Paris Attacks

[Mark H.]

France is accepting 30 000 refugees

Do they have a choice?

Does anyone?

[Jacquie]

I haven't read the entire thread but from what I have read it seems the fact that none of the terrorists were refugees has been ignored in the discussion.

[The Unknown Poster]

I haven't read the entire thread but from what I have read it seems the fact that none of the terrorists were refugees has been ignored in the discussion.

I havent seen if this has been changed in the last couple of days but from BBC:

 

Ahmad al-Mohammad, from Idlib in Syria, has been named as one of the attackers involved in Friday's terror attacks in Paris.

His was the name on a Syrian passport found with the remains of one of the attackers, though the man's identity has not yet been verified.

It is believed he entered mainland Europe after arriving by boat on the Greek island of Leros, like many refugees fleeing Syria's civil war.

 

Additionally, other terrorists have entered countries as refugees, perhaps most infamously the Boston Marathon bombers.

 

I'll be honest, as much as I think Trudeau's plan is politically motivated based on how it looks, and I think prudence requires a step back, I am hesitant when I see so many US states determined to ban refugees.  I dont want to embrace a knee-jerk reaction.  In a perfect world, or even a normal world, we should do our part to help people.  However, its not a perfect or normal world.

 

ISIS has said they will hide operatives among refugees.  If it was any other group and any other event, we wouldnt hesitate but to choose more security. 

 

If Trudeau goes ahead with his plan and someone commits a terrorist attack in Canada or the US (entering by means of Canada) who was among these refugees, what would Trudeau say then?  When someone says how they will attack you, you dont shrug and say "odds are long". 

 

How many Arab nations are taking in refugees?  I think some people get this impression that the entire world is bringing in tens of thousands of refugees and us hateful Canadians are wanting to *gasp* fully vet any before we bring them in, and its not true.  Never mind the economic and social issues of bringing in so many.

 

Its a complicated issue.  I'd love to help as many people as possible and accept that they are all good people with no ill intentions.  But if I had to take responsibility for their actions, I couldnt do it.

[Mark H.]

 

I haven't read the entire thread but from what I have read it seems the fact that none of the terrorists were refugees has been ignored in the discussion.

I havent seen if this has been changed in the last couple of days but from BBC:

 

Ahmad al-Mohammad, from Idlib in Syria, has been named as one of the attackers involved in Friday's terror attacks in Paris.

His was the name on a Syrian passport found with the remains of one of the attackers, though the man's identity has not yet been verified.

It is believed he entered mainland Europe after arriving by boat on the Greek island of Leros, like many refugees fleeing Syria's civil war.

 

Additionally, other terrorists have entered countries as refugees, perhaps most infamously the Boston Marathon bombers.

 

I'll be honest, as much as I think Trudeau's plan is politically motivated based on how it looks, and I think prudence requires a step back, I am hesitant when I see so many US states determined to ban refugees.  I dont want to embrace a knee-jerk reaction.  In a perfect world, or even a normal world, we should do our part to help people.  However, its not a perfect or normal world.

 

ISIS has said they will hide operatives among refugees.  If it was any other group and any other event, we wouldnt hesitate but to choose more security. 

 

If Trudeau goes ahead with his plan and someone commits a terrorist attack in Canada or the US (entering by means of Canada) who was among these refugees, what would Trudeau say then?  When someone says how they will attack you, you dont shrug and say "odds are long". 

 

How many Arab nations are taking in refugees?  I think some people get this impression that the entire world is bringing in tens of thousands of refugees and us hateful Canadians are wanting to *gasp* fully vet any before we bring them in, and its not true.  Never mind the economic and social issues of bringing in so many.

 

Its a complicated issue.  I'd love to help as many people as possible and accept that they are all good people with no ill intentions.  But if I had to take responsibility for their actions, I couldnt do it.

