Wrestling

[The Unknown Poster]

12 minutes ago, Brandon said:

David A was a huge part of the WCW downfall,  it was definitely near the top or the main reason it went overboard and put the finish to the company.   Tonnes of other factors also played a part ,  but David A winning the title solidified the end of them.  WCW was never taken seriously after that.  Defining moment of how bad WCW was.

My opinion is completely valid because I don't have blinders on where you have a heavy bias and instant defense reaction to any criticism I give.    My points are completely valid and just because you don't want to hear the truth doesn't mean I'm wrong.  

If you don't want to hear my opinion then I'll post below a video of someone who clearly has way more credentials then you or I have and what he thought about AEW and the whole situation.  When wrestling royalty mocks your promotion it's a bad sign.   I don't agree with everything grumpy Cornette says but clearly he's right and his opinion clearly holds way more weight then anything I or yourself says.  

I’ll let you in on a little secret.  Cornette is a work and tried to work with the bucks.  Shhhhh. Spare me you’re opinion when you have no knowledge of the subject.    I have zero blinders.  I’m just knowledgeable.  You’re not.  Opinions aren’t facts. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by The Unknown Poster

[ediger]

Now it makes sense. Should have assumed you were part of the Cult of Cornette or whatever they call it. That clown has proven himself to be out of touch and EXTREMELY biased time and time again. I don't give a **** how much experience the guy has, his opinions are utterly useless at this point. If he was in charge, he'd still be finding ways to put the belts on the Rock'n'Roll Express.

EDIT: And as TUP just mentioned. There's also the fact that he's like 80% character. At one point it was 100% but I genuinely think he's blurred the lines for so long that even he doesn't know where it is anymore and he's basically become his character to an extent.

Edited January 2, 2020 by ediger

[Brandon]

 

[The Unknown Poster]

10 minutes ago, ediger said:

Now it makes sense. Should have assumed you were part of the Cult of Cornette or whatever they call it. That clown has proven himself to be out of touch and EXTREMELY biased time and time again. I don't give a **** how much experience the guy has, his opinions are utterly useless at this point. If he was in charge, he'd still be finding ways to put the belts on the Rock'n'Roll Express.

EDIT: And as TUP just mentioned. There's also the fact that he's like 80% character. At one point it was 100% but I genuinely think he's blurred the lines for so long that even he doesn't know where it is anymore and he's basically become his character to an extent.

Yup.   I think he was mainly playing the grumpy old man character and buried bucks and Kenny. And then when he was booked for an Indy the bucks were also booked for he reached out to them and wanted to work an angle and they declined.   I think that’s where he went from total work to working himself into a shoot.   
 

Cornette was a brilliant manager.   But he also booked some awful stuff on wwe in the 90’s.  He’s out of touch.  
 

Anyone quoting cornette about modern wrestling is automatically losing the debate. Lol.   I mean the guy thinks Kenny sucks.  And his favourite gimmick is a white guy dropping n bombs in the south. So...super credible guy.   
 

what’s  funny about old guys like cornette is the really old guys said all the same things about the “young guys” in the 90’s. About how they were killing the business with their over bumping and selling.   It was always better back in their day lol  

Edited January 2, 2020 by The Unknown Poster

[Brandon]

2 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I’ll let you in on a little secret.  Cornette is a work and tried to work with the bucks.  Shhhhh. Spare me you’re opinion when you have no knowledge of the subject.   

I'll let you know also a secret.... you're being worked.   LOL it's hilarious the best part is that you are not aware of this. Cornette is old school in what he likes in a match , but when it comes to promos and building heat and knowing about actual wrestling he's a legend.   I may not agree with him thinking Omega fights like a girl (a bit of an over exaggeration)  he's dead on about Khan ,  The Bucks and how they put together a show.

I could post other videos and other comments made from people who really are/were in the wrestling industry and **** on AEW but I felt that Cornette did the best to explain everything.  If you hate him then I'm sure Mark Henry and Randy Orton should be legit enough for you to listen to. 

If you think it's all a work then do we need to talk about why the young bucks quit twitter because of allllllllllllll the negative reaction they received?    Dude the people who really are in the industry thinks they are off to a shakey start as in making bad decisions for the future.

