Post Season Diagnosis & Therapy

[Floyd]

Funny how hiring Tim Burke as DC and then promoting him to HC was generally accepted as a good thing on this board... now he's the second coming of Jim Daley.

[johnzo]

I don't know if O'Shea is a good coach but I gotta ask: what's O'Shea's record with Drew Willy vs. his record without Drew Willy?

It's not O'Shea's fault that his personnel people thought that Brohm and Marve could play at the CFL level and the best WR they could find in the offseason was Darvin Adams. The CFL is not the NHL: great coaching can't compensate much for a lack of talent.

The one thing I'll fault O'Shea is his bringing back MB for another season. And hell, even MB's offense didn't look half bad when Drew Willy was running it. Willy put up some numbers, though he paid a serious price to put up those numbers...

Get an OC who doesn't get his QB killed, bring Nichols back, find some import receivers, and I think we'll be fine.

[White Out]

 

For those who are saying that O'Shea is a good coach, what the hell are you basing that on?? 

rabble rabble rabble! NO WINS!!11!!!

 

you aren't interested in reasons you made up your mind to see everything as negative it's not worth wasting words trying to convince you because you don't like to listen to anything other than your own whargarbl

 

 

 

10/10 post. Good evidence provided. Would read again.

[DR. CFL]

And a pass rush and o line.....on your Christmas list Santa?

[IC Khari]

 

 

 

 

17...

Having draft picks is great but Walters drafting hasn't been stellar.

 

Long term planning is good but it isn't an excuse for not winning today. It's a balancing act... Good teams (Look as Calgary's drafting for example) plan for tomorrow and win today.

 

You certainly have more patience for losing than I do if you'd only fire folks who aren't doing their jobs if you can get get a known upgrade. As much as I'd like an experienced guy, I'd settle for a new GM like Murphy, who's available BTW, rather than a GM who's already proven he can't do the job. Same goes for the HC spot.

 

The reality is that we hired inexperienced people so I am willing to give them a chance to learn on the job as long as they're not a complete clusterfuck (which they aren't) Yes I have more patience than you, but being impatient hasn't worked for 25 years why not try a different approach this time? 

 

I wasn't calling for O'Shea's or Walters heads at the end of last year because they were rookies who were learning on the job. (I didn't think they should have been hired in the first place, but that's another story.) They weren't rookies this year and they provided even worse results.

 

Walters had a lot of good ideas. I like the way he revamped the scouting department and the way he hired more people, but he didn't staff it properly so it hasn't provided the results it should have. I like the idea of hiring more coaches, but I didn't like the choices. I like the idea of keeping our draft picks, but I don't like his drafting. I like that he's been busy in free agency and is willing to spend to get players to come to Winnipeg, but I don't like that he can't tell who's good and who's bad unless they've already played in the CFL (Ex: QB's/backup). Basically, I like the ideas but the execution isn't there. He's had 2.5 years to improve and I don't see much if any improvement.

 

I liked O'Shea the player and O'Shea the special teams coach. I didn't like him as a rookie HC or as a sophomore for that matter. I think that 2 years is enough to figure out if he has it or not and he's come up way short. It shouldn't take total incompetence in all areas of the job to fire him. Missing the playoffs both years should be enough.

 

This isn't the first time we've given a GM a 3rd year. Joe Mack was given 3 and a half. I remember arguing with you, 17, that he should be fired when we missed the playoffs in 2012. IIRC you said that we needed to bring him back for another year for consistency, so no, we aren't trying something new this time. Were doing what we usually do... Hiring inexperience and then keeping them too long when they aren't working out. The only thing we haven't done yet is extend a losing HC so they won't be a 'lame duck' then pay them to be a TSN coach instead of ours.  That could still easily happen in the offseason.

 

Look if Joe Mack hadn't give Tim Burke the head coaching duties he woulda been around a lot longer. O'Shea is a much better coach than Burke. Walters has his work cut out for him I've already said that, but there's really no harm in sticking with these guys for another year. A lot of the problems this past season stem from the offense and given that Willy was out most of the year and they've fired the offensive coordinator who is known to be less than stellar at the job I would suggest that it's not too much of a stretch to think the offense will be improved next season. 

