Wrestling

[The Unknown Poster]

6 hours ago, Brandon said:

I don't know,  I've only watched a bit but the bits I did see were really really bad quality.   I can't remember the name I think it was the dark order doing a run in/attack....  I'm not joking when I say the local wrestling had more realistic fighting then that.  

 

 

Why do I find this dubious lol 😉😉

[Brandon]

2 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Why do I find this dubious lol 😉😉

 

[The Unknown Poster]

17 minutes ago, Brandon said:

 

Sure, you 'watch' some AEW...in other words you saw the clip of the lousy punches going around (which we were discussing in this very thread by the way).  But certainly if you think bad punches in one segment is the death knell for AEW, make sure you dont watch RAW at all...WWE went out of business about 5 years ago lol

Id be happy to take your over/under of a year through if you want to put real money down.  Keeping in mind their one year anniversary is this May 😉  (and definitely keep watching clips of the worst things and ignore the ratings, sell outs, merch sales, TV deal etc).

Anyway, I have to go back and watch the wedding from last night's RAW.  🙂 

EDIT: btw, the tweet is a joke, it wasn't Arik (who is a good worker and wouldnt whiff punches like that).

Edited December 31, 2019 by The Unknown Poster

[Brandon]

Well considering the owner is doing stunners....  I'm guessing it lasts as long as the money mark is willing to shell out the cash.  

It's definitely not looking like they are taking things seriously as a competitor to WWE when the money mark is delivering a stunner.  

I know it was more of a joke and afterwards but still concerning... 

WWE completely sucks ,  but at least people still know what it is.   AEW will never break into the mainstream with crap like they have above.  

[The Unknown Poster]

6 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Well considering the owner is doing stunners....  I'm guessing it lasts as long as the money mark is willing to shell out the cash.  

It's definitely not looking like they are taking things seriously as a competitor to WWE when the money mark is delivering a stunner.  

I know it was more of a joke and afterwards but still concerning... 

WWE completely sucks ,  but at least people still know what it is.   AEW will never break into the mainstream with crap like they have above.  

If the 2nd best national TV deal in wrestling, on a huge station like TNT, first hour PPV sell outs isnt "serious", I guess we disagree on what's serious.  Or does Tony K need to have his pants removed, his ass kissed and make out with women talent to be a "serious" promoter?  lol

If they run out of money, that would be a concern.  Hopefully they dont go bankrupt...hard to lose that many billions though I imagine its possible.  Until TNT decides they dont want to pay for wrestling anymore, AEW is not only fine, they're great.  

[Brandon]

Well if they are satisfied with being as large as TNA was in its prime then I guess it is fine.     If they want to be a serious competitor to WWE then they have a way to go and this kind of crap won't get them there.  

I don't remember Vince in the 80's pulling his pants down or doing anything of those sorts.   I have seen (even locally) a money mark wanting to get involved in the ring to live out their fantasies.  How many times have you seen on indy shows where the local promoter puts himself in the ring to live out his dream of being a wrestler.   

This is bush league stuff.  

With all this money from the Khan family you'd think they can fill out the roster and extras with guys who can work and can throw punches. 

 

[The Unknown Poster]

6 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Well if they are satisfied with being as large as TNA was in its prime then I guess it is fine.     If they want to be a serious competitor to WWE then they have a way to go and this kind of crap won't get them there.  

I don't remember Vince in the 80's pulling his pants down or doing anything of those sorts.   I have seen (even locally) a money mark wanting to get involved in the ring to live out their fantasies.  How many times have you seen on indy shows where the local promoter puts himself in the ring to live out his dream of being a wrestler.   

This is bush league stuff.  

With all this money from the Khan family you'd think they can fill out the roster and extras with guys who can work and can throw punches. 

 

I know you like to take shots at wrestling and speak in black & white terms.  But you're barking up the wrong tree.

What does Vince in the 80's have to do with anything?  

What local money marks are you referring to?

What is bush league?  Tony doing a dark segment for the live crowd (which WWE has done a million times by the way) or the Dark Order whiffed punches?

I can better respond if you clarify what you're talking about.

In terms of being as big as TNA, their ratings arent as big as TNA was at its best on SPIKE, though factoring in DVR gets it close.  But they're well ahead in terms of attendance and PPV buys.  They're already competition to WWE.

[Brandon]

8 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I know you like to take shots at wrestling and speak in black & white terms.  But you're barking up the wrong tree.

What does Vince in the 80's have to do with anything?  

What local money marks are you referring to?

What is bush league?  Tony doing a dark segment for the live crowd (which WWE has done a million times by the way) or the Dark Order whiffed punches?

I can better respond if you clarify what you're talking about.

