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[Atomic]

13 minutes ago, Brandon said:

I may have heard that in the near future the plan is for all policing agencies to have administrative staff fill out all of the paper work / reports while the officers would then spend much more time away from a desk. 

 

How is this not the case already?  Seems very logical and kinda common sense

[The Unknown Poster]

12 minutes ago, Brandon said:

I may have heard that in the near future the plan is for all policing agencies to have administrative staff fill out all of the paper work / reports while the officers would then spend much more time away from a desk. 

 

That is a great idea.  I would guess there is some issue of evidence etc.  Like the officer on scene has to take the statement so he can go to court and swear to its authenticity.  Has to be away to get around that and have civilian "clerks", even if they have to be sworn, taking statements and doing paper work.

I was once injured in a brawl and the police wanted to document it because the weapon used was a bat with nails sticking out so they thought it might end up an attempted murder or aggravated assault charge.  So even though I wasnt badly hurt, it was a serious incident. So they had to take me to the PSB for photos.  Had to wait in line.  The officers with me had to stay with me.  Then they had to take me for stitches and medical documentation and stay with me.  All told it was hours of their time not working the street.  When I mentioned it, the officer said he was off at 2AM anyway and this was all OT.

In another, we had maybe 5-6 cars on scene.  Minor incident and all dealt with.  A call came in asking for officers to respond.  No one at our location did because they were "busy".  The dispatch then specifically called an officer pair at our location and asked them to respond as the other incident required back up and he radioed that they were already on scene somewhere else and busy.  They werent busy.  Not blaming the cops.  Just saying, they spend a lot of time doing things that th public would not expect very well paid law enforcement officers to do.

[Brandon]

6 minutes ago, Atomic said:

How is this not the case already?  Seems very logical and kinda common sense

Need to staff and set up the infrastructure all while being financed.... also trying to introduce change in any agency is always a pain. 

 

 

[The Unknown Poster]

4 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Need to staff and set up the infrastructure all while being financed.... also trying to introduce change in any agency is always a pain. 

 

 

Expand the cadet program.  You're paying them a lot less.  Let them take witness statements, transport witnesses etc.  And they would be in a better position to testify to their interactions, validity of documentations etc. 

The goal should be to have the patrol officers back on patrol responding to calls ASAP.

[Brandon]

8 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

That is a great idea.  I would guess there is some issue of evidence etc.  Like the officer on scene has to take the statement so he can go to court and swear to its authenticity.  Has to be away to get around that and have civilian "clerks", even if they have to be sworn, taking statements and doing paper work.

Not a huge issue,   a large part of many administrative staff in policing agencies transcribe audio interviews,  statements , etc...  All of this is used in court. 

Evidence would always be handled by non clerical staff (naturally),  so collection and processing of evidence would always be done by the experts.

I always have a good laugh watching CSI type shows and how loose they are with the evidence and how fast everything processes...  what takes an hour on tv usually is a month or two in real life.

[Brandon]

Just now, The Unknown Poster said:

Expand the cadet program.  You're paying them a lot less.  Let them take witness statements, transport witnesses etc.  And they would be in a better position to testify to their interactions, validity of documentations etc. 

The goal should be to have the patrol officers back on patrol responding to calls ASAP.

From my friends at Winnipeg Police...  one of the most time consuming and wasting responsibilities for them is checking in on people with curfews ,  people on parole,  trying to find youths who ran away etc...  lots of wasted time.

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, Brandon said:

From my friends at Winnipeg Police...  one of the most time consuming and wasting responsibilities for them is checking in on people with curfews ,  people on parole,  trying to find youths who ran away etc...  lots of wasted time.

That seems like excellent opportunity for cadets.  Winnipeg pays their police a lot of money.  Doing curfew checks is absolutely ridiculous.  The pushback is, if you are more efficient, you cut down on OT, you cut down on staffing requirements etc.