Watch the last video.... they are talking about yourself....  just because you read the wrestling observer for 20 years does not make you an insider. 

I'm not saying the promotion is dead,  they have a money mark so they have a fighting chance.   It's just that so far they are blowing a golden opportunity and all the momentum that they have and they really need to improve on the quality of the product.  WCW was on top of the world and it only took them a year to throw it all in the garbage because they made the mistake of letting the boys run the company and run it to the ground.  

 

[Brandon]

2 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Anyone quoting cornette about modern wrestling is automatically losing the debate. Lol.   I mean the guy thinks Kenny sucks.  And his favourite gimmick is a white guy dropping n bombs in the south. So...super credible guy.  

Lets compare....   

Cornette vs Unknown Poster......  who has more credibility in wrestling.    Jeeze tough choice on who to pick.   One guy who has made it to the top and still is somewhat relevant in wrestling.   Another guy who puts on local shows once in a blue moon and who goes on a forum..... tough choice on who has more cred lol.  

 

[The Unknown Poster]

5 minutes ago, Brandon said:

I'll let you know also a secret.... you're being worked.   LOL it's hilarious the best part is that you are not aware of this. Cornette is old school in what he likes in a match , but when it comes to promos and building heat and knowing about actual wrestling he's a legend.   I may not agree with him thinking Omega fights like a girl (a bit of an over exaggeration)  he's dead on about Khan ,  The Bucks and how they put together a show.

I could post other videos and other comments made from people who really are/were in the wrestling industry and **** on AEW but I felt that Cornette did the best to explain everything.  If you hate him then I'm sure Mark Henry and Randy Orton should be legit enough for you to listen to. 

If you think it's all a work then do we need to talk about why the young bucks quit twitter because of allllllllllllll the negative reaction they received?    Dude the people who really are in the industry thinks they are off to a shakey start as in making bad decisions for the future.

Watch the last video.... they are talking about yourself....  just because you read the wrestling observer for 20 years does not make you an insider. 

I'm not saying the promotion is dead,  they have a money mark so they have a fighting chance.   It's just that so far they are blowing a golden opportunity and all the momentum that they have and they really need to improve on the quality of the product.  WCW was on top of the world and it only took them a year to throw it all in the garbage because they made the mistake of letting the boys run the company and run it to the ground.  

 

Dude.  Really.  The only one being worked here is you.  You’re working yourself into a shoot.  I’m not even sure what you’re angry about any more but it’s you debating me not jim cornette. 

1 minute ago, Brandon said:

Lets compare....   

Cornette vs Unknown Poster......  who has more credibility in wrestling.    Jeeze tough choice on who to pick.   One guy who has made it to the top and still is somewhat relevant in wrestling.   Another guy who puts on local shows once in a blue moon and who goes on a forum..... tough choice on who has more cred lol.  

 

But we both have more than you.  
 

why you mad bro?  If you don’t like wrestling why do you keep starting arguments in the wrestling thread.   If you want a legit discussion there are plenty of us fans here that would be happy to engage.   But drive by insults and sarcasm are silly.  You’re entitled to your opinion but not to making up facts.  

[Brandon]

LOL you said we .... as if you've done anything remotely close to what he has. You are a mark (not a money mark) just a regular mark. 

What facts did I make up,   I brought up facts and you didn't like what I brought up.    

Facts are....  they have a money mark,   they made questionable decisions,   dark order guy clearly didn't belong in the ring,   lots of negative reactions....    I question if they keep this up over the long term how long they last.     

The only opinions I really made was that Kenny Omega doesn't fight like a girl and that you are no where near the same league as Cornette when it comes to wrestling knowledge. 

I backed up my opinion on Cornette by using facts that he has and still does hold a high pedigree in wrestling while yourself you have ran local shows which is something but not much.  I don't follow local wrestling any more but the last I read was that a couple of guys started their own promotion and surpassed PCW instantly.... so what does that mean when it comes to the level of knowledge/talent it takes to run a local wrestling show?

