Wrestling

[The Unknown Poster]

WWE getting some backlash this week over the trip to saudi. Women are not allowed to appear on the show. The backlash is partially about doing business with people that won’t allow women but moreso because wwe champions itself as a forward thinking company on women’s rights and equality. 

Some tslk that Jews are not allowed as well but last word wasn’t a Heyman will be there. 

The Saudi government bought the show and are using it for propaganda. They restricted single men to areas far from the ring. Of course single women aren’t allowed at all. But most of the seats are reserved for couples and families so they can show women (just not alone). 

Its very lucrative for wwe but it’s gross money.  I saw a journalist suggest wwe (or the top guys benefitting from this show) pay the women what they’d earn if they were allowed to appear.  Do something at least. 

[Brandon]

6 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Its very lucrative for wwe but it’s gross money.  I saw a journalist suggest wwe (or the top guys benefitting from this show) pay the women what they’d earn if they were allowed to appear.  Do something at least. 

So what you are trying to say is......

 

Everybody has a price!! 

[SpeedFlex27]

11 hours ago, Atomic said:

I like the Bludgeon bros!  I was never a Rowan fan but I think he's better now than he used to be.

B-O-R-I-N-G. Their characters are nothing. Rowan can barely wrestle. And 2 years ago he was getting his ass kicked in the ring by everyone after he left the Wyatt Family. 

[SpeedFlex27]

7 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

WWE getting some backlash this week over the trip to saudi. Women are not allowed to appear on the show. The backlash is partially about doing business with people that won’t allow women but moreso because wwe champions itself as a forward thinking company on women’s rights and equality. 

Some tslk that Jews are not allowed as well but last word wasn’t a Heyman will be there. 

The Saudi government bought the show and are using it for propaganda. They restricted single men to areas far from the ring. Of course single women aren’t allowed at all. But most of the seats are reserved for couples and families so they can show women (just not alone). 

Its very lucrative for wwe but it’s gross money.  I saw a journalist suggest wwe (or the top guys benefitting from this show) pay the women what they’d earn if they were allowed to appear.  Do something at least. 

I was wondering about this show... They should be criticized. They didn't have to sell the show to the Saudis but they did for $$$.

[Goalie]

3 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

I was wondering about this show... They should be criticized. They didn't have to sell the show to the Saudis but they did for $$$.

I would too. Lots of $$$ there

[SpeedFlex27]

Just now, Goalie said:

I would too. Lots of $$$ there

No amount of money is worth it if the WWE brand is irreparably damaged. 

[Goalie]

5 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

No amount of money is worth it if the WWE brand is irreparably damaged. 

It wont be. Its just a few ppl who always ***** bitching. Seriously... Nobody really cares. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Goalie

[Atomic]

7 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

No amount of money is worth it if the WWE brand is irreparably damaged. 

I don't see them suffering too much from this.  Pretty sure the US government supports Saudi Arabia so I don't know why the WWE should be held to a higher standard.

[The Unknown Poster]

1 hour ago, Goalie said:

It wont be. Its just a few ppl who always ***** bitching. Seriously... Nobody really cares. 

People do care  and there have been some news stories.  Criticism is fair regardless of whether you or I would make the deal for business reasons  

 

 

1 hour ago, Atomic said:

I don't see them suffering too much from this.  Pretty sure the US government supports Saudi Arabia so I don't know why the WWE should be held to a higher standard.

They won’t suffer but the backlash is warranted.  They claim it’s better to make these relationships and try to create change over time. But it really is money. 

As a public company they are obligated to maximize returns to their shareholders so I get that. 

The really icky part is their mainstream claims of pushing women’s rights (especially with Stephanie). 

Well find out later in  the year how much money they’re making. For their sake I hope it’s a lot. 

But either way you slice it the “culture” sucks. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by The Unknown Poster

[Goalie]

Meh. I dont see much backlash. I see a few ppl on twitter going on but they go on about everything.. While i think its brutal that women cant wrestle there... Its a different country a different culture.. For far 2 long.. North Americans have been pretending we know it all and our way of life is the only way. Well, hate to say it.. But... We are wrong. 