 

 

Milt Stegall ‏@MiltStegallTSN  30m30 minutes ago

Looks like every #CFL team in the west will have a different head coach in charge next season except the #Bombers. Is that a good thing?

4 retweets12 likes

 

 

[Mark F]

10/10 post. Good evidence provided. Would read again.

 

 

lol....

[TrueBlue4ever]

 

For those who are saying that O'Shea is a good coach, what the hell are you basing that on?? 

rabble rabble rabble! NO WINS!!11!!!

 

you aren't interested in reasons you made up your mind to see everything as negative it's not worth wasting words trying to convince you because you don't like to listen to anything other than your own whargarbl

 

TRANSLATION: I have no basis for my position, I just like to sound self-important and pick internet fights. And when challenged to justify my position with facts or sound reasoning rather than just hot air, I ignore the question and turn my attack to the poster rather than addressing the post itself in an attempt to hide my ignorance.

 

This shtick is old. Either back it up and contribute something meaningful to the debate, or go away quietly. Either way, spare us the arrogant "I'm too busy and smart to explain myself to the lesser-minded out there" B.S. 

[TBURGESS]

 

Defense was our strength but not a strength when compared to the other teams. We ranked 8th in most of the big stats.

 

Comparing O'Shea (.333 wins) to Burke (.250 wins) isn't the comparison that we need to do. We need to compare O'Shea to the other HC's in the league right now and he doesn't fair well at all.

 

That's a tired argument that I absolutely do not like. Statistics are like a bikini, what they reveal is tantalizing but what they conceal is vital. Here's what I know from watching the games... there were a hell of a lot of games that were winnable with even an average offensive output, we didn't get that. We were lucky in a lot of games to even get a good quarter out of the O let alone a good game. It's the CFL afterall, sometimes you still have to be able to score your way out of trouble, our team failed to do that. The D wasn't perfect but it was good enough and if they can get some better DL I'd have no trouble seeing them get better without too much trouble. 

 

You're comparing O'Shea to one of the worst HC's we've ever had. Sure, he's better than Burke but who cares? Unless he's better than the HC's of the teams ahead of us and that's 7 teams, it won't matter much.

 

You're tired of using stats because they don't work in your favor. I watched the same games and I saw a defense that gave up a ton of yards and a ton of first downs and that wasn't just after they got tired. They couldn't get themselves off the field very often. The best thing they did was force teams into FG's instead of TD's but that wasn't enough for us to beat any of the top 5 teams. 

 

Of course we need a better offense and we're all hopeful that a new OC will be able to give that to us but it's not the only problem on the team.

[White Out]

I'd also like to know what our score differential is like in the 1st and 2nd half. It's only anecdotal at this point, but doesn't it feel like we were outscored huge in the 2nd half for the last 2 years? This is a prime symptom of being out coached. Our opponents are being coached up at the half and adjustments are totally out flanking our guy. What do you expect when you give a special teams coordinator a head coaching job after just a few years?

[17to85]

 

 

For those who are saying that O'Shea is a good coach, what the hell are you basing that on?? 

rabble rabble rabble! NO WINS!!11!!!

 

you aren't interested in reasons you made up your mind to see everything as negative it's not worth wasting words trying to convince you because you don't like to listen to anything other than your own whargarbl

 

TRANSLATION: I have no basis for my position, I just like to sound self-important and pick internet fights. And when challenged to justify my position with facts or sound reasoning rather than just hot air, I ignore the question and turn my attack to the poster rather than addressing the post itself in an attempt to hide my ignorance.

 

This shtick is old. Either back it up and contribute something meaningful to the debate, or go away quietly. Either way, spare us the arrogant "I'm too busy and smart to explain myself to the lesser-minded out there" B.S. 