I'd love to have a debate/conversation but every time on these boards when someone has a different opinion you instantly become defensive and act like a child.  IF you were to ever go on the Bombers portion of this bomber site then you would see many times that I've admitted when I was wrong with my opinions.  I've never seen you ever admit you are wrong.  Even when clearly you are.

My original question was over/under 1 - 2  years  (from today) is AEW still around?   They have a huge money mark which helps a tonne and I guess the question is how much money are they willing to lose/spend.  With their current product (this is now my opinion) I don't see them getting mainstream and away from the niche.   If they don't change how long do they plan to lose money/bleed. 

 

[Brandon]

36 minutes ago, ediger said:

Now it makes sense. Should have assumed you were part of the Cult of Cornette or whatever they call it. That clown has proven himself to be out of touch and EXTREMELY biased time and time again. I don't give a **** how much experience the guy has, his opinions are utterly useless at this point. If he was in charge, he'd still be finding ways to put the belts on the Rock'n'Roll Express.

EDIT: And as TUP just mentioned. There's also the fact that he's like 80% character. At one point it was 100% but I genuinely think he's blurred the lines for so long that even he doesn't know where it is anymore and he's basically become his character to an extent.

Definitely not a cult of cornette guy.   I find his stories funny but find him trying to hard to get attention.   It is a character but his opinions are valid,   maybe his method of delivery is tacky. He has points,  it just sometimes he goes way over board to get a reaction and it kind of makes it cringey.   His points on my videos about Khan and Dark Order though area dead on though.  

I find Brian Zane to be more tolerable and enjoyable to listen to.    Hannibal TV is also interesting to watch and he clearly thinks AEW is absolutely god awful.... but I don't hold him in high regards since he's more on the same level as a Danny Duggan or a lesser extend an Unknown Poster type of guy.  

It's hard to listen to people talk about AEW who are in the business because guys like Jim Ross are getting paid HUGE from the money mark so clearly he'll never say anything bad.  And other possible free agents won't crap on it because of the potential easy pay off that they'll get.  

Reminds me of Dixie Carter who also a money mark,   barely anyone crapped on her when she was shelling out pay cheques.... when the money runs out then everyone craps on her.   I guess it was the same with WCW when they had guys sitting at home for a year getting paid for doing no shows.... once that dried up everyone came out and crapped on them.

[The Unknown Poster]

11 minutes ago, Brandon said:

LOL you said we .... as if you've done anything remotely close to what he has. You are a mark (not a money mark) just a regular mark. 

What facts did I make up,   I brought up facts and you didn't like what I brought up.    

Facts are....  they have a money mark,   they made questionable decisions,   dark order guy clearly didn't belong in the ring,   lots of negative reactions....    I question if they keep this up over the long term how long they last.     

The only opinions I really made was that Kenny Omega doesn't fight like a girl and that you are no where near the same league as Cornette when it comes to wrestling knowledge. 

I backed up my opinion on Cornette by using facts that he has and still does hold a high pedigree in wrestling while yourself you have ran local shows which is something but not much.  I don't follow local wrestling any more but the last I read was that a couple of guys started their own promotion and surpassed PCW instantly.... so what does that mean when it comes to the level of knowledge/talent it takes to run a local wrestling show?

I'd love to have a debate/conversation but every time on these boards when someone has a different opinion you instantly become defensive and act like a child.  IF you were to ever go on the Bombers portion of this bomber site then you would see many times that I've admitted when I was wrong with my opinions.  I've never seen you ever admit you are wrong.  Even when clearly you are.

My original question was over/under 1 - 2  years  (from today) is AEW still around?   They have a huge money mark which helps a tonne and I guess the question is how much money are they willing to lose/spend.  With their current product (this is now my opinion) I don't see them getting mainstream and away from the niche.   If they don't change how long do they plan to lose money/bleed. 

 

You’re admitting you’ve lost the argument when you resort to lame insults.  I don’t know why you always do that.  It’s childish. 
 

You’re the one that involved cornette last opinion as if it added validity to yours and suggested you were somehow right because Jim has credibility on wrestling?  I merely pointed out that I have more than you. Which I do. Not more than jim.  He’s a legend.  Doesn’t make him right.  He’s wrong.  You don’t have to agree with me. But I’ll agree with guys like Kenny and the bucks.  Sorry!

