Paris Attacks

[Mark H.]

Homosexuality is strictly forbidden in Islam. Now ofcourse there are Muslims who rail against that. But if you look around at polls and articles you will see a strong anti-gay sentiment among Muslims. It's a different culture so it will take longer to change but it should be a consideration when opening our country to people tjat don't share "our" views of human rights.

There's nothing unusual about that. We all know there are plenty North Americans who don't agree with homosexuality. Amish don't agree with divorce - doesn't mean they shouldn't be Canadian citizens?

[The Unknown Poster]

If Amish declared war on western culture and were carrying out mass murders in the name of their religion and promising to hide amongst refugees to commit more atrocities and there were thousands and thousands of Amish refugees trying to get in, I would suspect a lot of Canadians would want to be very cautious about that.

[Mark H.]

If Amish declared war on western culture and were carrying out mass murders in the name of their religion and promising to hide amongst refugees to commit more atrocities and there were thousands and thousands of Amish refugees trying to get in, I would suspect a lot of Canadians would want to be very cautious about that.

You implied that Muslim beliefs regarding homosexuality should be considered in the refugee screening process - did you not?

[kelownabomberfan]

a) If anything happens in Canada, it will not be something that could have been prevented by tighter security checks on refugees. Have tighter screening process by all means, but if ISIS wants to wreak havoc, they will wreak havoc

I'd like to be a bit more positive than this. If what you say is true though, I'm glad that we had a prime minister with the fore-sight to institute Bill C-51.

 

This is the end result of mistreating the middle east.  This kind of radicalism can and has come from other religions.  I need not point you any further than than Christianity after Constantine combined church and state.

I do hear what you are saying and the Iraqi war started by Bush is one of the biggest causes of a lot of the unrest and refugee crisis but I think it is overly simplistic to put all the blame on the US. The "Arab Spring" that occurred a few years ago also caused a lot of this mess. When I visited Egypt in 2008 I talked politics with a lot of Egyptians and they said they all hated Mubarak and Gadaffi but they also said that if strongmen weren't in place in the Islamic countries in the Middle East that all hell would break loose, and they were right on. That's why when the Arab Spring was happening and all of the starry-eyed leftists were droning on about how great it was that the peoples of these countries were "standing up for change", all I could think was that there was now a huge power vacuum in a lot of these places, and how tempting it would be for nutcases and extremists to move in and take over, no matter what the cost in blood. And I was right on.

I also think that it is too easy to just apologize for the sickness that dwells in the fanaticism of radical Islam. The Vietnamese were bombed mercilessly by the US and a million of their citizens were killed in a senseless and stupid war, and yet you don't see Vietnamese people self-detonating on the streets of Paris or flying planes into buildings in the US. It's not just about mistreatment, it's about the radical Islamist desire to take over the entire world, by force if necessary.

 

c) But hey - we could always send some more armoured vehicles to the Saudis - or provide the Taliban with more weapons to wreak havoc in Afghanistan.

I don't know what this has to do with the Paris attacks, or radical Islam. Really, talking about the armoured vehicles being sold to Saudi seems like a giant red herring, and I thought that it was a huge mistake of Mulcair, in a campaign loaded with mistakes, to turn that contract with Canada into a political football. If extremists start self-detonating on the streets of Paris in Canadian-made armoured vehicles, then we can talk.

[kelownabomberfan]

We all know there are plenty North Americans who don't agree with homosexuality.

To the point of giving them the death penalty??? Really? Because that's what happens to men who get accused of homosexuality in Middle Eastern countries run by Islamic theocracies. You really aren't comparing apples with apples here.

[PCB]

And no you haven't countered by argument at all. This is Syria where 200 honor killing a year took place before the civil war.

Do you think we're making sure the only refugees that come here don't believe in sharia law? Don't hate Jews and gays? Don't believe their women are property? I mean yeah I guess it's just a wonderful culture we should embrace.

I'm all for helping people. But when the enemy says they will hide among refugees and this has been proven already you don't put politics of bringing in refugees ahead of the safety of Canadians.

 

 

Oh man PCB just use common sense. One of the Paris killers was a refugee.

What is your angle here? That there does not exist a large number of Muslim's who want sharia law throughout the world and are willing to murder innocent people to achieve it?

When is it not okay to you?

Your arrogance is palpable. Your "common sense" does not outweigh another's opinion, or for that matter, fact. 

 

How do you not feel embarrassed to say I "did not counter your argument?" I demonstrated the facts you presented regarding homosexuality and anti-semitism are unsubstantiated. 

