Wrestling

[The Unknown Poster]

3 hours ago, Goalie said:

Its dead in 3 years. 

 

Heck of a prediction. 

2 hours ago, Brandon said:

If TNA can survive without a billionaire then I'd imagine this can also survive. 

All they will need to do is avoid bringing in old has beens like Russo, Cornette, Bischoff that would be a good start. 

Well TNA lost a boat load of money for the bast majority of their existence and did have a billionaire supporting it. 

The difference is that TNA’s billionaire was Panda Energy and they supported it as a let project for their daughter Dixie. Once papa Panda cut funding they were effectively finished. 

They were briefly funded by Billy Corgan before Anthem, funded by Leonard Asper, bought the company  

All Elite has a billionaire that actively wants to do this  

TNA has Spike TV and the millions they pumped into it

All Elite will have better merchandising and live events  but they need a robust tv deal.  

The quearion is what will Vince do  he can screw them by outbidding for every piece of talent available  

its been said that one guy with an expiring deal (believes to be Marty scuril) has an NXT deal far richer than anyone else has been offered  

I think they will use nxt to try to compete with Elite  

The three big things are 1) TV (if they get a good tv deal they likely last beyond three years simply because the deal will likely be for 3-5 years) 2) New Japan relationship (access to big talent and provides secondary income for Elite guys) 3) ability to sign key talent (Kenny is the first big test because he will get a huge offer from WWE, but people will keep whispering Punk’s name and looking at key wwe guys to see if they re-sign (Styles)  Jericho is a big factor too  

it’s the best news for wrestling since the Monday night war assuming they get a good tv deal  

 

[ediger]

They need to be on a channel that most people already have, not something like Pursuit or whatever Impact laded on. Won't be surprised to see these guys do a lot of web content too. There's more and more opportunities to monetize that sort of thing every week it seems.

If there's two real big winners in this whole thing, it's Kenny Omega and to a lesser extent Chris Jericho. They've both positioned themselves well to have a bidding war for their services. Wherever they end up, they are going to get paid BIG bucks.

Edited January 2, 2019 by ediger

[The Unknown Poster]

5 hours ago, ediger said:

They need to be on a channel that most people already have, not something like Pursuit or whatever Impact laded on. Won't be surprised to see these guys do a lot of web content too. There's more and more opportunities to monetize that sort of thing every week it seems.

If there's two real big winners in this whole thing, it's Kenny Omega and to a lesser extent Chris Jericho. They've both positioned themselves well to have a bidding war for their services. Wherever they end up, they are going to get paid BIG bucks.

Its a bit different in the US where people get these weird channels in their packages.  Pursuit isnt very good.  POP TV, even though it seems like an awful channel wasnt *that* bad...

MLW does okay with BEIN Sports which is a bigger channel internationally though I hear the viewership for Fusion (MLW's TV show) is under 20,000 but they have the appearance of a growing brand.  

Its probably not *that* hard to get a very small channel interested (even local Winnipeg had a TV deal on a regional station in Texas) but the key is getting paid and getting seen, like you said.  MLW uploads their TV show onto youtube within 24 hours for the purpose of getting eyeballs.  

If All Elite wants to be a WWE alternative they need millions per year.  If WWE can get a 5 year/billion dollar deal with their ratings, can All Elite generate half the ratings?  A quarter?  And then how much of it is WWE's brand vs actual viewership?  And how much is All Elite being the hot thing worth to a network?  If it was me, I'd definitely want to know if Kenny was in or out as it would directly influence how much I'd pay, same with Jericho.  If you can launch TV with Omega, Jericho and a supporting cast of Cody, Bucks, Page etc, you're looking good.

EDIT to add: Keep in mind, this isnt just Cody Rhodes walking into a meeting with TV execs.  Even then, Cody and the Bucks (with help, ironically, from ROH) got the deal with WGN for ALL IN (I'd suspect WGN is a major interested party in a regular TV deal for All Elite).  The owner of the Jags financing this things opens a lot of doors and gives it an air of legitimacy not many other promotions have had.

EDIT Part II: If they get a smaller tier network, their goal might be to do quarterly PPV's.  Thats something Impact largely abandoned but ROH does decent at and All In reportedly did well (though they never released their buy rate numbers) and tour.  I find it hard to believe they can compete with WWE for talent with that model though.  But if a billionaire is willing to invest $50 million to create a profitable #2 US promotion, he can eat a lot of losses proving themselves for a future big TV contract.  (TNA lost $30 million, Ted Turner was told $50 million to become legitimate competition to WWE).