[JCon]

40 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

That seems like excellent opportunity for cadets.  Winnipeg pays their police a lot of money.  Doing curfew checks is absolutely ridiculous.  The pushback is, if you are more efficient, you cut down on OT, you cut down on staffing requirements etc.

Police officers are now require so much training and education, they are white-collar workers (or, are paid like it) but all these blue collar responsibilities remain.

If not cadets, we need a layer of staff, below officers, that can perform these types of tasks. Union will not like it though.

[The Unknown Poster]

Im all for paying police well but lets not kid ourselves, like any occupation there are great cops, average cops and horrible cops.  But they are very strong union.  They are paid very well.  I dont begrudge them but its very good pay for a job that does not require a degree.

I agree whole heartedly that policing could be revamped with a lot of duties taken by civilians or cadets.  And I agree the union will never let it happen.

[Atomic]

3 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Im all for paying police well but lets not kid ourselves, like any occupation there are great cops, average cops and horrible cops.  But they are very strong union.  They are paid very well.  I dont begrudge them but its very good pay for a job that does not require a degree.

I agree whole heartedly that policing could be revamped with a lot of duties taken by civilians or cadets.  And I agree the union will never let it happen.

Not sure how the degree comes into it?  There are plenty of cops with university degrees and plenty of people in well-paying jobs who do not have degrees.

The value of university degrees drops daily.

[The Unknown Poster]

10 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Not sure how the degree comes into it?  There are plenty of cops with university degrees and plenty of people in well-paying jobs who do not have degrees.

The value of university degrees drops daily.

The point being that you dont have to have extended education to join the police force and make a significant amount of money.  Its a valid point.  I make good money without a degree because I worked my way up in my company.  But Im worth this much to this company...maybe not to another.  To make what a police officer does after 5 years, Im not sure a 20 year old could get that job without a degree or other extensive trades training.

[bearpants]

15 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Not sure how the degree comes into it?  There are plenty of cops with university degrees and plenty of people in well-paying jobs who do not have degrees.

The value of university degrees drops daily.

I don't think that's true at all... sure, there are plenty of ways to get a great paying job without a degree... but in a lot of corporations, having that 3 or 4 year degree is what gets you in the door...

Now master's or doctorate degrees... that's a new conversation...

[Atomic]

3 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

The point being that you dont have to have extended education to join the police force and make a significant amount of money.  Its a valid point.  I make good money without a degree because I worked my way up in my company.  But Im worth this much to this company...maybe not to another.  To make what a police officer does after 5 years, Im not sure a 20 year old could get that job without a degree or other extensive trades training.

How much time does it take to train to the point where you become an actual police officer?  Assuming you start right after high school, are you saying that a 20 year old could be a full police officer (not cadet)?  Sooner, later?  I definitely feel like the cops I know took several years before becoming an officer.

How much does a cop make in their first year?  Their fifth?

[Atomic]

Just now, bearpants said:

I don't think that's true at all... sure, there are plenty of ways to get a great paying job without a degree... but in a lot of corporations, having that 3 or 4 year degree is what gets you in the door...

Now master's or doctorate degrees... that's a new conversation...

Great.  Enjoy your 45k/year job at the insurance corporation that your 4 years in university got you.

The tradespeople who went to school for a year and now have 3 years of experience are making more than you, working side-jobs for cash and have no debt.

I accept the value of a university degree for doctors, lawyers, and engineers.  Everyone else is wasting their time and money.

[The Unknown Poster]

18 minutes ago, Atomic said:

How much time does it take to train to the point where you become an actual police officer?  Assuming you start right after high school, are you saying that a 20 year old could be a full police officer (not cadet)?  Sooner, later?  I definitely feel like the cops I know took several years before becoming an officer.

How much does a cop make in their first year?  Their fifth?

I think its about six months of training.

Starting: $53,000

After 1  Year: $58,000

After 2 years: $63,000

After 3 years: $67,000

After 4 Years: $77,000

After 5 years: $97,000

As a publicly funded enterprise, a $20,000 raise from year 4 to 5 is outrageous.