 

No I'm just dropping down to that particular posters level. Have you ever seen him post anything after a win? He only shows up to ***** and moan and never provides any substance. Some people simply aren't worth the time or effort and deserve only derision. 

[Goalie]

Does it really matter what anyone says? I mean, not really. It's pretty obvious with statements like " what do you expect when you give a special teams coordinator a head coaching job after a few years?" and things of that nature that... it really doesn't matter what anyone says does it? 

[17to85]

 

 

Defense was our strength but not a strength when compared to the other teams. We ranked 8th in most of the big stats.

 

Comparing O'Shea (.333 wins) to Burke (.250 wins) isn't the comparison that we need to do. We need to compare O'Shea to the other HC's in the league right now and he doesn't fair well at all.

 

That's a tired argument that I absolutely do not like. Statistics are like a bikini, what they reveal is tantalizing but what they conceal is vital. Here's what I know from watching the games... there were a hell of a lot of games that were winnable with even an average offensive output, we didn't get that. We were lucky in a lot of games to even get a good quarter out of the O let alone a good game. It's the CFL afterall, sometimes you still have to be able to score your way out of trouble, our team failed to do that. The D wasn't perfect but it was good enough and if they can get some better DL I'd have no trouble seeing them get better without too much trouble. 

 

You're comparing O'Shea to one of the worst HC's we've ever had. Sure, he's better than Burke but who cares? Unless he's better than the HC's of the teams ahead of us and that's 7 teams, it won't matter much.

 

You're tired of using stats because they don't work in your favor. I watched the same games and I saw a defense that gave up a ton of yards and a ton of first downs and that wasn't just after they got tired. They couldn't get themselves off the field very often. The best thing they did was force teams into FG's instead of TD's but that wasn't enough for us to beat any of the top 5 teams. 

 

Of course we need a better offense and we're all hopeful that a new OC will be able to give that to us but it's not the only problem on the team.

 

I put most of the troubles of this team on the plate of the talent as opposed to the coaching that's the big difference here. Stats are flawed, you should know that. Use your eyes, you can see the D did enough to win games with any kind of support, but they didn't get it. You and I both know that you can't win with just defence in the CFL. Edmonton had arguably the best D in the league but they still had an offense that was capable of doing something. Hamilton had another of the top defenses but when Collaros went down their winning ways left pretty quick too right? No defense will consistently win games for a team, they might win a few but none will carry an offense as sad sack as the Bombers for more than a handful of games. To me Bellefeuille was the only coach that was flat out terrible and he's gone now. Now it's up to them to hire a good candidate at the position and get some more talent for the existing coaches to work with.

[White Out]

Does it really matter what anyone says? I mean, not really. It's pretty obvious with statements like " what do you expect when you give a special teams coordinator a head coaching job after a few years?" and things of that nature that... it really doesn't matter what anyone says does it? 

 

What a cop out. Suggesting someone is under qualified and was the wrong hire is what's known as an "argument".

[TBURGESS]

 

 

I put most of the troubles of this team on the plate of the talent as opposed to the coaching that's the big difference here. Stats are flawed, you should know that. Use your eyes, you can see the D did enough to win games with any kind of support, but they didn't get it. You and I both know that you can't win with just defence in the CFL. Edmonton had arguably the best D in the league but they still had an offense that was capable of doing something. Hamilton had another of the top defenses but when Collaros went down their winning ways left pretty quick too right? No defense will consistently win games for a team, they might win a few but none will carry an offense as sad sack as the Bombers for more than a handful of games. To me Bellefeuille was the only coach that was flat out terrible and he's gone now. Now it's up to them to hire a good candidate at the position and get some more talent for the existing coaches to work with.

 

Stats are a good starting point, not the be all and end all. Defenses have won lots of games. Edmonton's defense won most of the games that Reilly didn't play in. Hamilton's defense won games for them too and almost won them the eastern playoff.  BTW: Hammy lost way more than just Collaros they were down to their 4th string QB by the end of the year.