 

"One of the Paris killers was a refuge" so we should treat an entire people differently. That is what you are saying. Dude, you need to think about the principle you're expounding right now. It has no place here.

[The Unknown Poster]

The viewpoint of homosexuality and Jews is unsubstantiated? Uhhhh okay....whatever you say. As another pointed out you realize that homosexuality can be punishable by death?

[The Unknown Poster]

No P, we should be careful. You seem to think there is no

Middle ground between minimally vetted mass refugees from an area of the world at war where the enemy has promised to hide among refugees and closing the borders.

There is a middle ground. And as much as you dislike it, it's called common sense.

[Mark H.]

We all know there are plenty North Americans who don't agree with homosexuality.

To the point of giving them the death penalty??? Really? Because that's what happens to men who get accused of homosexuality in Middle Eastern countries run by Islamic theocracies. You really aren't comparing apples with apples here.

I know. And India has the death penalty for impaired driving. What do think the screening process for beliefs regarding homosexuality should look like?

[The Unknown Poster]

I think people are missing the point. Where is the argument in favour of 25,000 minimally vetted Syrian refugees on such a short timeline?

[JuranBoldenRules]

There are hundreds if not thousands of disenfranchised first and second generation Canadian youth who pose a much bigger threat to our "security" in the near term in terms of being radicalized than refugees arriving in the coming months, along with some disenfranchised "Canadian" youth.  These are the people perpetrating the ISIS attacks in the West.

 

To me, the argument against taking refugees should have more to do with the fact that they are coming here to a place with very little economic opportunity for them, which often leads to the disconnect with the rest of society.  There aren't a lot of radicalized individuals who were well educated people who left good jobs in the west to join the Jihad.  They are almost always unemployed with justice system involvement.  This thought is always trumped by the immediate safety concerns for the refugees.  If proper resources and opportunities aren't in place, we're just setting the trap for 20 years down the line.

[Mark H.]

I think people are missing the point. Where is the argument in favour of 25,000 minimally vetted Syrian refugees on such a short timeline?

 

That's a matter of perspective. Most European countries wouldn't consider the end of 2015 to be a short timeline. To them the issue the issue is here. Now.

 

There was an article a couple of weeks ago about a homosexual couple in Germany who took in a group of Muslim refugees. I would post it here, but it's written in German.  

[kelownabomberfan]

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2015/11/15/liberals-fail-canada-with-syrian-refugee-pledge

 

Liberals fail Canada with Syrian refugee pledge    

    

News Item No. 1: One of the terrorists who attacked Paris on Friday night crossed into Europe through the Greek island of Leros disguised as a Syrian refugee a little more than a month ago.

 

News Item No. 2: At the G20 summit in Antalya, Turkey on Sunday morning, Canada’s new Liberal Prime Minister Justin Trudeau reasserted his government’s determination to bring 25,000 Syrian refugees to Canada in the next six weeks without first doing security checks.

 

In light of Friday’s horrific, murderous terror attacks in the French capital, there is only one word for the Liberals’ stubborn insistence on carrying through with their feel-good refugee promise: insane.

 

Canada should help alleviate the Syrian refugee crisis. We are a country of tolerance towards immigrants. On a per capita basis, we accept among the most refugees and immigrants in the world.

But to accept a huge influx of people from a region and a faith full of people sworn to destroy us without first screening them for terrorists and extremists in their midst is, frankly, insane.

 

A government’s first duty is to ensure the security of its people and its borders. Nothing else a government does — economic development, social programs, culture — compares.

 

Sso the Liberals are falling down on their number one duty within their first month in office simply because they refuse to abandon their touchy-feely refugee pledge.

Their stance is part naivety: Islam is not the problem. What is needed to stop ISIS and other Islamic extremists is a hug, respect for their beliefs and an apology for Western aggression.

 

It is also part arrogance: Their approach is superior. They can see better than everyone what needs to be done. Their good will shines so brightly that ISIS and others cannot help but see it and reciprocate.

 

There is also more than a little political correctness stirred in: We must drop our guard in order to show beyond a doubt that we are not racist, imperialist or doubtful about multiculturalism.

 

None of that, though, makes the commitment to rush 25,000 Syrians to Canada any less insane, especially in the face of proof from France of the danger of doing so.

Bring 25,000 refugees to Canada, but slow down. Take the time to send Canadian immigration officials to refugee camps in Europe and the Middle East to weed out the extremists there, not here.