I dont know about you guys, but I never started at $53,000 in my career.  And I dont make $97,000 either.  Not to belittle police because no one is shooting at me either.  And I believes WPS has one of the highest salary structures among police forces.  But factor in the massive amount of OT and inefficient use of patrol officers and where is the value in that salary?  Its a huge, huge expense to the City.

EDIT: Also, the benefits are good.  Not terribly outrageous compared to some places (including my own).  But OT is 1.5X for 4 hours and then double time thereafter.  So you see the way OT can spiral out of control.

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by The Unknown Poster

[The Unknown Poster]

12 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Great.  Enjoy your 45k/year job at the insurance corporation that your 4 years in university got you.

The tradespeople who went to school for a year and now have 3 years of experience are making more than you, working side-jobs for cash and have no debt.

I accept the value of a university degree for doctors, lawyers, and engineers.  Everyone else is wasting their time and money.

Ill disagree as well only in this sense.  In my company, there are some really solid wages.  And there are two ways to get them:  work your way up or have a degree.  Once inside and working up, most internal postings require a degree or equivalent experience.  So yes, the value in working here ro 5 years might seem equal to going to U of M, getting a degree and applying.  But there is a ceiling to where I can go without a degree.  There are some job I simply would never be advanced to without a degree.

[bearpants]

14 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Great.  Enjoy your 45k/year job at the insurance corporation that your 4 years in university got you.

The tradespeople who went to school for a year and now have 3 years of experience are making more than you, working side-jobs for cash and have no debt.

I accept the value of a university degree for doctors, lawyers, and engineers.  Everyone else is wasting their time and money.

No need to get so personal... 

I do have a degree and I have a job making far more than the above salary and benefits you have described... it helps when you don't have any particularly useful specialized skills (for some reason my employer doesn't consider "well-liked MBB poster" an important skill-set )...

It should also be noted that I did agree with you that there are plenty of ways to make money without a degree... but you can't minimize the value of a degree just b/c there are ways to make money without it... see perfect example from @The Unknown Poster above...

[Atomic]

7 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Ill disagree as well only in this sense.  In my company, there are some really solid wages.  And there are two ways to get them:  work your way up or have a degree.  Once inside and working up, most internal postings require a degree or equivalent experience.  So yes, the value in working here ro 5 years might seem equal to going to U of M, getting a degree and applying.  But there is a ceiling to where I can go without a degree.  There are some job I simply would never be advanced to without a degree.

I'm definitely not saying the value of a degree is zero.  Just that it is rapidly falling.  You give the example of your company.  There are lots of companies that operate similarly.  But less companies operate like that now than did a few years ago and far less than 10-20 years ago.  In most cases, experience will get you where you want to go and if you can supplement that with short-term targeted education and certification, you can almost certainly rise as high as you like.

Of course this is also referring specifically to corporations which are a large portion of employers but only a portion.  A smaller business is not going to let the lack of a degree stop their best employee from rising through the ranks.  Self-employment also offers an unlimited ceiling and requires no degree.  University education in entrepreneurship is so poor it's laughable.

Just now, bearpants said:

No need to get so personal... 

I do have a degree and I have a job making far more than the above salary and benefits you have described... it helps when you don't have any particularly useful specialized skills (for some reason my employer doesn't consider "well-liked MBB poster" an important skill-set )...

It should also be noted that I did agree with you that there are plenty of ways to make money without a degree... but you can't minimize the value of a degree just b/c there are ways to make money without it... see perfect example from @The Unknown Poster above...

Haha.  You aren't well-liked.  

Like I said above, I don't think a degree is worth nothing and I realize that it can still be a path to a lucrative career.  But my point is that the options for employment without a degree grow daily and as such the value of an expensive and time-consuming degree drop.  If I can achieve similar or better results as someone who spent 4+ years in school, wouldn't you agree that the value of the schooling is questionable?

I should qualify all this by saying I do have a degree and it has allowed me to have a great career... yet if I started over, you couldn't convince me to go to university, not a chance.

