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[Atomic]

I think it's also worth pointing out that the dangers faced by law enforcement and emergency responders are not just physical ones.  Seeing dead bodies, abused children, and other atrocities is actually quite common and takes a heavy toll on the mental health of many of these workers.  So while every cop might not have been in a gunfight, almost all have found themselves involved in some kind of disturbing situation.

[nate007]

43 minutes ago, Atomic said:

I think it's also worth pointing out that the dangers faced by law enforcement and emergency responders are not just physical ones.  Seeing dead bodies, abused children, and other atrocities is actually quite common and takes a heavy toll on the mental health of many of these workers.  So while every cop might not have been in a gunfight, almost all have found themselves involved in some kind of disturbing situation.

In that case, social workers are severely underpaid when compared to cops (well, maybe not the bodies, but everything else you mentioned applies).

[blue_gold_84]

20 minutes ago, nate007 said:

In that case, social workers are severely underpaid when compared to cops (well, maybe not the bodies, but everything else you mentioned applies).

That's quite the apples and oranges comparison. Law enforcement is not the same as social work.

[Atomic]

25 minutes ago, nate007 said:

In that case, social workers are severely underpaid when compared to cops (well, maybe not the bodies, but everything else you mentioned applies).

I don't think it's quite at the same level but without knowing how much "social workers" get paid I cannot form an opinion either way about their salaries.

[bigg jay]

Depending on their job classification & seniority, a Manitoba social worker can make anywhere between 43k & 95k according to their current collective agreement.

[Atomic]

9 minutes ago, bigg jay said:

Depending on their job classification & seniority, a Manitoba social worker can make anywhere between 43k & 95k according to their current collective agreement.

Seems reasonable.

[Rich]

Saw this article today and thought it was pertinent to this discussion.  I'm not sure how much a police officer should get paid, but I do know the chances of me coming into contact with something like this that could potentially kill me is very much lower then that of a cop.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-police-naloxone-self-administer-1.4127711

 

[nate007]

41 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

That's quite the apples and oranges comparison. Law enforcement is not the same as social work.

I was referring specifically to the comment about abused children and all the other domestic-related crap that social workers deal with every day. Just based on job postings I've seen in the past, most social worker salaries top out in the 70s.

All I'm saying is that the current funding and negotiation method probably isn't as taxpayer friendly as it could be (this goes for all public sector unionized environments).

[Mark H.]

On 2017-5-22 at 11:05 AM, Brandon said:

It would solve a lot of it,   you can't cause ten crime sprees while behind bars.  

Also did you know that once someone has a record,   they really don't care about paying $25 dollar fines for selling drugs and having to promise to stay away from drugs/weapons and to not stay out late.     

The punishment for red light cameras ,  driving in the bus lane and rolling a stop sign are way more severe then most punishments given out to people with real crimes.   

If only you knew what the average "punishment" is it would make you sick to your stomach. 

Oh sure, you can't cause crime sprees while you're behind bars, but jails do little or nothing to prevent further crime. That's a big part of the problem. I have police officer friends - 90% of the people they deal with are repeat offenders.  More time behind bars isn't going to improve that, especially with most jails already full.

  

[Mark H.]

On 2017-5-22 at 11:17 AM, nate007 said:

My problem with looking at current raises is that you have to put them into context with past raises. If you consistently give someone raises that are above the rate of inflation, not only will they eventually end up with salaries that are well above the average worker whose wage only rose with inflation during that time, but you'll also create expectations for those increases to continue in perpetuity. In the case of police officers and fire fighters, the arbitration problem is well documented. But other public-sector jobs? In the case of teachers, you can compare their salaries against teachers in other provinces, but also against non-unionized teachers in private schools, and against the thousands of Education grads out there who can't find teaching jobs.

Then you've also got the many people in the public sector whose titles don't fall into the 'professional' categories. People with words like 'clerk', 'co-ordinator', 'technician', or 'analyst' in their job titles, all of whom make 10-20% more than they would for similar roles in the private sector (I am one of them, and would probably have to take about a 10k pay cut to move to the private sector). Then there's the fact that in many cases, these wage increases apply to everyone at the same rate, which further compounds the problem. A 2% raise to a clerk making $40,000 is $800, but that same 2% gives an analyst making $80,000 a $1,600 raise. Compound that over ten or 20 years, and you've got a massive difference between those at the top and bottom of the same union contract.

In reality, you could probably freeze the wages of all public sector workers for about ten year before they even came close to the salaries of their private sector counterparts. Toss in the benefits, DB pensions, lack of accountability/performance standards, and (by comparison to the private sector) the vast majority of public sector workers have absolutely nothing to complain about.

1. Other provinces: we are, on average $$ per annum, behind Alberta and ahead of BC and Sask. Overall, we fit right in the middle of the pack. 

2. Private schools: they look at public sector collective agreements and pay the same wages or more, as well as giving similar benefits.  I know this for a fact - I'm in a unique situation where I work for both public and private schools - the good ones pay the going rate or more.