Im not saying Saudi Arabia is right.. Im just saying that just because they are different and have different rules... Doesn't mean they are wrong either.

Who am i to tell others how to live their lives? Especially in a country Ive never been 2.. Closest I've been? Last summer me and my girl.. We went to Dubai..

Fun place... Crazy adult water park and yeah its different but... It is what it is.. Its strange seeing things you dont normally or ever see in North America and yeah... Its odd but it is what it is. WWE is entertainment tho... Not sure why ppl want to hold them to a higher standard than the US government or Hollywood who has filmed movies there. 

[Brandon]

38 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Im not saying Saudi Arabia is right.. Im just saying that just because they are different and have different rules... Doesn't mean they are wrong either.

Confirmation... Goalie thinks women are far below men and should be our slaves and have no rights.    Wowza! 

[The Unknown Poster]

6 hours ago, Goalie said:

Meh. I dont see much backlash. I see a few ppl on twitter going on but they go on about everything.. While i think its brutal that women cant wrestle there... Its a different country a different culture.. For far 2 long.. North Americans have been pretending we know it all and our way of life is the only way. Well, hate to say it.. But... We are wrong. 

Im not saying Saudi Arabia is right.. Im just saying that just because they are different and have different rules... Doesn't mean they are wrong either.

Who am i to tell others how to live their lives? Especially in a country Ive never been 2.. Closest I've been? Last summer me and my girl.. We went to Dubai..

Fun place... Crazy adult water park and yeah its different but... It is what it is.. Its strange seeing things you dont normally or ever see in North America and yeah... Its odd but it is what it is. WWE is entertainment tho... Not sure why ppl want to hold them to a higher standard than the US government or Hollywood who has filmed movies there. 

Ummm...yes, yes they are wrong.  Like...really?  The treatment of women, religion (especially Jews), gays, etc.  Just google it.  Of course they are wrong.

In regards to WWE, if you only get your news from Twitter or only judge what is newsworthy from Twitter, you might have missed the BBC article about this issue.  Personally, I think the WWE is faring surprisingly well but they often fly under the radar when it comes to Media.

The issue isnt that WWE should be judged more harshly than other entertainment or sports companies or the government.  If the NHL or NFL or Disney did business there, we'd all rightly be critical of the finer details.  But now imagine any of those entities had a female EVP who was the face of the company who went around patting themselves on the back for their advancement of women's rights and then did business in Saudi where that EVP is suddenly conspicuously absent and all the female employees are absent.

We're not going to change the world on this forum and WWE isnt going to change Saudi Arabia by not going.  We dont know if WWE fought for the women and it was simply a non-starter with the Saudi's or if they were happy to sell them out.  Do I personally think WWE should have declined?  Probably not.  But if I was an exec with WWE I'd feel really gross about it.

Now imagine WWE announced a show where their black wrestlers werent allowed to work and black spectators could only attend in certain sections.  Of if the gay wrestlers had to stay home because they might be in physical danger.  I mean really...

Point being, the "no one cares about this at all" is a nice narrative change because it was a topic I posted, but its not true and its a very relevant discussion.  You're not obligated to take part but Ill commend you for having the courage to admit you side with the Saudi's on their treatment of women!

[The Unknown Poster]

Cause of death for Bruno was organ failure to due heart issues related to having rheumatic fever when he was 12.  He was very sickly as a boy (was denied entry to the US as an immigrant until he was healthy).  He didnt know he had heart issues until just a few years ago as he was so strong and fit, his heart compensated for the damage.  But he needed a new valve a few years ago.

Another wrestling death took place on April 14th.  Motoko Baba, wife of Giant Baba died.  She was the most powerful woman in wrestling of all time.  The Baba's owned All Japan Pro Wrestling.  She was 78.

[Atomic]

While I agree that Saudi Arabia's treatment of women and other minorities is abhorrent, right and wrong are relative terms.  There is no judge of right or wrong other than what society decides.  And just because western society has decided that certain views are right or wrong, doesn't make it objectively true on a global level.