In terms of being as big as TNA, their ratings arent as big as TNA was at its best on SPIKE, though factoring in DVR gets it close.  But they're well ahead in terms of attendance and PPV buys.  They're already competition to WWE.

When Vince took over the company he didn't put himself in the ring using finishers to make his fantasies come true.    The guy was all business and build the WWF to what it was by smart/savvy business choices.   He didn't go in to the ring and dropped Hogan Leg Drops on people to make himself feel good.  

Local money marks,  see my previous comments from my experiences.  In fairness the biggest money mark didn't get himself in the ring which was good.   Non -local  watch any youtube videos of indy promoters where they put themselves in the ring against legends/names.   Happens waaaaaaaaaaay to much.  

Bush League -  Having a promoter dropping a stunner,  I don't care if it was a dark match it's all over the internet and it definitely hurt the brand.    Having the dark order "goons" whiff punches,   putting a guy over who looks like this: 

 

I'm not against having bigger looking guys but looking at a picture like this completely reminds me of local low end indies.   

Everything just seems so amateurish with a few high quality guys in the mix.  

How come back in the day ECW was able to put together a full roster of guys who could work and who actually looked like legit wrestlers / tough guys?

Is their that few guys on the open market?

 

[The Unknown Poster]

11 minutes ago, Brandon said:

When Vince took over the company he didn't put himself in the ring using finishers to make his fantasies come true.    The guy was all business and build the WWF to what it was by smart/savvy business choices.   He didn't go in to the ring and dropped Hogan Leg Drops on people to make himself feel good.  

Local money marks,  see my previous comments from my experiences.  In fairness the biggest money mark didn't get himself in the ring which was good.   Non -local  watch any youtube videos of indy promoters where they put themselves in the ring against legends/names.   Happens waaaaaaaaaaay to much.  

Bush League -  Having a promoter dropping a stunner,  I don't care if it was a dark match it's all over the internet and it definitely hurt the brand.    Having the dark order "goons" whiff punches,   putting a guy over who looks like this: 

 

I'm not against having bigger looking guys but looking at a picture like this completely reminds me of local low end indies.   

Everything just seems so amateurish with a few high quality guys in the mix.  

How come back in the day ECW was able to put together a full roster of guys who could work and who actually looked like legit wrestlers / tough guys?

Is their that few guys on the open market?

 

You cant compare the 80's to today.  And even then, they still did goofy things with non wrestlers (Fink, Gene etc).  Vince was very against putting himself in the ring until Lawler convinced him to do an angle in USWA in early 90's.  But you cant be critical of Tony and ignore Vince putting himself in angles just because Vince did it 10 years into his run rather then year 1.  Its a common thing in modern wrestling to do goofy things for the live crowd.  That wasnt the case in the 80's.  When WWE did angles with Gene and Fink, it was on the live show, not "dark".

Nothing I've heard about Tony indicates he's a money mark.  Hes a smart guy and has a lot of other smart guys around him.

Dark Order is a mid card gimmick.  Wrestling, including WWE, have a long history of out of shape guys.  Hardly an AEW thing.  The whiffed punches was horrible.  It happens when using locals as extras sometimes.  I guarantee they'll be better vetted next time.  Since you obviously didnt see it, that whole show ending angle was terrible (there ya go).

Who was the biggest money mark locally (that didnt get in the ring).  In terms of promoters getting in the ring, you're conflating money mark with wrestler/promoter.  And you're subtly buyring all of them with remarks like "living their fantasies".   When an active wrestler is also a booker, they either book themselves too strongly or not strongly enough.  I generally disagree with the practice but most indies are started by active wrestlers so what are you going to do.

Outside of Ernie Todd, I cant think of any local promoters who egregiously put themselves in the ring (refresh my memory if Im missing out on anyone).  Wrestling is rife with examples of non-wrestlers doing angles/matches and there is nothing wrong with the concept inherently.  The execution is a different matter...

ECW had a lot of bad workers.  Lets not romanticize it.  RVD was arguably their biggest star and he was as green as a wrestler as he was great athletically for a long time.  What Paul did that WWE and WCW didnt, was give small great workers a shot (especially from Mexico & Japan when the big promotions thought they wouldnt draw in the US).  But those guys were quickly scooped up by WCW.

But WWE and WCW didnt horde talent back then.  WWE has a massive, massive roster, some of whom they keep for the purpose of keeping them from AEW.  Talent also wasnt paid like they are now.  AEW has a really good roster but they've been on TV for literally 3 months.  Their roster will get deeper as time goes on and contracts come due.

[ediger]

2 hours ago, Brandon said:

Well considering the owner is doing stunners....  I'm guessing it lasts as long as the money mark is willing to shell out the cash.  