You taking a shot at PCW is just so childish.  We’re the longest running promotion in Manitoba.  We’re also the best.  But you have a different opinion. That’s perfectly okay!   Plenty of options for fans in Winnipeg!

Yoire original point, which you then turned into a silly whizzing contest was that aew wouldn’t last a year so we can all come back here on June 1 and point out that was wrong.  Your evidence to support your absurd opinion was one bad angle on a show you admit you didn’t watch.   You then doubled down by criticizing tony for something that wwe has done a million times.  Tripled down by comparing Vince’s gassed up 90’s physique to aew for some reason, went off on local money Marks and promoters (and clearly don’t know what a mark is) and wouldn’t clarify when asked.  
 

It’s never personal to me and I love talking wrestling.  But you’re the only one who made insults, toward me and my promotion.  If you can admit when you’re wrong I’ll be glad to accept your apology.  If you go back a few pages I was super critical of aew’s last event.   And I’m always the first to admit when I’m wrong.   I’m just knowledgeable about wrestling.  If you actually like wrestling you should value the discussion.  Many here do!

also they ARE mainstream   And I can’t say they’re making money yet but they are ahead of their own projections   They have a very good deal with tnt  they’re in it for the long haul   Predicting their demise over one segment is just absurd   That’s not a serious discussion   

by the way, aew tonight was a much better show than two weeks ago.  You don’t have to like it though!   Lots of various promotions out there for everyone. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by The Unknown Poster

[The Unknown Poster]

AEW was great tonight!   Sure seems like they took criticism to heart and responded with a much better show.  Still need to work on that audio mix though.  Cool venue in JAX too.  

[Brandon]

19 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

also they ARE mainstream   And I can’t say they’re making money yet but they are ahead of their own projections   They have a very good deal with tnt  they’re in it for the long haul   Predicting their demise over one segment is just absurd   That’s not a serious discussion   

They are not mainstream at all.   I don't even think TNA ever reached mainstream.   ECW in it's hey day I don't think would of been considered main stream.   The average person doesn't have a hot clue about them.   I constantly have to explain who Kenny Omega is ,  I've yet to meet any non wrestling fans who know who he is.  Which sucks because he does deserve more attention.   Crap even WWE at this point isn't exactly main stream.... aside from the kids and old man crowd does anyone know any of the big current super stars that were not wrestling back in the glory days?  

People are familiar with the brand but the average person has no **** clue who Roman Reigns or Kofi Kingston is. 

It's not one segment .... it's the though process of thinking this is a good idea.  Clearly ideas will bomb.... but when you have momentum and come up with absolutely ridiculous things like this.....it's deja vu.  I almost expect a Kiss Demon and Kiss to be playing next week... that's what it reminds me of.   

I'm not saying I want demise.... it just seems very amateurish to do what they have been doing.  I would hope that instead of letting the inmates run the asylum that they would go through someone like Arn Anderson and he would tell these guys to smarten up because it's embarrassing and will not win over the casual fan that they will need.  I looked up Dark Order and first thing I thought of was this looks like indie level Insane Clown Posse.  At least with TNA when I first watched it I saw guys who looked like wrestlers and could perform in the ring.  

Also the cheap shots are because you keep saying you have experience and make it seem like your opinion holds weight when it clearly doesn't.  I've seen local wrestling and it doesn't take any kind of education or deep knowledge to put on a local show.  Their is no barrier of entry and clearly anyone can put on a show as I said before.  It's noble and nice that you have the passion and kept with it.  But this don't make it seem like it involved extreme skills or some kind of insider knowledge to put it on.  Maybe Danny Duggan may have a case with his Northern tours or the WFX guy since his shows were more elaborate (i.e. Money mark pays for more bells and whistles) but a local show at a bar or community club doesn't take much aside from knowing phone numbers,  getting a ring,  and paying out cash.  And before you say well have you ever put on a show ,  clearly the answer is no but I watched Ring Masters do it and outside of the quality of talent they paid for it's practically the same experience.  

