Star Wars: Spoiler Thread Discussion

[Logan007]

It's not that they don't want Kasdan, it's that he's done with it...for now anyway. I think they have some decent writers to take over where he left off anyway. 

And yes, Rian will have his limits, but JJ has read the script and said there is some good weird stuff in it. But I'm sure it will keep in tone. I'm thinking the weird stuff will be him really delving into the force. After all, I'm guessing this movie will focus a lot on training both Rey and Kylo (by different masters of course). Man, I can't wait for episode 8. 

[The Unknown Poster]

35 minutes ago, Logan007 said:

It's not that they don't want Kasdan, it's that he's done with it...for now anyway. I think they have some decent writers to take over where he left off anyway. 

And yes, Rian will have his limits, but JJ has read the script and said there is some good weird stuff in it. But I'm sure it will keep in tone. I'm thinking the weird stuff will be him really delving into the force. After all, I'm guessing this movie will focus a lot on training both Rey and Kylo (by different masters of course). Man, I can't wait for episode 8. 

Great point.  We will probably get scenes of both training and the opposing philosophies.  Should be very cool.

I liked the subtle references/easter eggs.  The Falcon's issue being a bad motivator (same issue it had in...Empire?).  Maz described the Force very similar to how Kenobi did in A New Hope (no mention of MidiChlorians).

The old guy at the beginning saying they need the Jedi to maintain "balance in the force". 

[The Unknown Poster]

I just saw this mentioned in another site and it was weird to me too.

How many people were jolted by the lack of 20th Century Fanfare at the beginning of the film?  We knew it would be missing ofcourse but Disney had created a different "fanfare" for the digital releases but didnt use it here.  The film just started.

The old fanfare almost seemed like part of Star Wars.

Also, Cineplex should lower the price if we have to sit through ten minutes of commercials.  It was really long.  I remember when commercials in front of films started and they were like unique "big" commercials.  Now they are just generic stupid ads.  Then they play a long ad for Cineplex!  Im already here!  Ugh

And only two trailers in my showing (I like the trailers).  Captain America and Batman V Superman.  No Star Trek in the 3D showing.

[The Unknown Poster]

Word is Harrison Ford got paid $16m plus 0.5% of the gross.  Nice money.

Also read an interesting new theory about Rey.  She *is* Luke's daughter but it was Kylo that hid her.  In her vision she sees Kylo and the Knights of the Ren slaughter a bunch of people.  Let's assume that is the Jedi Academy.  It appears Kylo also kills one of his own people during that period and Rey is laying before him.  So they go to slaughter the padawans, perhaps even Luke's wife but Kylo cant bring himself to kill Rey.  Either because he loves her or because he wants to use her later (the idea the Sith are always planning to screw their master).

Kylo leaves her on Jakku.  When he later hears Finn and BB-8 escaped Jakku "with a girl", he flips out.  There was a line heard in the trailer but cut from the film where he says to her (I think it was him or perhaps someone else) "Is it true, are you really just a scavenger?" 

Luke's expression is hard to read at the end but its emotional.  Is it a sense that he's seeing his now grown up daughter he thought was dead?  Would also explain why Snoke wanted Kylo to bring her before him (in much the same way Palpatine wants Vader to bring Luke before him) and why Kylo offers to train her in the ways of the Force.  He was probably quickly realising that she wasnt just a little girl he hid for her own protection...the force was strong in her.

If the film keeps the idea of Jedi Padawans being trained from a very early age, she was old enough to have begun training.  And perhaps the fact she became pretty adept at using the Force once Kylo "triggered" something in her with the attempted mind screw could be because she was trained and those memories/skills were repressed.  She referred to Luke Skywalker as a "myth" and recognized Han Solo as a "smuggler" when Finn recognized him as the Rebel General.

I love the speculation.  Only 17 months to go...

[17to85]

Saw the movie last night, I enjoyed it. The only gripe I have is that Kylo Ren didn't come across as an intimidating bad guy to me, just as a pouty boy. Maybe that's intentional the way they set up the finish his training line but compared to Vader in the original movies just no real sense that this was someone you didn't want to **** with. I did appreciate the touch with him dealing with Han though. That's a good way to make people dislike him. Still not sold on the actor though. The actors for Rey and Finn though did a great job. It's nice to have fun at the movies. 

