbated when the province insisted the construction go to a Manitoba company rather than an international company who had experience building large stadiums & arenas? Trying to keep everything local end up delaying everything &  making the project more expensive?

Sounds like a typical NDP policy. Forget the most qualified, get someone local to do it. 

[TrueBlue]

I wonder how much the problems were exacerbated when the province insisted the construction go to a Manitoba company rather than an international company who had experience building large stadiums & arenas? Trying to keep everything local end up delaying everything &  making the project more expensive?

 

Given the budget of $148 mil, the cost per seat at THF is about 10% more.  But if you take away the cost of our canopy, and at least the cost of one of our video boards, my guess is roughly a 25-30% difference instead.  Hard to say if our cost overruns amount to that.

[holoman]

 

 

 

I don't really see where a pissing contest about attendance breaks out.  He's saying that the Bombers will be relying on a gate to service the debt (Buchko said they needed 31,500 a game to do it), while the Tiger-Cats won't be in that position, which could affect football operations and the money available. 

Would that crappola new stadium in Hamilton have been built if it wasn't for the Pan Am Games? No way at all. They'd be stuck in the old Never Win Stadium until it collapsed. It's 100% taxpayer funded.

 

So...what's your point?  Ours will end up being taxpayer funded too.

 

Reread my first sentence. That's my point. The community in Hamilton would never build the Ti Cats a new stand alone football stadium... Had to be a sporting event to get it done.

 

And if it wasn't for the Bisons, IGF doesn't get funding

[iso_55]

Are you whispering because you're not sure? Yes, the feds insisted the stadium be built at the U of M to make it look like they weren't funding a pro sports team. But you know there's no way the provincial government would have funded a 33.000 seat stadium if it was just for the Bisons. So, what you're saying is a stretch. Biiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch. Funds were moved around. Things were said.... These are politicians we're talking about here. How can that even be compared to the 2015 Pan Am Games & the funding model used for a stadium in Hamilton? 

[JuranBoldenRules]

Are you whispering because you're not sure? Yes, the feds insisted the stadium be built at the U of M to make it look like they weren't funding a pro sports team. But you know there's no way the provincial government would have funded a 33.000 seat stadium if it was just for the Bisons. So, what you're saying is a stretch. Biiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch. Funds were moved around. Things were said.... These are politicians we're talking about here. How can that even be compared to the 2015 Pan Am Games & the funding model used for a stadium in Hamilton? 

 

Your logic makes no sense.  Why would they build a stadium in Hamilton for the Toronto Pan Am Games?  Maybe because they have a CFL team to use it?  They could have built it at any number of locations in the region and used it for amateur sport.

[iso_55]

 

Are you whispering because you're not sure? Yes, the feds insisted the stadium be built at the U of M to make it look like they weren't funding a pro sports team. But you know there's no way the provincial government would have funded a 33.000 seat stadium if it was just for the Bisons. So, what you're saying is a stretch. Biiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch. Funds were moved around. Things were said.... These are politicians we're talking about here. How can that even be compared to the 2015 Pan Am Games & the funding model used for a stadium in Hamilton? 

 

Your logic makes no sense.  Why would they build a stadium in Hamilton for the Toronto Pan Am Games?  Maybe because they have a CFL team to use it?

 

Okay, I won't bother to answer that one....

[JuranBoldenRules]

I wonder how much the problems were exacerbated when the province insisted the construction go to a Manitoba company rather than an international company who had experience building large stadiums & arenas? Trying to keep everything local end up delaying everything &  making the project more expensive?

 

The province didn't take over until Asper had the plans laid out.  He insisted on the local architect who had zero experience with this type of facility, likely why the building is more form over function for football fans and flawed with obstructed views and tiny concourses.  The construction went to a company that is pretty prominent throughout Canada, as did most of the sub work.