 

I can't argue that MB is a terrible coach.  I blame O'Shea for hiring him in the first place and for not firing him after his first season. I agree that we need to upgrade the talent level on offense. I blame Walters for that because he's the one in charge of providing the talent. To me MB, Tracey and Etch were all terrible coaches and they were all hired by O'Shea.

[johnzo]

Etch was like our eighth choice of DC candidates, right? Because we couldn't get the people we liked better to join us?

At that point the choice for DC was between Etch and Samcanadian.

[17to85]

 

 

I put most of the troubles of this team on the plate of the talent as opposed to the coaching that's the big difference here. Stats are flawed, you should know that. Use your eyes, you can see the D did enough to win games with any kind of support, but they didn't get it. You and I both know that you can't win with just defence in the CFL. Edmonton had arguably the best D in the league but they still had an offense that was capable of doing something. Hamilton had another of the top defenses but when Collaros went down their winning ways left pretty quick too right? No defense will consistently win games for a team, they might win a few but none will carry an offense as sad sack as the Bombers for more than a handful of games. To me Bellefeuille was the only coach that was flat out terrible and he's gone now. Now it's up to them to hire a good candidate at the position and get some more talent for the existing coaches to work with.

 

Stats are a good starting point, not the be all and end all. Defenses have won lots of games. Edmonton's defense won most of the games that Reilly didn't play in. Hamilton's defense won games for them too and almost won them the eastern playoff.  BTW: Hammy lost way more than just Collaros they were down to their 4th string QB by the end of the year.

 

I can't argue that MB is a terrible coach.  I blame O'Shea for hiring him in the first place and for not firing him after his first season. I agree that we need to upgrade the talent level on offense. I blame Walters for that because he's the one in charge of providing the talent. To me MB, Tracey and Etch were all terrible coaches and they were all hired by O'Shea.

 

Here is where we disagree, I understand why they opted to keep Bellefool (I disagreed with the move last offseason). They thought they could spend on the OL and improve protection and didn't want to give Willy yet another offense to learn. That's not horrendous logic and better talent is always going to help an offense no matter who the coach is. It didn't work and they fired Bellefool so it's not like they don't see where issues are, they just don't make the instant moves some people want. 

[TBURGESS]

 

 

 

I put most of the troubles of this team on the plate of the talent as opposed to the coaching that's the big difference here. Stats are flawed, you should know that. Use your eyes, you can see the D did enough to win games with any kind of support, but they didn't get it. You and I both know that you can't win with just defence in the CFL. Edmonton had arguably the best D in the league but they still had an offense that was capable of doing something. Hamilton had another of the top defenses but when Collaros went down their winning ways left pretty quick too right? No defense will consistently win games for a team, they might win a few but none will carry an offense as sad sack as the Bombers for more than a handful of games. To me Bellefeuille was the only coach that was flat out terrible and he's gone now. Now it's up to them to hire a good candidate at the position and get some more talent for the existing coaches to work with.

 

Stats are a good starting point, not the be all and end all. Defenses have won lots of games. Edmonton's defense won most of the games that Reilly didn't play in. Hamilton's defense won games for them too and almost won them the eastern playoff.  BTW: Hammy lost way more than just Collaros they were down to their 4th string QB by the end of the year.

 

I can't argue that MB is a terrible coach.  I blame O'Shea for hiring him in the first place and for not firing him after his first season. I agree that we need to upgrade the talent level on offense. I blame Walters for that because he's the one in charge of providing the talent. To me MB, Tracey and Etch were all terrible coaches and they were all hired by O'Shea.

 

Here is where we disagree, I understand why they opted to keep Bellefool (I disagreed with the move last offseason). They thought they could spend on the OL and improve protection and didn't want to give Willy yet another offense to learn. That's not horrendous logic and better talent is always going to help an offense no matter who the coach is. It didn't work and they fired Bellefool so it's not like they don't see where issues are, they just don't make the instant moves some people want. 