3. Education grads who can't find teaching jobs: are you suggesting more of them would find work if wages were lower?  Hardly the case - there are fewer teaching jobs because family size is shrinking.  Also, I find it depends a great deal on the education program from which they graduated (eg. BU grads had a 94% hiring rate in 2016) and also the experience they acquire while they're in University.  I advise teacher candidates to take more courses in summer, so they can spend a couple of terms working as an Educational Assistant, and work their tails off during their teaching placements. You have to do something to promote yourself - otherwise that degree is just a piece of paper.  School Divisions have the luxury of hiring the cream of the crop.  Oh and - be willing to work absolutely anywhere.

 

[SpeedFlex27]

8 hours ago, nate007 said:

That is an absolutely valid point, but what about the officers who are paid under the same union contract, making the same wage, who never see those dangers because they work in the communications department, or the traffic division. 

When my property taxes continue to go up 5-8% per year, you can't fault me for asking if there is a different way to deliver these services.

How do you deliver a service differently when a criminal waves a gun? When a house is on fire? Please enlighten me. Like I said, until you need them, cops, firefighters & paramedics are overpaid.

Edited May 24, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[The Unknown Poster]

 

[Brandon]

12 hours ago, JCon said:

I would say IT professionals are well, well, paid in the public sector. There were crazy bumps getting geared up for Y2K (remember that?) and they've kept up the pace. I know that they don't have any challenges attracting qualified staff for the wages and benefits they pay. Also, fixed workweek, is a bonus.

In Winnipeg yes... in bigger cities nope.    

To put it in perspective...   out East I was making near 6 figures just to do basic html coding.   In Winnipeg that same job would pay only 40 grand.  

[Brandon]

delete

Edited May 24, 2017 by Brandon

[Jacquie]

I have worked in the private sector and the public sector in the same field. Personally when it comes to private vs public sector pay and benefits for "non-professionals", I don't think public/civil servants are overpaid. I think private sector employees are underpaid. 

[bigg jay]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/mail-carrier-fentanyl-cpr-1.4130217

What would you do in this situation? Personally, I think the guy made the right call.

[Atomic]

14 minutes ago, bigg jay said:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/mail-carrier-fentanyl-cpr-1.4130217

What would you do in this situation? Personally, I think the guy made the right call.

Like it says in the article, you have to put your own safety first.  He's a mail carrier, it's not like we're talking about someone who is paid to save lives.  Definitely did the right thing by watching out for himself first.

[The Unknown Poster]

Man that's tough.  Two people in critical doesnt help the situation so you have to be safe.  Paramedics have certain calls they wont respond to without police presence so they look after their safety too.  I've done first aid and CPR in pretty awful circumstances, been covered in all sorts of nasty things.  But everyone is different and if I had gotten sick, Im sure I'd have had a different perspective looking back.

Speaking of which, isnt CPR now just chest compressions?  I thought they dropped the mouth to mouth aspect... (its been awhile since I was certified).

[Brandon]

8 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Man that's tough.  Two people in critical doesnt help the situation so you have to be safe.  Paramedics have certain calls they wont respond to without police presence so they look after their safety too.  I've done first aid and CPR in pretty awful circumstances, been covered in all sorts of nasty things.  But everyone is different and if I had gotten sick, Im sure I'd have had a different perspective looking back.

Speaking of which, isnt CPR now just chest compressions?  I thought they dropped the mouth to mouth aspect... (its been awhile since I was certified).

 I took a first aid course a few months back...  the mouth to mouth is back.    

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, Brandon said:

 I took a first aid course a few months back...  the mouth to mouth is back.    

Dont call it a comeback!

Is it 15 compressions, 2 breaths?

[Brandon]

4 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Dont call it a comeback!

Is it 15 compressions, 2 breaths?

It's 30 compressions ,  2 breaths ...    however if two people are giving CPR then they recommend 15 with 2 ,  switch off and the other person does 15 with 2. 

With babies you still do the two finger compressions and then breathe air into the nose and mouth. 

[Atomic]

Just now, Brandon said:

It's 30 compressions ,  2 breaths ...    however if two people are giving CPR then they recommend 15 with 2 ,  switch off and the other person does 15 with 2. 

With babies you still do the two finger compressions and then breathe air into the nose and mouth. 

Yep, I did my first aid about 8-10 months ago and this is what I learned as well.

[Brandon]

1 hour ago, bigg jay said:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/mail-carrier-fentanyl-cpr-1.4130217

What would you do in this situation? Personally, I think the guy made the right call.

He absolutely did the right thing.      The paramedics  (and any police/firefighters)  should have on their kit the proper gloves and also a special plastic mask like thing that you can place on the victim which prevents the person giving CPR from getting any sort of saliva or bad stuff on themselves. 

 

[bigg jay]

I'm surprised the paramedics would have even asked him to perform mouth to mouth or cpr (assuming he told them about the white powder on her shirt).  I'm also certified in 1st Aid & CPR but that would the deal breaker for me considering how easily you can feel the effects of fentanyl just on contact.

[The Unknown Poster]

12 minutes ago, Brandon said:

He absolutely did the right thing.      The paramedics  (and any police/firefighters)  should have on their kit the proper gloves and also a special plastic mask like thing that you can place on the victim which prevents the person giving CPR from getting any sort of saliva or bad stuff on themselves. 

 

Yeah, I imagine we might see more CPR kits "out there" for this very reason.