[The Unknown Poster]

10 minutes ago, Atomic said:

While I agree that Saudi Arabia's treatment of women and other minorities is abhorrent, right and wrong are relative terms.  There is no judge of right or wrong other than what society decides.  And just because western society has decided that certain views are right or wrong, doesn't make it objectively true on a global level.

I think it does actually.  Saudi Arabia was the only nation where women were forbidden from driving (until last year).  So you could say society on a global level decided that women arent cattle, owned by the males in their family. 

There are many things by which the terms right and wrong apply quite obviously.

The thing with Saudi Arabia is, they are doing a full court press on propaganda to make the world believe they are changing.  There is a lot of internal pressure to change.  The women (and Im sure many men) in that country want change.  Its not like everyone there agrees with the culture and we're looking down our nose.  Its subjugation of their people against their will.  Their Vision 2030 plan is to create reform but its due to intense pressure.  So how much reform will happen, who knows.

The fact women can now vote and drive is great.  The fact it took til 2015 for that to begin is awful.  Women are still treated as property of their male relatives, need permission to have their own bank account, need permission to have many jobs.  I read something like the majority of University students are women but only 5% of the workforce is.  They simply are expected to be home for their men.  But clearly they want options.

Reportedly WWE is getting $25 million per year for ten years.   From their perspective, you cant turn down that money.  Although they are in the position now, more than ever before, to make take it or leave it demands.  They dont need the money.  But they arent just running a show there, they are actively taking part in propaganda.  Saudi Arabia bought that from WWE.  Which...you cant blame people for being uncomfortable with it.

If WWE truly believes they can use this deal to slowly move towards having their women on the show and having female fans in the crowd, then great.  Let's hope they can. 

It shouldn't seem like virtue signalling to be critical.  We can love WWE and enjoy the shows and enjoy the show on Friday too.  But they took money to do a show that segragtes their own roster and they have to pretend its great.  Change is inevitable and if it happens over the next ten years then WWE will look good.  Disney met with Saudi Arabia just this year to discuss future business.  The fact the Saudi's KNOW they have to change is proof the criticism is warranted. 

It could be worse, they could have sold part of WWE to the government like UFC did.  In fact, for $250 million, Im surprised Saudi didnt get a piece of the company (and maybe they wanted to and WWE refused).

Jerry lawler has said WWE will be paying their women anyway, which I hope is true and is the right thing to do (and they can clearly afford it).

[Brandon]

31 minutes ago, Atomic said:

While I agree that Saudi Arabia's treatment of women and other minorities is abhorrent, right and wrong are relative terms.  There is no judge of right or wrong other than what society decides.  And just because western society has decided that certain views are right or wrong, doesn't make it objectively true on a global level.

Sooooooooo  what you're saying is that just because some countries believe in mass genocide and the western culture disagrees....   it doesn't mean killing a massive amount of people is necessarily wrong?         Yiiiiiiiiikes.      

I wasn't aware that Atomic and Goalie don't believe in basic human rights and/or equality. 

 

[Atomic]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

Sooooooooo  what you're saying is that just because some countries believe in mass genocide and the western culture disagrees....   it doesn't mean killing a massive amount of people is necessarily wrong?         Yiiiiiiiiikes.      

I wasn't aware that Atomic and Goalie don't believe in basic human rights and/or equality. 

I do believe in them but the difference is that I don't force my beliefs on others.  Enjoy your day.

[Atomic]

1 hour ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I think it does actually.

It doesn't.  Morality is relative.  You may believe we've got it all right but in 50 years people may look back at us with disgust.  It doesn't mean we're wrong now, it just means that's where our society currently is.  And just like our society advanced naturally through internal struggle, we must respect the right of other societies to advance at their own pace.  It's the absolute height of privilege and entitlement to demand that other societies immediately change in response to changes in our own society.

[Atomic]

In my opinion, what the WWE is doing could potentially be a catalyst for large scale change in Saudi Arabia, which would be remarkable really.