 

 

1. The person blew him/her self up - but the passport was still in good condition

 

2. The desire of US governors to ban refugees - is also politically motivated

3. The refugees who will come to Canada have been in UN refugee camps for a few years

4. How many countries are taking in refugees? I would counter that with some other questions - which are merely food for thought

a) How many countries took in Jewish refugees during the Holocaust?  Very few

 

b ) Did people / countries take a risk when they helped Jewish refugees? Absolutely

c) Was it a greater risk than taking in the current refugees?  It's hard to argue otherwise

 

[kelownabomberfan]

 

 

France is accepting 30 000 refugees

Do they have a choice?

 

Does anyone?

 

[kelownabomberfan]

I haven't read the entire thread but from what I have read it seems the fact that none of the terrorists were refugees has been ignored in the discussion.

 

I think that what is at heart here isn't whether the terrorists responsible for one attack in one city were "refugees", or whether the majority of Canadians don't want Canada to accept any "refugees", it's more about Canadians just wanting these "refugees" to be vetted properly, instead of our borders just being opened wide in the name of political correctness, and to appease some liberal bleeding hearts.  There are long term consequences (and potential benefits) whenever a large group of immigrants is allowed in, to the economy and to the culture of a country, and so why not take the time to do the proper security checks?  

 

In the 1970's, Jimmy Carter tried to look like a great guy and allowed in a big flow of Russians without doing much checking, and he imported the roots of what is now the Russian mafia in the US.  The Russians didn't bother to tell him that they had opened their jails and given them all clearance to leave the country.  That's what happens when you let your bleeding heart overweight your brain.

 

I say bring in the Syrians, all we can handle, as long as they are vetted, and there is proper housing for them here.  We have that luxury, to do this vetting properly, as we have an ocean between us and them.  France, Germany, et al in Europe, don't have that option.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

 

I haven't read the entire thread but from what I have read it seems the fact that none of the terrorists were refugees has been ignored in the discussion.

I havent seen if this has been changed in the last couple of days but from BBC:

 

Ahmad al-Mohammad, from Idlib in Syria, has been named as one of the attackers involved in Friday's terror attacks in Paris.

His was the name on a Syrian passport found with the remains of one of the attackers, though the man's identity has not yet been verified.

It is believed he entered mainland Europe after arriving by boat on the Greek island of Leros, like many refugees fleeing Syria's civil war.

 

Additionally, other terrorists have entered countries as refugees, perhaps most infamously the Boston Marathon bombers.

 

I'll be honest, as much as I think Trudeau's plan is politically motivated based on how it looks, and I think prudence requires a step back, I am hesitant when I see so many US states determined to ban refugees.  I dont want to embrace a knee-jerk reaction.  In a perfect world, or even a normal world, we should do our part to help people.  However, its not a perfect or normal world.

 

ISIS has said they will hide operatives among refugees.  If it was any other group and any other event, we wouldnt hesitate but to choose more security. 

 

If Trudeau goes ahead with his plan and someone commits a terrorist attack in Canada or the US (entering by means of Canada) who was among these refugees, what would Trudeau say then?  When someone says how they will attack you, you dont shrug and say "odds are long". 

 

How many Arab nations are taking in refugees?  I think some people get this impression that the entire world is bringing in tens of thousands of refugees and us hateful Canadians are wanting to *gasp* fully vet any before we bring them in, and its not true.  Never mind the economic and social issues of bringing in so many.

 

Its a complicated issue.  I'd love to help as many people as possible and accept that they are all good people with no ill intentions.  But if I had to take responsibility for their actions, I couldnt do it.

 

 

1. The person blew him/her self up - but the passport was still in good condition

 

2. The desire of US governors to ban refugees - is also politically motivated

3. The refugees who will come to Canada have been in UN refugee camps for a few years

4. How many countries are taking in refugees? I would counter that with some other questions - which are merely food for thought

a) How many countries took in Jewish refugees during the Holocaust?  Very few

 

b ) Did people / countries take a risk when they helped Jewish refugees? Absolutely

c) Was it a greater risk than taking in the current refugees?  It's hard to argue otherwise

 

 

If point 1 is to imply some sort of Illuminati conspiracy, count me out.  Every time something bad happens, it's always "our" fault either indirectly (we pissed off the middle east so now they've come to get their revenge) or directly (Bush himself piloted the planes into the WTC and transported off at the last second).