[The Unknown Poster]

7 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Saw the movie last night, I enjoyed it. The only gripe I have is that Kylo Ren didn't come across as an intimidating bad guy to me, just as a pouty boy. Maybe that's intentional the way they set up the finish his training line but compared to Vader in the original movies just no real sense that this was someone you didn't want to **** with. I did appreciate the touch with him dealing with Han though. That's a good way to make people dislike him. Still not sold on the actor though. The actors for Rey and Finn though did a great job. It's nice to have fun at the movies. 

I do think Kylo's character was intentional.  He was portrayed as weaker than you'd expect and angry and prone to outbursts.  His saber skills were lacking.  He twice trashed his room out of anger/frustration (temper tantrum).  He was spoken down to by Hux (in somewhat of a nod to Vader/Tarkin) and seemed all pouty/angry when talking to Snoke at one point.

I think we're supposed to take this as him being immature and "torn apart" inside.  He was calm when speaking top Vader.  The "Kylo" character is what he wants to be..."Ben" is who he really is.  And he had to make a choice at the end.  I wonder if we will see him grow in power next film or if he will always show the "human" insecurities.

In some ways he had a lot of Anakin from Revenge in him (which I assume is by design) and a bit of Luke from ANH.  I think its possible he never becomes the Vader-like bad guy.  We might see that transformation or we might see him struck down/turned back at some point where Snoke is the bigger evil (keep in mind Benicio Del Toro is cast as a "villain" in the next one too).

And I agree about fun.  Had a smile on my face the whole movie...from "Luke Skywalker has vanished" (what a way to summarize the series...I could see JJ using that line to pitch the films) to the final scene of Luke & Rey.  Magnificent.

[17to85]

Yeah I certainly agree that there's lots of growth for the character. Just seems kind of lame that he got pwned by a total noob. 

[bigg jay]

19 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

In some ways he had a lot of Anakin from Revenge in him (which I assume is by design) and a bit of Luke from ANH.  I think its possible he never becomes the Vader-like bad guy. 

This is how I saw him too.  Anakin was a pouty boy too who eventually became Vader but there was a 20-ish year gap between Revenge & New Hope so those two characters were quite different.  We'll see where they go with Kylo... it's clear he strives to follow in Vader's footsteps but whether or not he can do it, remains to be seen.

[The Unknown Poster]

2 minutes ago, bigg jay said:

This is how I saw him too.  Anakin was a pouty boy too who eventually became Vader but there was a 20-ish year gap between Revenge & New Hope so those two characters were quite different.  We'll see where they go with Kylo... it's clear he strives to follow in Vader's footsteps but whether or not he can do it, remains to be seen.

Lucas showed us Anakin from a point we didnt care about and stopped right when we started caring.  Seems JJ and KK are showing us Kylo from a point we do care about and perhaps will show us his evolution from "Ben" to Kylo in a way we never saw with Anakin becoming Vader.

There are rumors of Hayden Christiansen in Episode VIII and if we are going to see Kylo trained in the Sith way and Rey trained in the Jedi way it would make sense to see some Force Ghosts.  I still think Kylo speaking to Vader is important.  He said something like "show me again" or "show me one more time" the power of the dark side.  When the camera panned around I half expected to see Kylo watching old video of Anakins bad deeds.  It definitely hints that Vader is guiding him.  I think Snoke is either manipulating Anakin's ghost or making an Anakin vision appear to Kylo.

Kylo calling him Grandfather shows an emotional connection.  What would turn Ben against his Uncle?  Well, if he was seeing visions of Anakin showing him the dark side perhaps...

[bigg jay]

5 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Yeah I certainly agree that there's lots of growth for the character. Just seems kind of lame that he got pwned by a total noob. 

I agree that Kylo didn't come off as strong as maybe he should have but he was injured and maybe Rey was in his head a little bit.  He looked a bit rattled when he couldn't use mind control on her & when he told Snoke how strong the force was with her.

[The Unknown Poster]

Apparently in the novel when Rey Force calls Luke's saber near the end, Kylo turns to her and explains "it IS you".  So that act confirms to him that she is who he suspected.  Which means he knew her all along.  The word is, whatever is in the novelization was originally in the script.  They cut a lot out when they decided to save Rey's back story for the next film.