[The Unknown Poster]

IGF is tremendous.  I've sat in the end section of the upperdeck, no issue with sightlines there.  I dont think concourses are an issue either other than I know a lot of people that spend a lot of time in the concourse rather than their seats because you can see the field.  The Federal funding came in because of the tie in with the UofM.  Was the land also donated by the University?  ie. would the fair market cost of the land have pushed the fina; price tag way up had it been required?

 

I for one hope the UofM and Bombers use some of the surrounding land to increase the experience.  I know there is a transit loop going in at the Golf Course but that area should include some parkland and "gathering" space.  No reason why a Bomber game or concert can't be an all day major event in the summer.

[Guest]

Where did the Federal money go towards the stadium ?

I'm pretty sure it went directly into the Uof M's rec facility. Obviously could just have been some creative finanacing plan though.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/cfl/blog/cfl_experts/post/Ding-dong-the-deal-is-done-Winnipeg-stadium-mo?urn=cfl-297016

[Uncle Bill]

 

Are you whispering because you're not sure? Yes, the feds insisted the stadium be built at the U of M to make it look like they weren't funding a pro sports team. But you know there's no way the provincial government would have funded a 33.000 seat stadium if it was just for the Bisons. So, what you're saying is a stretch. Biiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch. Funds were moved around. Things were said.... These are politicians we're talking about here. How can that even be compared to the 2015 Pan Am Games & the funding model used for a stadium in Hamilton? 

 

Your logic makes no sense.  Why would they build a stadium in Hamilton for the Toronto Pan Am Games?  Maybe because they have a CFL team to use it?  They could have built it at any number of locations in the region and used it for amateur sport.

 

The new Hamilton stadium IS being built exclusively due to the Pan Am games.

[Uncle Bill]

I wonder how much the problems were exacerbated when the province insisted the construction go to a Manitoba company rather than an international company who had experience building large stadiums & arenas? Trying to keep everything local end up delaying everything & making the project more expensive?

The province didn't take over until Asper had the plans laid out. He insisted on the local architect who had zero experience with this type of facility, likely why the building is more form over function for football fans and flawed with obstructed views and tiny concourses. The construction went to a company that is pretty prominent throughout Canada, as did most of the sub work.

The "tiny" concourses are likely more an effect of cost than an inexperienced architect IMO. The notion the concourses are too small has been discussed ad nauseum. I think the size of concourses at most arenas and stadiums is always too small. As for obstructed views, there is not a single sports facility that does not have some obstructed view seats. Even the vaunted Dallas Cowboys stadium has obstructed view seats.

[Guest]

[JuranBoldenRules]

 

 

Are you whispering because you're not sure? Yes, the feds insisted the stadium be built at the U of M to make it look like they weren't funding a pro sports team. But you know there's no way the provincial government would have funded a 33.000 seat stadium if it was just for the Bisons. So, what you're saying is a stretch. Biiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch. Funds were moved around. Things were said.... These are politicians we're talking about here. How can that even be compared to the 2015 Pan Am Games & the funding model used for a stadium in Hamilton? 

 

Your logic makes no sense.  Why would they build a stadium in Hamilton for the Toronto Pan Am Games?  Maybe because they have a CFL team to use it?  They could have built it at any number of locations in the region and used it for amateur sport.

 

The new Hamilton stadium IS being built exclusively due to the Pan Am games.

 

No kidding.  It is Toronto's Pan Am Games.  They could have built it at Downsview, they could have built it in Mississauga, Markham, any number of locations or cities in the region.  They could have chosen to build a temporary facility to hold the soccer games that didn't fit at BMO.  I wonder why they chose Hamilton, and to build it up to CFL football specifications.  Why?

 

 

 

[iso_55]

 

 

Are you whispering because you're not sure? Yes, the feds insisted the stadium be built at the U of M to make it look like they weren't funding a pro sports team. But you know there's no way the provincial government would have funded a 33.000 seat stadium if it was just for the Bisons. So, what you're saying is a stretch. Biiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch. Funds were moved around. Things were said.... These are politicians we're talking about here. How can that even be compared to the 2015 Pan Am Games & the funding model used for a stadium in Hamilton? 