It's definitely not looking like they are taking things seriously as a competitor to WWE when the money mark is delivering a stunner.  

I know it was more of a joke and afterwards but still concerning... 

WWE completely sucks ,  but at least people still know what it is.   AEW will never break into the mainstream with crap like they have above.  

Heaven forbid someone who enjoys wrestling and has the financial means to start a company does exactly that. This stunner happened after the show went off the air. It was a bit of fun for the people who purchased tickets. The horror!

Besides, the use of the term "money mark" says it all. It's like getting called a snowflake. It's really hard to take a person seriously when those phrases start getting tossed around. Multiple times in this case.

[ediger]

1 hour ago, The Unknown Poster said:

But WWE and WCW didnt horde talent back then.  WWE has a massive, massive roster, some of whom they keep for the purpose of keeping them from AEW.  Talent also wasnt paid like they are now.  AEW has a really good roster but they've been on TV for literally 3 months.  Their roster will get deeper as time goes on and contracts come due.

I honestly think that the wedding segment from Raw will have an affect on a few people's decision making process. There has to be at least one person with a contract about to expire who saw that and thought "fuuuuuck this"

[The Unknown Poster]

7 minutes ago, ediger said:

Heaven forbid someone who enjoys wrestling and has the financial means to start a company does exactly that. This stunner happened after the show went off the air. It was a bit of fun for the people who purchased tickets. The horror!

Besides, the use of the term "money mark" says it all. It's like getting called a snowflake. It's really hard to take a person seriously when those phrases start getting tossed around. Multiple times in this case.

I think people who arent wrestling fans (especially when they clearly have disdain for wrestling and wrestlers and fans) pick up some of the verbiage and use it incorrectly.   Im well acquainted with money marks....Tony K isnt one.

5 minutes ago, ediger said:

I honestly think that the wedding segment from Raw will have an affect on a few people's decision making process. There has to be at least one person with a contract about to expire who saw that and thought "fuuuuuck this"

It seems Sonya and Mandy are not happy.  They pitched a lesbian story but more in the vein of it being just a thing...like a normal coupling where they happen to both be women.  WWE said no.  But do this, which is akin to the old Hot Lesbian Action stuff.  It certainly had Heyman's finger prints but also Vince and Kevin Dunn.   Why tap the actual gay wrestler to do a gay story when you have a hotter, blonder straight wrestler to do it.  Definitely awkward.  

But there are plenty of WWE talent that have publicly whined and counted down their contract and then resigned with WWE.  WWE is offering huge raises.  And they're using their bad contracts as leverage (tacking on injury time etc).  Even Daniel Bryan...he and WWE disagreed about his end date.  It became moot when WWE offered him a huge deal.  

Not many will actively give up WWE money (for example, like Harper did).  Revival asked for their release and meant it so they'll be the next ones to watch as I believe they're up in spring.  There are rumours of a post WM house cleaning but I have my doubts.  WWE is carry a very very bloated roster right now though.  And AEW isnt taking everyone just because they worked for WWE.  I expect Harper to end up there...and the Revival.  Tessa...that will be one to watch cause WWE is going to offer her something crazy.  Look at New Day...tight with Kenny, still opted to stay with WWE for the big money.  And WWE is insisting on 5 year contracts.

[Brandon]

Who do you know that is a money mark in Winnipeg? 

[The Unknown Poster]

10 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Who do you know that is a money mark in Winnipeg? 

You said local money marks.  Why don’t you tell us....

[SpeedFlex27]

Brandon, in the 80's you had Bobby Heenan wrestling Greg Gagne in a chicken suit. Terry Taylor put red dye in his hair & was the Red Rooster. You had Doink The Clown. There were a lot of stupid angles back then just like today.

[Brandon]

19 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Brandon, in the 80's you had Bobby Heenan wrestling Greg Gagne in a chicken suit. Terry Taylor put red dye in his hair & was the Red Rooster. You had Doink The Clown. There were a lot of stupid angles back then just like today.

Yes but my point was that Vince didn't take over the company and then jump into the ring to live out his fantasy.   Khan clearly is doing so.   He has the money so why not,  but if they want to be taken seriously as a competitor they can't have him going around delivering crappy stunners.   Also sadly enough Vince even in the late 90's looked bigger then most of the AEW roster....  Khan does not look like a guy who can fight. 

[SpeedFlex27]

20 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Yes but my point was that Vince didn't take over the company and then jump into the ring to live out his fantasy.   Khan clearly is doing so.   He has the money so why not,  but if they want to be taken seriously as a competitor they can't have him going around delivering crappy stunners.   Also sadly enough Vince even in the late 90's looked bigger then most of the AEW roster....  Khan does not look like a guy who can fight. 