 

Also if this was the first time someone posed as or otherwise was a refugee who committed a terrorist attack in the name of radical Islam, you'd have a point.

 

As KBF stated, its about proper security measures.  This 25,000 plan was a political decision to paint Trudeau as the opposite of the vile, racist Harper.  And you know what, if Harper had won and these attacks happened and if he was bringing in 25,000 refugees, I'd still want him to stand up there and tell us they were taking a long hard look at it.

 

Trudeau seems more interested in maintaining his political vision then using (uh oh) common sense by at least saying "hey, everything is under review and we wont do ANYTHING until Im satisfied that there is a zero risk to Canadians". 

[Mark H.]

I think Harper would have brought those refugees in as well. My understanding is that much of the vetting process has been done - in the refugee camps.

 

It's unfortunate that this has become a political issue.

 

According to MCC (friends recently hosted one of their info sessions) there are other refugees who need our help as well. But it's the Syrian crisis that is getting all the media attention.  Also unfortunate.

[kelownabomberfan]

I think Harper would have brought those refugees in as well. My understanding is that much of the vetting process has been done - in the refugee camps.

 

It's unfortunate that this has become a political issue.

 

According to MCC (friends recently hosted one of their info sessions) there are other refugees who need our help as well. But it's the Syrian crisis that is getting all the media attention.  Also unfortunate.

 

I agree with you here Mark, that there are other refugees that need our attention that are getting back-burnered now because of politics.  All refugees, be they political ones or otherwise, deserve equal treatment.

[The Unknown Poster]

If Im recall (and Ill see if I can find it) didnt one of the Liberal ministers say vetting would be finished after the refugees were here?

 

And I am sure Harper would have taken longer to bring them in. I think Trudeau just wants to say Canada did more, brought in more, faster than anyone else.  And when the interests of safety of Canadians (and our allies) are concerned, perhaps slow and steady is better than fast and flashy.

[Jacquie]

I haven't read the entire thread but from what I have read it seems the fact that none of the terrorists were refugees has been ignored in the discussion.

I havent seen if this has been changed in the last couple of days but from BBC:

Ahmad al-Mohammad, from Idlib in Syria, has been named as one of the attackers involved in Friday's terror attacks in Paris.

His was the name on a Syrian passport found with the remains of one of the attackers, though the man's identity has not yet been verified.

It is believed he entered mainland Europe after arriving by boat on the Greek island of Leros, like many refugees fleeing Syria's civil war.

Additionally, other terrorists have entered countries as refugees, perhaps most infamously the Boston Marathon bombers.

I'll be honest, as much as I think Trudeau's plan is politically motivated based on how it looks, and I think prudence requires a step back, I am hesitant when I see so many US states determined to ban refugees. I dont want to embrace a knee-jerk reaction. In a perfect world, or even a normal world, we should do our part to help people. However, its not a perfect or normal world.

ISIS has said they will hide operatives among refugees. If it was any other group and any other event, we wouldnt hesitate but to choose more security.

If Trudeau goes ahead with his plan and someone commits a terrorist attack in Canada or the US (entering by means of Canada) who was among these refugees, what would Trudeau say then? When someone says how they will attack you, you dont shrug and say "odds are long".

How many Arab nations are taking in refugees? I think some people get this impression that the entire world is bringing in tens of thousands of refugees and us hateful Canadians are wanting to *gasp* fully vet any before we bring them in, and its not true. Never mind the economic and social issues of bringing in so many.

Its a complicated issue. I'd love to help as many people as possible and accept that they are all good people with no ill intentions. But if I had to take responsibility for their actions, I couldnt do it.

They have found something like 16 fake Syrian passports with the same name. I will have lost a link later

[The Unknown Poster]

 

 

I haven't read the entire thread but from what I have read it seems the fact that none of the terrorists were refugees has been ignored in the discussion.

I havent seen if this has been changed in the last couple of days but from BBC:

Ahmad al-Mohammad, from Idlib in Syria, has been named as one of the attackers involved in Friday's terror attacks in Paris.