 

Your logic makes no sense.  Why would they build a stadium in Hamilton for the Toronto Pan Am Games?  Maybe because they have a CFL team to use it?  They could have built it at any number of locations in the region and used it for amateur sport.

 

The new Hamilton stadium IS being built exclusively due to the Pan Am games.

 

Yeah, I thought everyone knew that.  Guess I was wrong. There'd be no new stadium for the Ti Cats if it wasn't for those games. So, for Edwards to talk about our barn is comical. BTW, JBR the facility is being built for soccer at the Pan Am Games.

[JuranBoldenRules]

 

 

 

 

Are you whispering because you're not sure? Yes, the feds insisted the stadium be built at the U of M to make it look like they weren't funding a pro sports team. But you know there's no way the provincial government would have funded a 33.000 seat stadium if it was just for the Bisons. So, what you're saying is a stretch. Biiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch. Funds were moved around. Things were said.... These are politicians we're talking about here. How can that even be compared to the 2015 Pan Am Games & the funding model used for a stadium in Hamilton? 

 

Your logic makes no sense.  Why would they build a stadium in Hamilton for the Toronto Pan Am Games?  Maybe because they have a CFL team to use it?  They could have built it at any number of locations in the region and used it for amateur sport.

 

The new Hamilton stadium IS being built exclusively due to the Pan Am games.

 

Yeah, I thought everyone knew that.  Guess I was wrong. There'd be no new stadium for the Ti Cats if it wasn't for those games. So, for Edwards to talk about our barn is comical. BTW, JBR the facility is being built for soccer at the Pan Am Games.

 

Ya, that's how they got government funding.  They are building a football stadium in Hamilton for Toronto's Pan Am Games.  Connect the dots.

[iso_55]

 

 

 

 

 

Are you whispering because you're not sure? Yes, the feds insisted the stadium be built at the U of M to make it look like they weren't funding a pro sports team. But you know there's no way the provincial government would have funded a 33.000 seat stadium if it was just for the Bisons. So, what you're saying is a stretch. Biiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch. Funds were moved around. Things were said.... These are politicians we're talking about here. How can that even be compared to the 2015 Pan Am Games & the funding model used for a stadium in Hamilton? 

 

Your logic makes no sense.  Why would they build a stadium in Hamilton for the Toronto Pan Am Games?  Maybe because they have a CFL team to use it?  They could have built it at any number of locations in the region and used it for amateur sport.

 

The new Hamilton stadium IS being built exclusively due to the Pan Am games.

 

Yeah, I thought everyone knew that.  Guess I was wrong. There'd be no new stadium for the Ti Cats if it wasn't for those games. So, for Edwards to talk about our barn is comical. BTW, JBR the facility is being built for soccer at the Pan Am Games.

 

Ya, that's how they got government funding.  They are building a football stadium in Hamilton for Toronto's Pan Am Games.  Connect the dots.

 

Are we talking the same thing here because your answer is confusing. The soccer competition is being held in Hamilton. They are building a stadium in Hamilton strictly for the Pan Am Games. All 3 levels of government are funding the new stadium for the Pan Am Gamers not the Ti Cats. If there were no Pan Am Games there'd be no new stadium for the Ti Cats. No one in Ontario would have stepped forward. How is this not clear?

[Jacquie]

Are we talking the same thing here because your answer is confusing. The soccer competition is being held in Hamilton. They are building a stadium in Hamilton strictly for the Pan Am Games. All 3 levels of government are funding the new stadium for the Pan Am Gamers not the Ti Cats. If there were no Pan Am Games there'd be no new stadium for the Ti Cats. No one in Ontario would have stepped forward. How is this not clear?

 

It's been reported in the Toronto and Hamilton papers that David Braley (who was on the Pan Am Games board until he was named a senator) had a lot of influence in having the soccer competition held in Hamilton so the Ticats could get a new stadium. Maybe in hindsight he would have been better off having it built in Toronto for the Argos.