 

Do the vetting outside the country if for no other reason than that the Supreme Court has said any refugee claimant on Canadian soil has the same rights as a Canadian citizen. Getting rid of extremists once they arrive here is very difficult.

 

Trudeau and the Liberals may not think we are at war with ISIS, but ISIS certainly believes they are at war with us.

And ISIS believes it is at war with Canada — and not just because our jets are part of the coalition bombing their positions in Iraq and Syria. They are at war with us because of our values and culture, so even after the Liberal government withdraws our jets from the Middle East, ISIS will still see us as the enemy.

They also see us as the enemy because of the Liberals’ refugee policy: Many of the legitimate refugees we will soon be taking are trying to escape ISIS.

For Trudeau and the Liberals to bull ahead is to put Canadians at risk for their party’s conceit.

 

[The Unknown Poster]

TORONTO — As the Liberal government gears up to meet its promise to bring 25,000 government-sponsored Syrian refugees to Canada by the end of 2015, experts say time may be too short to effectively settle refugees and navigate security concerns.

“The numbers are not difficult numbers. The timeline is a difficult timeline,” said Naomi Alboim, a Queen’s University professor and former deputy minister of citizenship in Ontario.

With more than four million Syrian refugees in need, the first order of business will be identifying those to bring to Canada. Government-sponsored refugees are typically referred to Canada by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), which confirms their refugee status and passes on the most urgent cases. Canadian visa officers then review their claims, and put refugees through security checks and health screenings. The process can take months, if not years.

[kelownabomberfan]

If even one terrorist gets through via this Syrian process and then self-detonates Paris-style on a Canadian street, Shiny Pony's government could be in big trouble. It may have to resign.

[PCB]

The viewpoint of homosexuality and Jews is unsubstantiated? Uhhhh okay....whatever you say. As another pointed out you realize that homosexuality can be punishable by death?

 

No you're facts were unsubstantiated. This has been demonstrated. That you refused to post a source, demonstrates how little you understand about debate. And when I went to the effort of reading your source, it did not support what you said. 

No P, we should be careful. You seem to think there is no

Middle ground between minimally vetted mass refugees from an area of the world at war where the enemy has promised to hide among refugees and closing the borders.

There is a middle ground. And as much as you dislike it, it's called common sense.

I agree there is a middle ground, and common sense is a term that has little to no meaning in this context. That you see fit to cast doubt on people much more versed in areas then you because of common sense, demonstrates how little you understand. 

 

I've been civil despite the fact you have insulted and acted childish towards me in this and other threads. But you have posted statements that are demonstrably xenophobic. You clearly take pride in keeping up to date on world events and attempting to understand the underlying issues. Rather then skewering the internet, you owe it to yourself to educate yourself on topics like the history of immigration in Canada, what a legitimate source is and how to form an argument because you have demonstrated an understanding of none of these areas.

[The Unknown Poster]

I have not acted childish toward you at all. You insulted me. I did not insult you. You have a difficult time discussing these issues without being rude. Please grow up.

[The Unknown Poster]

A couple of days after the Paris attacks there was plenty of tough talk from world leaders at the G20 summit of the need for retribution, but Canadian Prime Minster Justin Trudeau did his best to avoid being part of the discussion.

U.S. President Barack Obama was at the forefront of the charge at the G20 Summit in Anyala, Turkey, pushing for coalition forces to be vigilant in the ongoing battle with the Islamic State.

“The skies have been darkened by the horrific attacks that took place in Paris,” Obama said.

The American leader also said, “we will redouble our efforts along with other members of the coalition to bring about a peaceful transition in Syria.”

Obama wasn’t alone as United Nations leader Ban Ki-Moon also spoke of the need for coalition forced to respond to the latest attacks from the Islamic State.

“Our response needs to be robust but always within the rule of law,” he said.

Trudeau stayed away from the tough talk at the summit. The Canadian leader is still planning to withdraw Canadian CF-18 fighter jets from Syria.

When Trudeau spoke with a room full of business leaders he avoided the topic, instead, speaking about infrastructure investment. Later during a working lunch, he pushed world leaders to address climate change.

Trudeau finally spoke on the issue during a meeting with Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto.

“Obviously it’s a topic that we are engaging in with the other leaders as well to ensure continued safety for our citizens,” Trudeau said.

[The Unknown Poster]

Climate change. Lol

[Mark H.]