His was the name on a Syrian passport found with the remains of one of the attackers, though the man's identity has not yet been verified.

It is believed he entered mainland Europe after arriving by boat on the Greek island of Leros, like many refugees fleeing Syria's civil war.

Additionally, other terrorists have entered countries as refugees, perhaps most infamously the Boston Marathon bombers.

I'll be honest, as much as I think Trudeau's plan is politically motivated based on how it looks, and I think prudence requires a step back, I am hesitant when I see so many US states determined to ban refugees. I dont want to embrace a knee-jerk reaction. In a perfect world, or even a normal world, we should do our part to help people. However, its not a perfect or normal world.

ISIS has said they will hide operatives among refugees. If it was any other group and any other event, we wouldnt hesitate but to choose more security.

If Trudeau goes ahead with his plan and someone commits a terrorist attack in Canada or the US (entering by means of Canada) who was among these refugees, what would Trudeau say then? When someone says how they will attack you, you dont shrug and say "odds are long".

How many Arab nations are taking in refugees? I think some people get this impression that the entire world is bringing in tens of thousands of refugees and us hateful Canadians are wanting to *gasp* fully vet any before we bring them in, and its not true. Never mind the economic and social issues of bringing in so many.

Its a complicated issue. I'd love to help as many people as possible and accept that they are all good people with no ill intentions. But if I had to take responsibility for their actions, I couldnt do it.

They have found something like 16 fake Syrian passports with the same name. I will have lost a link later

 

That is very true.  Its very easy to get a fake passport.  Another reason we should insist on strenuous vetting procedures.

[kelownabomberfan]

If Im recall (and Ill see if I can find it) didnt one of the Liberal ministers say vetting would be finished after the refugees were here?

 

And I am sure Harper would have taken longer to bring them in. I think Trudeau just wants to say Canada did more, brought in more, faster than anyone else.  And when the interests of safety of Canadians (and our allies) are concerned, perhaps slow and steady is better than fast and flashy.

 

I was watching Hockey Night in Canada a few months ago and Ron Maclean did a segment on the Muslims that JT's dad allowed in from Uganda in the 1970's that were being persecuted by Idi Amin.  Canada has benefited greatly from that move, as a lot of those families have come here, lived in peace, and prospered, including Naheed Nenshi's parents.  I have seen some people drawing parallels to those Muslims and the Syrian Muslims.  Is there a difference?  I am not sure.  All I ask is that our government do all it can to protect us from radical extremism.  If they can guarantee that they are allowing in 25,000 Naheed Nenshis, then I 100% support this move.

[The Unknown Poster]

If recent events dont give the government a moment of pause, then they are being irresponsible.

[Jacquie]

None of them were refugees. From CTV website:

 

There is evidence the Syrian passport found near the body of one of the Paris attackers is a fake.

 

Following Friday's deadly assault which left 129 people dead, French authorities found a Syrian passport near the body of one of the perpetrators.

 

That passport, with the name Ahmad Al Mohammad, was found beside the body of a man who blew himself up outside the stadium where a soccer match was taking place between France and Germany.

 

In the days since the attack multiple copies of that passport have turned up.

 

A reporter with England's MailOnline bought a forged Syrian passport with that same name.

 

Serbian police have also arrested a person carrying the passport in the name of Ahmad Al Mohammad, with all the same identifying details such as age, height, and place of birth.

 

Authorities believe the passports are all fake, and were forged either in Syria or Turkey. Officials with the European Union agency Frontex, which is responsible for border controls, say the number of people trafficking in fake Syrian passports is rising.

 

Meanwhile two other bombing suspects have been identified as carrying false Turkish passports.

 

Islamic State has frequently said one of its goals is to stop refugees from fleeing Syria by any means possible, and tells refugees they are committing "a major dangerous sin" by attempting to flee the war and entering countries where they will be assimilated or integrated into "Christianity, atheism or liberalism."

 

The group has used photos and video of children who have drowned in its propaganda, telling refugees they are throwing away their "lives and souls" by going to Europe.

 

Four of the five attackers so far identified were French citizens.