Right now, they follow the Saudi rules and get their foot in the door.  Maybe next year it's a little looser and by the end they have women competing and watching in the crowd unfettered.

An all-or-nothing approach rarely works.  Chipping away slowly at old attitudes just might.

Quote

"I understand that people are questioning it, but you have to understand that every culture is different and just because you don't agree with a certain aspect of it, it doesn't mean it's not a relevant culture," Levesque said. "You can't dictate to a country or a religion about how they handle things but, having said that, WWE is at the forefront of a women's evolution in the world and what you can't do is affect change anywhere by staying away from it.

"While, right now, women are not competing in the event, we have had discussions about that and we believe and hope that, in the next few years, they will be. That is a significant cultural shift in Saudi Arabia."

While it's unfortunate the women won't be competing on what's being advertised as basically a secondary WrestleMania card, the hope is there for change in the future, as Levesque addressed. This year's Greatest Royal Rumble event is the beginning of a 10-year relationship between WWE and Saudi Arabia, and it would unquestionably be a monumental moment if, during this period, a change were to be implemented allowing the females to be included on the Saudi Arabian cards. 

 

[The Unknown Poster]

17 minutes ago, Atomic said:

In my opinion, what the WWE is doing could potentially be a catalyst for large scale change in Saudi Arabia, which would be remarkable really.

Right now, they follow the Saudi rules and get their foot in the door.  Maybe next year it's a little looser and by the end they have women competing and watching in the crowd unfettered.

An all-or-nothing approach rarely works.  Chipping away slowly at old attitudes just might.

 

Yes maybe. Hopefully they fought for their women and can chip away next year. This year though, Saudi bought and paid for WWE as a propaganda tool

Hunters remarks were so so 

it’s not a relevant culture when it treats women like property. He has three daughters.  He knows better. But that’s what Saudi money paid for. 

But I agree that hopefully change comes. It’s a ten year deal.  Women have worked in the Middle East. 

[The Unknown Poster]

31 minutes ago, Atomic said:

It doesn't.  Morality is relative.  You may believe we've got it all right but in 50 years people may look back at us with disgust.  It doesn't mean we're wrong now, it just means that's where our society currently is.  And just like our society advanced naturally through internal struggle, we must respect the right of other societies to advance at their own pace.  It's the absolute height of privilege and entitlement to demand that other societies immediately change in response to changes in our own society.

Come on. In 100 years maybe we’ll be living on Saturn and have only one gender 

Women as property is not a nuanced debate. It’s wrong. Period. And it’s wronf in Saudi Arabia where the women do not want to be property. Hence these propaganda moves by the government. 

They will give in eventually. 

[Atomic]

3 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Come on. In 100 years maybe we’ll be living on Saturn and have only one gender 

Women as property is not a nuanced debate. It’s wrong. Period. And it’s wronf in Saudi Arabia where the women do not want to be property. Hence these propaganda moves by the government. 

They will give in eventually. 

Yes it is wrong according to current western societal norms, I agree.

[Goalie]

10 years.. 100 to 200 million dollars rumored. Yeah, thats a lot of oil money

[Goalie]

13 hours ago, Brandon said:

Confirmation... Goalie thinks women are far below men and should be our slaves and have no rights.    Wowza! 

Thats what you get from that? 

The actual point... Pretty much see @Atomic posts. You and TUP want to push our western beliefs on these guys... Thats not how it works. Pushing beliefs on other countries is why the US gets bombed at times. 

Women are great.. Awesome... Should be equal... The oil tycoons disagree. They also won't allow balor to wear his balor is for everyone pride shirt... This also isn't WWEs first trip to Saudi Arabia either btw. 

10 years... Lots can happen.. Maybe in 10 years.. Things change.. Maybe they dont but 5 or so years ago women weren't allowed to wrestle in Dubai either.. They just did and the crowd was chanting.. "This is hope". Perhaps in 5 years or so.. They will be chanting that in Saudi Arabia also. 

 

Would i personally go there? Nope. For 100 to 200 million tho? As a business owner Id be stupid not to go. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Goalie

[Rich]

Lets try to get the discussion here back on wrestling.