Edited January 2, 2019 by The Unknown Poster

[Jpan85]

 

[do or die]

So long Mean Gene....

[The Unknown Poster]

Brit Baker signed with All Elite. 

[SpeedFlex27]

Gene was the best in the business back in his AWA & early WWE days back in the 70's & 80's.  Every interview he did with Randy savage was memorable as it was with Hogan. He could even bring out the best in mic slugs like Ken Patera & Paul Ordorff. He & Bobby Heenan together were priceless. 

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by SpeedFlex27

[The Unknown Poster]

As mentioned, they signed Brit Baker.  I'd suggest they look at Gisele Shaw too.  I would expect Don Callis to be interested in going there though his job with Impact probably works better being a Canadian company.  

Rumors flying that Tony Khan has committed $100 million to the project, that TBS is in negotiations, that its a $30 million per year, 3 year deal...and that its not for TBS but for a streaming service Turner owns.  All rumours have been both refuted and "seconded" by other sources.  Hilarious.  I'd literally only trust Meltzer on news/rumours due to his relationship with the Elite guys.

Another rumour was Goldberg is being talked to.  He shares an agent with...someone, Cody maybe?  Can't remember.  But I believe he follows All Elite (or vice versa) so it's intriguing.  

[The Unknown Poster]

I only woke up for the main event of Wrestle Kingdom. But spoiler alert:

hell of a match with the outcome everyone expected. In fact New japan switched every title which is either confirmation of several guys leaving or their attenpt at a swerve (not their style). 

Kept calling it a new era. In many ways!

[bigg jay]

1 hour ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I only woke up for the main event of Wrestle Kingdom. But spoiler alert:

hell of a match with the outcome everyone expected. In fact New japan switched every title which is either confirmation of several guys leaving or their attenpt at a swerve (not their style). 

Kept calling it a new era. In many ways!

With so many matches having a forgone conclusion, WK was pretty underwhelming for me (from a storyline perspective).   Was hoping for at least one unexpected result but it didn't happen. 

[The Unknown Poster]

15 minutes ago, bigg jay said:

With so many matches having a forgone conclusion, WK was pretty underwhelming for me (from a storyline perspective).   Was hoping for at least one unexpected result but it didn't happen. 

I only woke up for the main event but reading the detailed results, it seems people agree.  It was a good show as it always will be with that talent but not blow away until the main event.  One thing that is great about Kenny is every match feels different and feels like a different story.  In WWE they are so produced and formulaic that sometimes matches seem longer than they are.  I couldnt believe when they announced the 30 minute mark of Omega/Tanahashi last night.  It felt like no time had gone.

I guess I was a bit surprised at Jay White beating Okada but if they are losing a bunch of "Americans" it makes sense to push White and with Tanahashi as champion, they need a heel.

Really interesting that Kenny kicked out of the High Fly Flow but never did hit the One Winged Angel.  He's protected that move beyond belief.

Rumor circulating that Kenny was offered $3.5 million by WWE.  

Edited January 4, 2019 by The Unknown Poster

[JCon]

13 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Rumor circulating that Kenny was offered $3.5 million by WWE.  

Where does that rank in terms of the WWE talent? How does he boost that? In merch sales? 

I'm not sure how the WWE differs compared to the independent circuit. 

Will he have to do X number of house shows? Live TV? Etc. Is he required to do other promos/events? What about sponsorships or is that tightly controlled by the WWE? 

[The Unknown Poster]

2 minutes ago, JCon said:

Where does that rank in terms of the WWE talent? How does he boost that? In merch sales? 

I'm not sure how the WWE differs compared to the independent circuit. 

Will he have to do X number of house shows? Live TV? Etc. Is he required to do other promos/events? What about sponsorships or is that tightly controlled by the WWE? 

WWE's contracts are for "downside guarantees" so if you never work a match, never sell a piece of merch, sit at home doing nothing, this is your guaranteed income.  When you add in House Show pay, PPV bonuses, Merchandise etc, that can increase it multiple fold.