 

An international manhunt is underway for 26-year-old Salah Abdeslam, who was born and raised in Belgium. Police believe he took part in the attacks with his two brothers -- one of whom is dead, and the other was arrested and later released.

 

Mohammed Abdeslam later went on television to plead for his brother to surrender to police.

 

 French police are hunting for a second fugitive they say is directly involved in the deadly Paris attacks.

 

Abdelhamid Abaaoud, who was raised in Brussels, is believed to be the mastermind of the assault. 

 

http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/police-believe-attackers-used-forged-passports-to-stigmatize-refugees-1.2662167

[kelownabomberfan]

 

None of them were refugees. From CTV website:

 

 

Actually it looks like most of them were born and raised in France, which is much, much scarier.

[Mark H.]

If Im recall (and Ill see if I can find it) didnt one of the Liberal ministers say vetting would be finished after the refugees were here?

And I am sure Harper would have taken longer to bring them in. I think Trudeau just wants to say Canada did more, brought in more, faster than anyone else. And when the interests of safety of Canadians (and our allies) are concerned, perhaps slow and steady is better than fast and flashy.

I have no idea what Harper's timeline would have been. Measured approaches can run the gamut.

Just another example of how this has become a political issue. I'll say it again - unfortunate

[kelownabomberfan]

I was remembering a story today about how a Church in Winnipeg sponsored a family of Serbian refugees to come to Winnipeg back in the 1990's when Yugoslavia was falling apart.  All was hunky-dory and the family was settling well, until the dad learned that there was a family of Croatians living down the street.  He came to the Church and demanded that they give him money to buy a gun, as he was sure the Croatians living nearby him would try to murder his whole family when they found out he was Serbian.  I believe that they had to move the family away and into a neighbourhood that was ethnically acceptable (no Croats) for the family, as the guy was inconsolable.  This is the kind of baggage that a lot of refugees bring with them when they come here.  It's what made them "refugees" in the first place.  If their own country wasn't an unlivable cesspool of violence and destruction and war, they'd be still living there.  It is up to our society to find a way to end these prejudices so that we all can live in peace with each other, including Serbs and Croats, no matter what is happening back in their old countries.  And that's the problem in Europe, the Muslims emigrating there aren't integrating, and are becoming more and more radicalized, especially the second generation, which is why you had French born radicalized Muslims self-detonating on Friday in Paris.  Something is wrong with the model, and Europe should be our clarion call.

[The Unknown Poster]

I saw something about Trudeau wanting to house refugees on abandoned military complexes and there was reaction that in Winnipeg that would be an area of town with a large Jewish population and how well would that fly.

 

I believe though, that Kappyong is completely unsuitable for housing (or so I had read on another forum talking about ways to use it), so a moot point.  I thought it was a silly argument though... would refugees in a place like Canada really care?  And would Jews in the area really care?  Im neither and my Jewish buddies wouldnt care so I cant say for sure. 

[kelownabomberfan]

https://www.facebook.com/CTVNewsChannel/videos/989181951143136/?pnref=story

[Rich]

I was remembering a story today about how a Church in Winnipeg sponsored a family of Serbian refugees to come to Winnipeg back in the 1990's when Yugoslavia was falling apart.  All was hunky-dory and the family was settling well, until the dad learned that there was a family of Croatians living down the street.  He came to the Church and demanded that they give him money to buy a gun, as he was sure the Croatians living nearby him would try to murder his whole family when they found out he was Serbian.  I believe that they had to move the family away and into a neighbourhood that was ethnically acceptable (no Croats) for the family, as the guy was inconsolable.  This is the kind of baggage that a lot of refugees bring with them when they come here.  It's what made them "refugees" in the first place.  If their own country wasn't an unlivable cesspool of violence and destruction and war, they'd be still living there.  It is up to our society to find a way to end these prejudices so that we all can live in peace with each other, including Serbs and Croats, no matter what is happening back in their old countries.  And that's the problem in Europe, the Muslims emigrating there aren't integrating, and are becoming more and more radicalized, especially the second generation, which is why you had French born radicalized Muslims self-detonating on Friday in Paris.  Something is wrong with the model, and Europe should be our clarion call.