[iso_55]

 

Are we talking the same thing here because your answer is confusing. The soccer competition is being held in Hamilton. They are building a stadium in Hamilton strictly for the Pan Am Games. All 3 levels of government are funding the new stadium for the Pan Am Gamers not the Ti Cats. If there were no Pan Am Games there'd be no new stadium for the Ti Cats. No one in Ontario would have stepped forward. How is this not clear?

 

It's been reported in the Toronto and Hamilton papers that David Braley (who was on the Pan Am Games board until he was named a senator) had a lot of influence in having the soccer competition held in Hamilton so the Ticats could get a new stadium. Maybe in hindsight he would have been better off having it built in Toronto for the Argos.

 

I won't argue that premise. The only thing is Never Win Stadium was a dump. Worse than Canad Inns. Worse than Mosaic Stadium.

[Uncle Bill]

Are you whispering because you're not sure? Yes, the feds insisted the stadium be built at the U of M to make it look like they weren't funding a pro sports team. But you know there's no way the provincial government would have funded a 33.000 seat stadium if it was just for the Bisons. So, what you're saying is a stretch. Biiiiiiiiiiiiig stretch. Funds were moved around. Things were said.... These are politicians we're talking about here. How can that even be compared to the 2015 Pan Am Games & the funding model used for a stadium in Hamilton?

 

Your logic makes no sense.  Why would they build a stadium in Hamilton for the Toronto Pan Am Games?  Maybe because they have a CFL team to use it?  They could have built it at any number of locations in the region and used it for amateur sport.

The new Hamilton stadium IS being built exclusively due to the Pan Am games.

No kidding.  It is Toronto's Pan Am Games.  They could have built it at Downsview, they could have built it in Mississauga, Markham, any number of locations or cities in the region.  They could have chosen to build a temporary facility to hold the soccer games that didn't fit at BMO.  I wonder why they chose Hamilton, and to build it up to CFL football specifications.  Why?

Ontario to Stage a World-Class Pan Am and Parapan Am Games in 2015

Province Launches Strategy to Create a Lasting Pan Am and Parapan Am Games Legacy

August 28, 2013

Ontario is launching its Pan Am and Parapan Am Games Promotion, Celebration and Legacy Strategy to increase the economic benefits and support them in becoming the People's Games.

The Games and Games-related investments will create more than 26,000 jobs – a boost of 11,000 jobs from an earlier assessment, and grow Ontario's real GDP by $3.7 billion from 2009 to 2017.

http://www.panam2015.gov.on.ca/en/news/2013/20130828.asp

Then, scoot here to see other Ontario communities involved in these games: http://www.panam2015.gov.on.ca/en/role/infrastructre.asp

[Uncle Bill]

And today, in Guelph, another non-sell out.

[blueandgoldguy]

JuranBoldenRules how about this?  If the Ticats don't exist, there's a good chance that either

 

A) the soccer matches are held at a newly constructed or existing stadium (probably BMO) in Toronto

 

or

 

the soccer matches are held in Hamilton but in a smaller facility (say 5,000 - 10,000  permanent seats) with several thousand temporary seats

 

However, since the Ticats exist, the PanAm officials and the province decided to build a stadium in Hamilton for soccer matches  (supposed to have track and field and a few other things but all that was kiboshed) to not only serve as a legacy project for the city -allowing the stadium to be used for amateur events and an eventual NASL (tier 2) soccer team - but also as a new home for the Ticats.

 

I think what some of the posters here are trying to say is that if the Pan Am games weren't taking place in TO/Hamilton, then no money would be forthcoming from the province or the city for a new football stadium.  IMO, the best they could have hoped for was a renovation to upgrade Ivor Wynne which would have been lipstick on a pig.

 

As for cost overruns on our stadium, I have heard on another forum that it could be in excess of 20% so $240-$250 million total.