The question is, why doesnt Luke sense she is alive?  Is it because Kylo repressed her memories?  When he's mind screwing her he refers to an island and ocean, foreshadowing where Luke is found.  Luke isnt in any sort of defensive posture when she arrives.  Surely he has sensed her arrival.  To me his expression is either at seeing HER face (ie. he sensed someone but didnt know it was her) or he knew it was her but the surprise/emotion was in seeing his light saber and what that means.

If Obi Wan is speaking to her, cant we presume he'd be speaking to Luke?  Unless there is an explanation for why Obi Wan, Yoda and Anakin stop appearing to Luke.

[tacklewasher]

I found Kylo to be far more believable than him being a total badass. I liked the temper tantrum kid still growing up and conflicted. It worked for me. Much better than Anakin ever did.

[Rich]

Overall I was a big fan of the movie as well.

I did have a Spaceballs moment when Kylo took the mask off and we found out he didn't have to wear it, but I totally flashed to Rick Moranis taking off his helmet and saying he can't breathe in that thing.

[17to85]

1 hour ago, Rich said:

Overall I was a big fan of the movie as well.

I did have a Spaceballs moment when Kylo took the mask off and we found out he didn't have to wear it, but I totally flashed to Rick Moranis taking off his helmet and saying he can't breathe in that thing.

plus one of the storm troopers in the beginning clearly had Spaceballs, the flame thrower!

[tacklewasher]

LOL at both of you.

[tacklewasher]

 

 

[Logan007]

2 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Yeah I certainly agree that there's lots of growth for the character. Just seems kind of lame that he got pwned by a total noob. 

Remember, Rey was already skilled with using her staff.  Some of that skill will easily translate into using the saber.  Then when the force "awoke" in her, it helped her to be even better.

And there is a book out called "Before the Awakening" that explains how Finn was trained to use that same weapon that the other Stormtrooper had that he fought.  Couple that with the fact that Kylo was hurt and you understand how he was beaten.

[The Unknown Poster]

Kylo's swordplay was pretty basic too.  Lots of clubbing swings.  In some respect similar to Luke who never seemed to be a very expert swordsman either.

[Rich]

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/star-wars-writers-explain-everything-kylo-ren-turn-150202788.html

A few interesting quotes in this article on the evolution of Kylo Ren and killing Han.

 

Quote

Director J.J. Abrams, along with writers Lawrence Kasdan and Michael Arndt, revealed during a Q&A session after a screening why they decided to kill Han Solo, Entertainment Weekly reveals.

“Star Wars had the greatest villain in cinema history. So, how you bring a new villain into that world is a very tricky thing,” Abrams said. “We knew we needed to do something f***ing bold. The only reason Kylo Ren has any hope of being a worthy successor is because we lose one of the most beloved characters.

“Long before we had this title, the idea of The Force Awakens was that this would become the evolution of not just a hero, but a villain,” the director said. “And not a villain who was the finished, ready-made villain, but someone who was in process.”

“All of us bring our own experiences to it,” Abrams said. “As a father, as a friend to people who have children, I know what it’s like to see struggle, to be part of struggle. I know how painful it can be. I know how real it is. And this is, of course, an insane extrapolated version. Patricide is not ideal.”

“It’s this massive tradeoff,” the director added about Han’s death. “How can we possibly do that!? But… if we hadn’t done that, the movie wouldn’t have any guts at all. It felt very dangerous.”

Michael Arndt, who helped create the story before Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan wrote the script for the movie, revealed that he didn’t want Han to be an unnecessary addition to The Force Awakens.

“‘What is Han doing in this movie?’ If we’re not going to have something important and irreversible happen to him, then he kind of feels like luggage,” Abrams said. “He feels like this great, sexy piece of luggage you have in your movie. But he’s not really evolving. He’s not really pushing the story forward.”

 

[Logan007]

2 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Apparently in the novel when Rey Force calls Luke's saber near the end, Kylo turns to her and explains "it IS you".  So that act confirms to him that she is who he suspected.  Which means he knew her all along.  The word is, whatever is in the novelization was originally in the script.  They cut a lot out when they decided to save Rey's back story for the next film.

The question is, why doesnt Luke sense she is alive?  Is it because Kylo repressed her memories?  When he's mind screwing her he refers to an island and ocean, foreshadowing where Luke is found.  Luke isnt in any sort of defensive posture when she arrives.  Surely he has sensed her arrival.  To me his expression is either at seeing HER face (ie. he sensed someone but didnt know it was her) or he knew it was her but the surprise/emotion was in seeing his light saber and what that means.