 

I've never heard of any story like this before.  Yes refugees have typically lived a much different life and have seen many things that native Canadians would never experience.  

 

I have friends whose parents came to Canada from Poland.  Stories about how they escaped and ran from the communist regime in the middle of the night.  The times his Father does talk about those times and living there, you can see a certain quiet come over him when he relives those memories. But they are a wonderful addition to the Canadian community and contributing citizens.

 

To suggest that "a lot" of refugees pose these kinds of problems is disingenuous.  There is a certain percentage of the population who exhibit extreme behaviour like this which will be fact whether you are from Croatia, Poland, or Canada.  

 

Canada is historically built upon immigration.  And most immigrants historically are leaving their native Countries for a reason and would carry some kind of "baggage". 

 

I'm also curious if your last sentence is implying that Canada should stop accepting these refugees?

[kelownabomberfan]

 

 

I'm also curious if your last sentence is implying that Canada should stop accepting these refugees?

 

 

Rich - you missed my point entirely.  What I am saying is that our cultural mosaic works for the most part, but as Europe is showing us, it falls apart when you import a large population that refuses to integrate, and just becomes parasitic and violent, for reasons people seem too worried about looking politically incorrect to even discuss.  We can ignore the evidence and continue to watch the bodies pile up on the streets of France in the name of feeling good about ourselves, or we can look at how we currently assimilate immigrants and find ways to make sure they aren't marginalized, or feel that they can continue to practice their old ways, be it to brandish a gun in the face of a family that happens to be from an ethnic group they were persecuted by in their old country, or self-detonating in a theater while yelling Allah Akbar.  I hope that we can get past the name-calling and the nonsense, and focus on the problem.  But it seems like its impossible to even agree that there may be a problem, as people are too scared to break out of the politically correct cocoons they've insulated themselves in.

 

PS - I will admit that I shouldn't have said "a lot" of refugees.  You are correct, my mistake.

[kelownabomberfan]

I saw something about Trudeau wanting to house refugees on abandoned military complexes and there was reaction that in Winnipeg that would be an area of town with a large Jewish population and how well would that fly.

 

I believe though, that Kappyong is completely unsuitable for housing (or so I had read on another forum talking about ways to use it), so a moot point.  I thought it was a silly argument though... would refugees in a place like Canada really care?  And would Jews in the area really care?  Im neither and my Jewish buddies wouldnt care so I cant say for sure. 

 

Word from a Conservative connection here in West Kelowna is that Trudeau has put a strict gag order on his MP's to refrain from talking to the media about the Syrian refugee issue.  If this is true (and I don't expect the "We Love Trudeau" media to report it), how is he doing anything differently than the last guy who was Prime Minister?  Oh right, it's totally ok when Justin does it.

[kelownabomberfan]

The US House of Representatives has voted on a bill that sharply increases the security screening of Syrian and Iraqi refugees, effectively blocking President Barack Obama's refugee settlement plan.

The final vote was 289 in favor, with 137 opposed. Some 48 Democrats, a quarter of the party’s representatives in the House, broke ranks and voted in favor of the bill. Only three Republicans were against.

Following the terrorist attacks in Paris, opposition to hosting Syrian refugees in the US has grown in many states. The US was planning to receive 30,000 refugees from Syria in 2016, after hundreds of thousands flooded Europe this summer. Now 31 states  say they would put a halt on their resettlement or even stop it completely, citing terror concerns.

 

 

It appears that Obama has failed in his bid to bring the Syrian asylum seekers to the US.  Even Democrats are voting against Obama on this one.  Just for the record, I don't agree with this, and I think they are letting hysteria guide them here.  I hope that Canada doesn't follow this lead.

[bigg jay]

The gag order thing would hold more weight if it came from a Liberal source rather than a Conservative one.  

 

It literally took 2 seconds on Google to find a Liberal MP speaking to the "We Love Trudeau" media about this.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/refugee-controversy-in-goose-bay-1.3322572