 

MB failed for half a season in Wpg before they MO hired him and MB made Anthony freakin Calvillo look like he was done. We kept him for continuity after 1.5 years of failure so Willy didn't have to learn another offense? It would have been significantly better to have Willy learn an offense where he didn't take a huge beating game in and game out. Might/Likely saved our season last year. Figuring out that Tracey wasn't going to get the job done after 1 season might have saved our last season too. That's a big part of O'Shea's job to know what's working and what isn't and to make the tough decisions.

[johnzo]

Answering my own question from earlier: O'Shea's record when Willy makes it to the third quarter: 9-13. When Willy doesn't make it to the third quarter: 3-11.

The three non-Willy wins are two 2015 Nichols wins and the Marve 2014 come-from-behind snow-bowl win in Calgary.

[White Out]

Answering my own question from earlier: O'Shea's record when Willy makes it to the third quarter: 9-13. When Willy doesn't make it to the third quarter: 3-11.

The three wins are two 2015 Nichols wins and the Marve 2014 come-from-behind snow-bowl win in Calgary.

4 games below 500 when he has his starter. Quite an accomplished coach we have.

/sarcasm

[Mr Dee]

Do you see any other explanation in there somewhere?

[Mark F]

needlessly inflammatory post deleted.

[blitzmore]

 

 

 

 

I put most of the troubles of this team on the plate of the talent as opposed to the coaching that's the big difference here. Stats are flawed, you should know that. Use your eyes, you can see the D did enough to win games with any kind of support, but they didn't get it. You and I both know that you can't win with just defence in the CFL. Edmonton had arguably the best D in the league but they still had an offense that was capable of doing something. Hamilton had another of the top defenses but when Collaros went down their winning ways left pretty quick too right? No defense will consistently win games for a team, they might win a few but none will carry an offense as sad sack as the Bombers for more than a handful of games. To me Bellefeuille was the only coach that was flat out terrible and he's gone now. Now it's up to them to hire a good candidate at the position and get some more talent for the existing coaches to work with.

 

Stats are a good starting point, not the be all and end all. Defenses have won lots of games. Edmonton's defense won most of the games that Reilly didn't play in. Hamilton's defense won games for them too and almost won them the eastern playoff.  BTW: Hammy lost way more than just Collaros they were down to their 4th string QB by the end of the year.

 

I can't argue that MB is a terrible coach.  I blame O'Shea for hiring him in the first place and for not firing him after his first season. I agree that we need to upgrade the talent level on offense. I blame Walters for that because he's the one in charge of providing the talent. To me MB, Tracey and Etch were all terrible coaches and they were all hired by O'Shea.

 

Here is where we disagree, I understand why they opted to keep Bellefool (I disagreed with the move last offseason). They thought they could spend on the OL and improve protection and didn't want to give Willy yet another offense to learn. That's not horrendous logic and better talent is always going to help an offense no matter who the coach is. It didn't work and they fired Bellefool so it's not like they don't see where issues are, they just don't make the instant moves some people want. 

 

MB failed for half a season in Wpg before they MO hired him and MB made Anthony freakin Calvillo look like he was done. We kept him for continuity after 1.5 years of failure so Willy didn't have to learn another offense? It would have been significantly better to have Willy learn an offense where he didn't take a huge beating game in and game out. Might/Likely saved our season last year. Figuring out that Tracey wasn't going to get the job done after 1 season might have saved our last season too. That's a big part of O'Shea's job to know what's working and what isn't and to make the tough decisions.

 

He has made the tough decisions...He has fired three coaches..what else to you want him to do...resign?

[Atomic]

needlessly inflammatory post deleted.

What happened to you Mark? You used to be such a nice guy.

[iso_55]

Murphy has been passed over a few times. Sounds like he might be again. Why is that?

Looks like the Riders want to make a splash, that's why. 

[NotoriousBIG]

Our coaching is mediocre. But our talent is way below average.

 

If we dump Walters and hire Murphy we are instantly better.

 

But thats not the Bomber way. #friendsfirst