Just because you do something for very long doesn't mean it's the best.  In fact on Facebook I have seen well done video ads from your competition.  They looked professional and much better then the typical wrestling taping flyer on a shop window kind of crap that used to work in  1995.    As of late it appears that they are doing a better at hitting potential customers. Its impressive that a brand new company surpassed someone doing it for 20 years in no time.   

As for the best in ring product,  that's subjective and as of late I can't comment since I have not been.  

Now if you were using your previous experiences training at real wrestling schools,   travelling across North America with wrestling as your career,  going to Japan / Mexico ,  gaining invaluable experience then that would be a different story.   Everyone is entitled to an opinion... just because you have a different opinion does not make your opinion the correct one. 

 

[The Unknown Poster]

2 minutes ago, Brandon said:

They are not mainstream at all.   I don't even think TNA ever reached mainstream.   ECW in it's hey day I don't think would of been considered main stream.   The average person doesn't have a hot clue about them.   I constantly have to explain who Kenny Omega is ,  I've yet to meet any non wrestling fans who know who he is.  Which sucks because he does deserve more attention.   Crap even WWE at this point isn't exactly main stream.... aside from the kids and old man crowd does anyone know any of the big current super stars that were not wrestling back in the glory days?  

People are familiar with the brand but the average person has no **** clue who Roman Reigns or Kofi Kingston is. 

It's not one segment .... it's the though process of thinking this is a good idea.  Clearly ideas will bomb.... but when you have momentum and come up with absolutely ridiculous things like this.....it's deja vu.  I almost expect a Kiss Demon and Kiss to be playing next week... that's what it reminds me of.   

I'm not saying I want demise.... it just seems very amateurish to do what they have been doing.  I would hope that instead of letting the inmates run the asylum that they would go through someone like Arn Anderson and he would tell these guys to smarten up because it's embarrassing and will not win over the casual fan that they will need.  I looked up Dark Order and first thing I thought of was this looks like indie level Insane Clown Posse.  At least with TNA when I first watched it I saw guys who looked like wrestlers and could perform in the ring.  

Also the cheap shots are because you keep saying you have experience and make it seem like your opinion holds weight when it clearly doesn't.  I've seen local wrestling and it doesn't take any kind of education or deep knowledge to put on a local show.  Their is no barrier of entry and clearly anyone can put on a show as I said before.  It's noble and nice that you have the passion and kept with it.  But this don't make it seem like it involved extreme skills or some kind of insider knowledge to put it on.  Maybe Danny Duggan may have a case with his Northern tours or the WFX guy since his shows were more elaborate (i.e. Money mark pays for more bells and whistles) but a local show at a bar or community club doesn't take much aside from knowing phone numbers,  getting a ring,  and paying out cash.  And before you say well have you ever put on a show ,  clearly the answer is no but I watched Ring Masters do it and outside of the quality of talent they paid for it's practically the same experience.  

Just because you do something for very long doesn't mean it's the best.  In fact on Facebook I have seen well done video ads from your competition.  They looked professional and much better then the typical wrestling taping flyer on a shop window kind of crap that used to work in  1995.    As of late it appears that they are doing a better at hitting potential customers. Its impressive that a brand new company surpassed someone doing it for 20 years in no time.   

As for the best in ring product,  that's subjective and as of late I can't comment since I have not been.  

Now if you were using your previous experiences training at real wrestling schools,   travelling across North America with wrestling as your career,  going to Japan / Mexico ,  gaining invaluable experience then that would be a different story.   Everyone is entitled to an opinion... just because you have a different opinion does not make your opinion the correct one. 

 

All you do is wrap uneducated opinions around cheap insults.  
 