I remember hearing that only Hunter & Cena had $1 million downside gurantees.  In Cena's case it wouldnt matter because he would get so much more for merch and event bonuses.  Hunter's pay is released since he's an officer of the company and I think it was like $1.6 million in 2017.  Cena would be upwards of several million in a year he works fairly regularly.

Reports of Roman Reigns being around $5 million (that would be his total pay, his downside guarantee would likely be much lower).

It goes right down to some of the female talent, especially non-regular, making less than $100,000.  And remember, in WWE on the main roster you pay your own road expenses (hotel, car rental, food).  NXT talent are treated more like employees and road expenses are paid.  When you're called up they continue to do pay your road expenses for a period of time as you acclimate (and the big cheques start coming).

So if WWE offers someone a $3.5 million deal, the assumption is that's a downside guarantee and would be exceptionally large.  And it would indicate WWE feels its a fraction of his value because you'd always make way more than your downside if you're working regularly.  Obviously merchandise would be a big deal for Kenny.  The higher up the card you are or the more responsible you are for a show's draw, the more bonus you get.

Everything is negotiable.  And for veterans the big thing is negotiating less dates (so you're not constantly on the road).  

Reportedly Brock gets $10 million a year and works limited dates.  His contract allowed WWE to add dates if they wanted, but at an agreed upon price which was very high.  Brock also gets the make his own sponsorship deals which is why he can wear corporate logos on his gear (no one else has that deal).

They would definitely want Kenny working house shows.  Anyone can look at Kenny's schedule the last few years and see his doesnt work as often as he could (he would make a lot of money doing indy gigs but doesnt).  So I could see him negotiating less than a full time schedule but he'd be big for house shows and WWE would want him on the house show circuit.

When AJ Styles went to WWE, Vince didnt see him as a star until the house show numbers with him suddenly shot up.  

So yeah everything is negotiable.  Kenny has endorsement deals and things he enjoys doing on the side.  So he'd want to keep those because he enjoys them and they supplement his income.  Its all negotiable.  Even airplane status is negotiable with first class travel being a perk given to veterans when they reach a certain point.

WWE covers medical expenses and pays you your downside (and merch etc) when you're hurt.  

For background, their developmental deals used to be really low, $500/week (I think that was Kenny's original WWE contract pay_.  And everyone got that.  I think it was $1000/week when NXT started and then they began giving "custom" deals to certain developmental talent they liked.  I believe custom deals are more common in NXT now.  

Back in the day, it was not uncommon for WWE to let certain talent work Japanese tours as well but that is a thing of the past.

For what it's worth, Meltzer has confirmed WWE made a "fantastic offer" to Kenny.  He also said ROH, New Japan and All Elite are sitting down this weekend to discuss the future and potentially all working together.

[Brandon]

Is that 3.5 million per year or over a 5 year period?   

[JCon]

Great interview with Tommy Dreamer on The Warm-up Show on TSN 1290 this afternoon. I'm sure it will be released on a podcast later.  He's in town promoting the CWE show tonight but he has a lot of insight on the business, including the impact of social media and the internet on the business. Some very good and informed takes. 

 

Here's a link to the page when it goes up in a few hours: https://www.tsn.ca/radio/winnipeg-1290/shows/the-warm-up-show-1.52971

Edited January 4, 2019 by JCon

[bigg jay]

29 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Is that 3.5 million per year or over a 5 year period?   

Per year is what I've read... that number is being shot down by some people though.  Meltzer hasn't gone into detail (yet) but he's said it was a fantastic offer that the WWE made.  I would guess that Kenny would be worth more than Cody and he was offered a 7 figure deal.

[The Unknown Poster]

32 minutes ago, bigg jay said:

Per year is what I've read... that number is being shot down by some people though.  Meltzer hasn't gone into detail (yet) but he's said it was a fantastic offer that the WWE made.  I would guess that Kenny would be worth more than Cody and he was offered a 7 figure deal.

$3.5 over 5 years would be reasonable downside a couple years ago.  But especially, as you said, in the wake of Cody and the Bucks reportedly being offered $1 million per year, $3.5 per year isnt actually pretty reasonable...huge and very different from their regular pay scale, but reasonable based on who Kenny is.  If it was $3.5 on a two year deal, I would not be surprised but I heard per year as well...who knows.  Downside doesnt really matter (its a safety net), though WWE does work to justify their contracts (ie. if they pay you big dollars, they push you to justify it) so it is also a safety net against being buried.