If Obi Wan is speaking to her, cant we presume he'd be speaking to Luke?  Unless there is an explanation for why Obi Wan, Yoda and Anakin stop appearing to Luke.

Perhaps Luke is allowing her to take her own journey, just as he had.  She needed to come find him, not the other way around.  The journey is for the student to make.  When he turns to face her he's filled with emotion that his daughter is before him.

We don't know that they're not speaking to Luke.  So many questions...so far away.

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, Logan007 said:

Perhaps Luke is allowing her to take her own journey, just as he had.  She needed to come find him, not the other way around.  The journey is for the student to make.  When he turns to face her he's filled with emotion that his daughter is before him.

We don't know that they're not speaking to Luke.  So many questions...so far away.

That is a good point.  I've seen that speculated too.  That Luke training Kylo and him turning to the dark side might tell Luke that the Jedi way of training young force sensitive kids is a path to the dark side.  That you can tell a kid is force sensitive but you cant predict their future.  In The Phantom Menace, Mace Windu and Yoda both sense Anakin was dangerous.  But they gave in to Qui Gon and Kenobi's desire to train him.

Luke gave in to Leia's desire to train Kylo.

Perhaps he left to be in exile until the force brought someone to him.  Perhaps his surprise at the end is that the "chosen one" (argh) was Rey.

One thing I really enjoyed was the film makers conscious decision to give us some information while keeping so much back.  Its fun to speculate and will be more fun to see the answers.

Another idea is that Rey is a Kenobi.  When she touches the light saber, she hears many voices but its Obi Wan's voice that speaks directly to her.  Not Anakin's. 

[Logan007]

Yeah, but if this is the story about the Skywalker family, then Ren will need to be saved.  Plus she doesn't remind me of Kenobi at all.  And I also don't think Kenobi would have ever turned his back on one of the rules like having relations.  Who knows.  She reminds me more of Anakin as the mechanic/fixer along with the innocence of Luke.  But I could be totally wrong.

[17to85]

1 hour ago, Logan007 said:

Remember, Rey was already skilled with using her staff.  Some of that skill will easily translate into using the saber.  Then when the force "awoke" in her, it helped her to be even better.

And there is a book out called "Before the Awakening" that explains how Finn was trained to use that same weapon that the other Stormtrooper had that he fought.  Couple that with the fact that Kylo was hurt and you understand how he was beaten.

I guess what I just don't like is that it seemed that he became less competent as the movie went on eventually losing to a noob. I think there was probably a way to accomplish the same story telling without making him come across as a total *****.  The fight with Finn was fine no problems there, Finn got beaten pretty cleanly as you'd expect. 

It's nit picking anyway, I did enjoy the movie and can see a lot of potential for the next instalment. 

[The Unknown Poster]

2 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

I guess what I just don't like is that it seemed that he became less competent as the movie went on eventually losing to a noob. I think there was probably a way to accomplish the same story telling without making him come across as a total *****.  The fight with Finn was fine no problems there, Finn got beaten pretty cleanly as you'd expect. 

It's nit picking anyway, I did enjoy the movie and can see a lot of potential for the next instalment. 

I didnt see it that way.  They made the point of showing him being badly injured.  He whooped Finn.  And he was beating Rey (and Im not sure he wasnt toying with her in much the same way Vader was somewhat toying with Luke in Empire while taunting and suggesting they turn).  She clearly "used the force" to over come him.

I think the point was to show how strong in the force she was and once she let herself go, she was able to either use the force or call upon repressed memories of Jedi training.  Kylo, injured and surprised, was overcome.  I was okay with it.

My biggest issues were the monster chase scene when the Falcon was reclaimed by Han (thought it was irrelevant) and Poe immediately telling Finn the Resistance's master plan of finding Luke.  If Finn had been a double agent, Poe just told him the plan and where the map was hidden.

[bb.king]

A little off topic as this relates to episode's I-III, but here is an interesting article on how all of the necessary plot points were there to make it a great trilogy, but George Lucas completely missed almost all of them. I think that's what makes those movies so annoying and frustrating to fans - all of the necessary ingredients were available, but Lucas sc***ed it up.

http://www.gamesradar.com/george-lucas-nearly-wrote-perfect-prequel-trilogy-he-just-didnt-seem-notice/

I wonder if, now that Disney owns the rights, if they might reboot that part one day. Would be neat to see episode's I-III made properly.