If national television isn’t mainstream then let’s just quit the discussion.  There is a difference between mainstream and ubiquitous.  But I’ll consider that splitting hairs.  
 

if you want to debate promoting wrestling events....don’t bother. It’s your usual cheap insults crapping on something you’ve never done.  You have no idea what goes into producing a live event at any level.  
 

the issue isn’t me acting like my experience gives me undue knowledge.  It’s you acting like it doesn’t give me any at all.   We can disagree on opinions.  Facts are facts.  And I’ve been wrong a million times.  Always the first to admit it.  You just insult.  And honestly I’ve been insulted way worse by way better people. Doesn’t bother me.  But I am offended for all the people that made the effort and went out of business in the nearly 20 years I’ve been doing this.  They deserve more respect.   What Kenny thinks of me and PCW matters more to me.  I’m good with that.  
 

If you were open to a real discussion I can be honest about the bad as much as the good. (There is plenty of bad on wrestling especially local level). But you don’t.  You just want to argue cause you dislike me for some reason.   You’re not a wrestling fan.  Why keep talking about it?  
 

Nothing personal.  It just seems like a repetitive whiz contest with you.   I try very hard to not be condescending and I apologize if I come across that way.   There are a million people with more success and knowledge and accomplishments in wrestling than me. But whether you like it or not, I have experience and knowledge and accomplishments.  You can PM me if you want to talk privately.  I don’t need to post my resume here.  But my original point was merely to point out my difference of opinion from you.  You went into insults and silliness. Not me. 
 

By the way, aew considers next week to be their anniversary.  Hopefully they can make it a full year!  

[Brandon]

Agree to disagree

[The Unknown Poster]

5 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Agree to disagree

Deal! 

[Brandon]

I'll stick with the mainstream conversation.   I guess interpretation of what mainstream is would differ based on what the metric is.  I wouldn't even use being on national television as mainstream mainly because the younger generation does not have cable and a large margin stream (legally or illegally) all programming.   I'm not sure how it is in your circle of friends or co workers but for me it kind of crazy on how many people have Kodi boxes these days.   I don't know how any company can measure anything with so many people streaming.  

When I was referring to mainstream,  I was referring to it being popular among the general public.   It's alarming that WWE has to bring in guys from the past to get a cheap rating bump because so few of the young guys they groomed have broken into main stream.  Aside from Batista and Cena has anyone made it big in the last 15 years?  I wouldn't count Ronda Rousey since UFC was the one who popularized her. 

AEW has a long way to go to break it mainstream when guys like Omega become house hold names.  Sure these guys are making nice careers and selling good merch.... but it's nowhere near the level of 1998 Steve Austin / NWO  / DX shirts which you would see absolutely everywhere.  

Lets use UFC for example.... the brand is mainstream to a point that people refer to Mixed Martial Arts as UFC.   But the star power has dwindled massively over the last few years to a point where they are still trying to cling that one nugget of lightning that they hit when Mayweather put over McGregor.   They are practically begging GSP to come out of retirement again because at this point almost all of their champions / bigger stars are not mainstream.  Nobody has a hot clue who Kamaru Usman ,  Israel Adesanya, Alexander Volkanski are....  UFC are still profitable and are on big time tv with Fox.... but they are on a downward trend with ratings and PPV sales which doesn't make it look good for the future. 

Rome wasn't build in one day ,  but AEW has a mountain to climb before they hit mainstream.... if ever?   

[The Unknown Poster]

2 minutes ago, Brandon said:

I'll stick with the mainstream conversation.   I guess interpretation of what mainstream is would differ based on what the metric is.  I wouldn't even use being on national television as mainstream mainly because the younger generation does not have cable and a large margin stream (legally or illegally) all programming.   I'm not sure how it is in your circle of friends or co workers but for me it kind of crazy on how many people have Kodi boxes these days.   I don't know how any company can measure anything with so many people streaming.  

When I was referring to mainstream,  I was referring to it being popular among the general public.   It's alarming that WWE has to bring in guys from the past to get a cheap rating bump because so few of the young guys they groomed have broken into main stream.  Aside from Batista and Cena has anyone made it big in the last 15 years?  I wouldn't count Ronda Rousey since UFC was the one who popularized her. 

AEW has a long way to go to break it mainstream when guys like Omega become house hold names.  Sure these guys are making nice careers and selling good merch.... but it's nowhere near the level of 1998 Steve Austin / NWO  / DX shirts which you would see absolutely everywhere.  