But Kenny would make way more than his downside anyway.

Funny, it wasnt long ago that some people debated here that Kenny wasn't a star.

[Jpan85]

 

[Brandon]

I know it's been a long time but back when Bret Hart left WWE he took a then monster deal of 2.5 million per year  (compared to the 1.5 WWE was paying him),  with Shawn Micheals being jealous because he was only getting 750 000.  

Crazy how times have changed.  

 

[Goalie]

Ill make a longer post about AEW soon but for now.. If they want to compete with WWE.. They can't cater to marks... 

Ask casual fans why they should now care about stardust and 2 guys who do 50 superkicks a match. 

Goldberg? Why 

[ediger]

14 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Ill make a longer post about AEW soon but for now.. If they want to compete with WWE.. They can't cater to marks... 

Ask casual fans why they should now care about stardust and 2 guys who do 50 superkicks a match. 

Goldberg? Why 

Why should anyone care about any wrestling? It's all in the way it's marketed. If they can get some buzz about being the hot new thing and then actually be on a channel that people can find they should get some eyeballs. If it's a good product they'll get the ever so important word of mouth advertising that REALLY gets viewers. You seem to have your mind made up already without a single event taking place.

Edited January 5, 2019 by ediger

[Brandon]

34 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Ill make a longer post about AEW soon but for now.. If they want to compete with WWE.. They can't cater to marks... 

Ask casual fans why they should now care about stardust and 2 guys who do 50 superkicks a match. 

Goldberg? Why 

I will assume that their is a considerable amount of people like myself who loved watching wrestling as a kid and then once again when Stonecold and the Rock were on top.    For myself I stopped watching because it catered to little children and everything was so bland and vanilla. I think they could re-capture a lot of people who stopped watching if they could provide some kind of decent product that has at least a tiny bit of edge to it.    

[The Unknown Poster]

37 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Ill make a longer post about AEW soon but for now.. If they want to compete with WWE.. They can't cater to marks... 

Ask casual fans why they should now care about stardust and 2 guys who do 50 superkicks a match. 

Goldberg? Why 

Stop using the term “marks” as a way to demean wrestling fans. That’s a Russo move. And he’s a delusional self loathing fan. 

If you have to ask why fans do care about Cody and the bucks you’ve missed the point completely. 

You know who else cares about them?  The guy who just offered them $1 million. 

WWE is a behemoth that can never collapse without an extended period of incredible incompetence.  But what they produce is not what appeals to modern wrestling fans right now. 

All their key metrics have been dropping for a couple of years. While New Japan made in roads into the US, had their best US numbers for their middle of the night PPV’s. ROH has their biggest year. And the biggest star in the world (who you didn’t include on your criticism) is Kenny Omega who every single promotion wants right now. 

Goldberg?  Again...really. You can’t figure out why they would be interested?

[The Unknown Poster]

7 minutes ago, Brandon said:

I will assume that their is a considerable amount of people like myself who loved watching wrestling as a kid and then once again when Stonecold and the Rock were on top.    For myself I stopped watching because it catered to little children and everything was so bland and vanilla. I think they could re-capture a lot of people who stopped watching if they could provide some kind of decent product that has at least a tiny bit of edge to it.    

Yup. I’m the same as you. I watched as a kid and then barely watched for years. 

It was when wrestling got smarter that it drew me back in.  

The quality of wwe is a way better now than in the early to mid 90’s but it’s just as boring. 

Everyone should watch Kenny vs Tanahashi from two nights ago that was 40 minutes of a match that never felt like it.  

[The Unknown Poster]

On 2019-01-04 at 4:43 PM, Brandon said:

I know it's been a long time but back when Bret Hart left WWE he took a then monster deal of 2.5 million per year  (compared to the 1.5 WWE was paying him),  with Shawn Micheals being jealous because he was only getting 750 000.  

Crazy how times have changed.  

 

I can’t remember all the details off the top of my head but even more remarkable was Bret turned down more money from WCW in 96 to stay with wwe who offered him a 20 year deal or something like that. 

The difference in the deals is that Bret getting $2.5 million was his total deal not a downside. Wcw didn’t do downside guarantees. Which led to a lot of guys missing time because they made the same whether they worked or not.