Wrestling suspends reality. Little guys beat big guys all the time.  Whether Khan steps into the ring now or 10 years from now what does it matter? In the 90's David Arquette won the WCW World Heavyweight Belt. How phoney was that? 

[Brandon]

7 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Wrestling suspends reality. Little guys beat big guys all the time.  Whether Khan steps into the ring now or 10 years from now what does it matter? In the 90's David Arquette won the WCW World Heavyweight Belt. How phoney was that? 

The Arquette winning the title was one of the main things that killed WCW (along with many others).  Many people look back at WCW dying after they did that.   That only validates my point...

 

[Goldkobra]

And vince had a title run, physique or not, it was still stupid. Stephanie had a women's titlevrun which sucked. Shane had a us title run. HHH booked himself as champ for years. WWE is entirely guilty of marking out in exactly the way tony khan did. 

[The Unknown Poster]

9 hours ago, Brandon said:

Yes but my point was that Vince didn't take over the company and then jump into the ring to live out his fantasy.   Khan clearly is doing so.   He has the money so why not,  but if they want to be taken seriously as a competitor they can't have him going around delivering crappy stunners.   Also sadly enough Vince even in the late 90's looked bigger then most of the AEW roster....  Khan does not look like a guy who can fight. 

Lol are you still on this?  You don’t even watch aew.  You obviously don’t like it.  Tony doing a goofy thing for the live crowd after a show has ZERO impact on whether aew is successful or not.   Just like Gene or Fink or Cindy Lauper’s manager or whomever doing a segment in the 80’s didn’t sound the death knell for wwe either.  
 

if you don’t like aew that’s cool.  If wwe is more your speed that’s cool too.  But you’re just wrong about 99% of your assertions.  
 

[The Unknown Poster]

9 hours ago, Brandon said:

The Arquette winning the title was one of the main things that killed WCW (along with many others).  Many people look back at WCW dying after they did that.   That only validates my point...

 

This isn’t true actually.   Also tony isn’t wrestling.   You’re arguing hypotheticals that haven’t happened.   Which also doesn’t matter.  You keep making points they are untrue and then won’t answer when asked about them.  If you don’t like wrestling why post in the wrestling thread?   
 

David A winning the wcw title had little to do with its collapse.  It already sucked. 
 

You mentioned Vince’s physique in the 90’s compared to aew today.  Firstly you can make the same comparison to wwe talent today.  Secondly most fans wouldn’t consider it sad that the use of steroids has dropped dramatically and so too has the amount of drug related wrestling deaths.    You can still admire physiques if you want but if that’s your main focus you’re missing out on what makes wrestling great.  

Edited January 1, 2020 by The Unknown Poster

[The Unknown Poster]

Going out of business!   Jokes aside, good for Kenny (and the rest).  Big money in merch. 

[MrFreakzilla]

8 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

David A winning the wcw title had little to do with its collapse.  It already sucked. 

Unfortunately you're only half correct. Yes WCW already sucked but him winning the world title 100% made the collapse go much faster. Denying it is laughable.

[The Unknown Poster]

10 minutes ago, MrFreakzilla said:

Unfortunately you're only half correct. Yes WCW already sucked but him winning the world title ir100% made the collapse go much faster. Denying it is laughable.

Meh it did hurt ratings for the following nitro although that was against a big raw.  And it stalled ticket sales for the next PPV.  But it came on a thunder and between two really good PPV shows.  Ratings suffered no long term effect. And David was only champion for less than two weeks.  
 

wcw had already lost a ton of money and fired and brought back Russo and Bischoff.  Had already lost the radicalz which was really the big step on the way down.  
 

it certainly didn’t help. But had wcw been even decent it wouldn’t have made a difference.   The finger poke of doom was over a year earlier. Wcw has been bad for a long time.   The David title change was a one PPV angle. 

[Brandon]

David A was a huge part of the WCW downfall,  it was definitely near the top or the main reason it went overboard and put the finish to the company.   Tonnes of other factors also played a part ,  but David A winning the title solidified the end of them.  WCW was never taken seriously after that.  Defining moment of how bad WCW was.

My opinion is completely valid because I don't have blinders on where you have a heavy bias and instant defense reaction to any criticism I give.    My points are completely valid and just because you don't want to hear the truth doesn't mean I'm wrong.  

If you don't want to hear my opinion then I'll post below a video of someone who clearly has way more credentials then you or I have and what he thought about AEW and the whole situation.  When wrestling royalty mocks your promotion it's a bad sign.   I don't agree with everything grumpy Cornette says but clearly he's right and his opinion clearly holds way more weight then anything I or yourself says.