Climate change. Lol

 

May the greenhouse be with you

[The Unknown Poster]

PCB I'll say this before I move on (until tomorrow anyway). If you took my posts as personally insulting I apologize. I enjoy the discussions and various opinions shared here. I've had my opinion changed and/or expanded in the past from discussions here.

I don't know you and would never Want to be seen as attacking someone. Be well.

[Fatty Liver]

Found a couple articles regarding homosexuality in the Middle East...

 

This one is about a gay Syrian refugee's story told to the U.N...

 

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/gay-syrian-refugee-details-atrocities-landmark-un-meeting-1054031088

 

 

This one is a couple years old and doesn't have Syria specifically but does include all the countries around Syria, so I think it gives a good indication of Syrians' views on homosexuality. And I doubt their views have softened since the poll was done in 2013.

 

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/

 

So what's the difference between their views on homosexuality and the "Christian right", who are already embedded in N.A.???  Neither group is stupid enough to openly attack gays.

[Mark H.]

 

Found a couple articles regarding homosexuality in the Middle East...

 

This one is about a gay Syrian refugee's story told to the U.N...

 

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/gay-syrian-refugee-details-atrocities-landmark-un-meeting-1054031088

 

 

This one is a couple years old and doesn't have Syria specifically but does include all the countries around Syria, so I think it gives a good indication of Syrians' views on homosexuality. And I doubt their views have softened since the poll was done in 2013.

 

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/

 

So what's the difference between their views on homosexuality and the "Christian right", who are already embedded in N.A.???  Neither group is stupid enough to openly attack gays.

 

 

Thank you. That's precisely my point.

[kelownabomberfan]

Climate change. Lol

Putin's response to the Shiny Pony's "pressure" on climate change...

 

 

If you weren't so cute, and so dreamy, I putting you in Gulag....

 

[kelownabomberfan]

 

 

 

So what's the difference between their views on homosexuality and the "Christian right", who are already embedded in N.A.???  Neither group is stupid enough to openly attack gays.

 

 

I like you guys.  I really do.  But honestly, the naivete on this subject is really telling.  Just because our media doesn't have the balls to report on it, doesn't mean that it isn't happening.  Hell, even when it's plain to everyone that the cause of a terrorist attack is "Islamic militants", they still refuse to use those words.  Our media is trapped in fear, fear of retribution from the people Bill Maher talked about in that Youtube video I posted from our politically correct establishment (see some who even post here, using words like xenophobia and racist etc to shout down discussion), and fear of being attacked and killed like Charlie Hebdo.  They can't win.

Ali Muhammad Brown, the radical Muslim accused of murdering four people near Seattle and in New Jersey, has confessed and said the acts were retaliation for U.S. foreign policy. This is no longer solely an Islamist hate crime; it’s an act of Islamist terrorism.

 

It is now believed that Brown’s murder spree began on April 27 with the drive-by shooting of Leroy Henderson in Seattle.

Then on June 1, Brown allegedly murdered two homosexuals near Seattle, Ahmed Said and Dwone Anderson-Young, after he lured them into a trap using a gay dating phone app.

 

The latter two deaths were described as an execution and they were deliberately targeted because of their sexual orientation. It is suspected that he chose Said as a victim because of his Muslim name, making his homosexual lifestyle exponentially more offensive to Brown.

This was the second anti-gay attack by a radical Muslim in the Seattle area this year. Another Islamist tried to burn down a nightclub frequented by gays on New Year’s Eve. Islamist doctrine holds that the punishment for homosexuality is death.

 

Brown escaped to N.J. and murdered Brendan Tevlin on June 25. Four days later, he robbed a man at a coffee shop in Point Pleasant, but spared his life. Brown was apprehended on July 18 at a homeless shelter.

Brown has confessed to the murders and made it clear that he had terroristic motivations. This was not just a hate crime against gays or a typical murder spree. It was an act of terrorism, morally indistinguishable from the Fort Hood shooting or the Boston Marathon bombings.

“[When a] man sees evil, then he must take action against that evil,” he explained.

Brown said that the “evil” he was responding to was U.S. actions towards Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Iran.

“All these lives are taken every single day by America, by this government. So a life for a life,” he said.

Brown said his violence was not purely political in nature. His religious views permitted it. He said, “My mission is my mission between men and my Lord.”

He said his murder of Tevlin, only 19 years old, is a “just kill” because he is an adult male and no women, children or elderly persons were put in danger.

Brown may have links to other Islamist terrorists. He reportedly attended a jihadist training camp in California, but there is no information available that is more specific. The court documents have not confirmed that report.