[The Unknown Poster]

I should also say, in my own experience, I was not great in school.  I did a year of University and it wasnt for me.  But I have a pretty good way of speaking, interacting (believe it or not lol) and leadership skills.  So when I interviewed for a ground floor position, they asked about education.  But my interview won me the job based on my ability to interview.

Someone else might not be a great interview but has a degree.  So I guess its skillset.  My skillset is different than someone with a degree.

Im lucky to work for a company that values the work you do as much as a degree up to a certain point. That point is pretty good.  There are managers here with no degree making probably $80,000-ish.  But after that, you need a degree.  If its a specialized job they want education too...unless you manage to get loaned out and show a propensity. 

There is value in a degree for sure.

[The Unknown Poster]

@Atomic

thats fair.  I mean, I know people with degrees making less than me and some without making more.  Some with definitely found it gave them a leg up and make more.  What I do now was not my dream job.  What I wanted to do required a degree.  And actually my fall back plan was Police work and I nearly went to RCMP.  Im not sure where I got de-railed...lol  Time passed by and then a couple of incidents working in a nightclub would have made it more difficult.  But Im happy where I am (my dad worked here too, for 30 years).  Good vacation, good benefits, good pension.  Not my dream though.

And even though I think Im old, I considered going to school a couple of years ago to go into law (my dream job).

[bearpants]

4 minutes ago, Atomic said:

I should qualify all this by saying I do have a degree and it has allowed me to have a great career... yet if I started over, you couldn't convince me to go to university, not a chance.

We can definitely agree on this part... I still may have gone to university but perhaps gone a different direction... I don't really know, try not to dwell in the past too much...

hey wait a minute... what's this about not being liked!! 

[Brandon]

Don't forget the massive amount of OT they get on top of the big salary....

In fairness though certain other jobs (i.e. Teachers) can make very high salaries for what seems to be a job that shouldn't be that difficult to do...

[The Unknown Poster]

39 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Don't forget the massive amount of OT they get on top of the big salary....

In fairness though certain other jobs (i.e. Teachers) can make very high salaries for what seems to be a job that shouldn't be that difficult to do...

Teachers is a funny thing.  I think we're used to hearing that teachers are underpaid.  I know several teachers (including a principle) who sort of laugh that off.  They always felt they were well paid.  And the perks of Summer off, Christmas off, lots of in-service days and personal development etc.  They didnt work *that* much during the day because they are scheduled periods off for prep.  But they did say some teachers are miserable and only it for the money and always complain whereas they love it and you're expected to make an effort, such as supervising events at lunch/after school etc.  All my friends who are teachers are also coaches so thats their outlook.

But I think teaching is another profession where I do not begrudge them their pay and perks.  But...its a protected profession where poor teachers will get dragged along for awhile.  I bet every single one of us can name really special teachers that impacted our lives for the better....and a few that were plain lousy.

[Atomic]

Honestly I don't find 150k or so to be outrageous for a police officer working long hours.

They do put their lives at risk and their performance is constantly under the public's microscope.  Not to mention the toll taken on their mental health seeing some of the stuff they see.  If I can make 100k+ as a programmer sitting on my ass all day with no OT then really 150k with OT for police work seems kinda reasonable.

[Jacquie]

Based on some comments I'm assuming some weren't able to access the article so here is an excerpt:

Damon Johnston, president of the Aboriginal Council of Winnipeg and community chairman of the coalition, said the group is close to finalizing a business plan for an alternative method to dealing with intoxicated and addicted persons.

Johnston said having police pick up and transport intoxicated people to the Main Street Project isn’t dealing with the problem of public drunkenness and doesn’t help addicts.

“The business plan that we’re doing is a holistic approach,” Johnston said. “We’re hoping to bring an approach that identifies all the needs that an individual has and take the individuals with repeating behaviours who are constantly showing up in the Main Street Project and get them away from the drinking and the drugs.”[\quote]