Lets use UFC for example.... the brand is mainstream to a point that people refer to Mixed Martial Arts as UFC.   But the star power has dwindled massively over the last few years to a point where they are still trying to cling that one nugget of lightning that they hit when Mayweather put over McGregor.   They are practically begging GSP to come out of retirement again because at this point almost all of their champions / bigger stars are not mainstream.  Nobody has a hot clue who Kamaru Usman ,  Israel Adesanya, Alexander Volkanski are....  UFC are still profitable and are on big time tv with Fox.... but they are on a downward trend with ratings and PPV sales which doesn't make it look good for the future. 

Rome wasn't build in one day ,  but AEW has a mountain to climb before they hit mainstream.... if ever?   

Okay fair enough.  But you’re using the absolutely pinnacle of the business as the example for mainstream (Austin era wwe).  
 

Does anything really appeal to everyone?  If the NFL mainstream?  I think most people would say yes. But not everyone knows players names or even team names.  
 

Austin & Rock and nWo was an unheard of level of mainstream notoriety.  Mainly because it became cool and popular among youth.  Like you said wwe isn’t even like that anymore. 
 

But within the fandom of wrestling aew is certainly well known.  So really if wwe is mainstream aew is too. If wwe isn’t then ofcourse no one else is either.  
 

what shouldn’t be overlooked though is how popular the elite are.  Whether it’s enough to say they are mainstream or not.  The hot topic deal was huge.  Selling out arenas with no tv.  New japan doing big PPV numbers and house shows in the US.  It doesn’t make Omega Austin. But it moves the needle more than anyone has in a long time.   
 

AEW is big.  It’s the best tv deal anyone has gotten other than wwe since wcw.  They actually sell out more than wwe.   The contracts wwe offered the elite were crazy.  AEW isn’t impact.  Or ROH. Or MLW.  It’s not wwe but it’s #2 and no one else is close.   
 

So if the question is serious as to longevity.  2 years is super safe bet.  Barring a total collapse of their business or the Khans going bankrupt I think they’re in it for the long haul.   
 

Booking will ebb & flow.  I thought their last show two weeks was terrible.  But honestly despite thinking I am biased, I watch every week and complain about numerous things.  I’m hyper critical because I know how important their success is.  Tonight’s show was way better.  But wwe booking is more often than not awful.  So booking doesn’t always equal success or failure.  It usually takes a long time of awful booking to sink a company (wcw). 
 

Tony K could wrestle next week and it won’t hurt aew at all.  Just like any number of non wrestlers wrestling for wwe doesn’t.   And the thing about using mark derogatory is that everyone in wrestling is a mark or we wouldn’t do it.   Is tony a money mark?  I don’t think.  He financed aew because of certain things happening that had they not happened, he wouldn’t have (All In, the elite being available, Jericho, multiple tv deal offers etc).  
 

the big hurdle for aew will be their next tv deal.  And you can say the same about wwe who is under performing their network expectations.  They’ll exist as long as someone is willing to pay them to be on tv and as long as tony is “all in”.  He’s a life long “smark” so I don’t seek him losing interest as long as business is good.  

[Brandon]

Totally unrelated.... I tried sending you a private message and the site said that you could not receive any private messages....  maybe check to see if you got it because I sent a long winded message. 

Back to topic -  I'd say in the 80's  everyone knew who Hogan, Savage, Ultimate Warrior and Andre the Giant were.   Even a lot of the secondary talent was quite popular such as Hillbilly Jim,  Rick Rude,  Beefcake,  Million Dollar Man etc....

90's -   Bret Hart,  Stone Cold,  Goldberg, Undertaker, The Rock.... 

00's  - Lesnar, Cena , Bastista...

10's -  ????

The NFL is on a downswing of popularity (while the NBA is scooping up all the eyes) and I'd say I see more jerseys of football players then Bullet Club or Wyatt shirts.....   I'd also say the Super Bowl ratings kind of still prove that EVERYONE still watches the big game.  Not just football fans.  

Going back to UFC everyone knew who GSP and Rousey were....  hence why they started getting roles in mainstream movies like Fast and the Furious and Captain America.   

Wrestling appears to be at  it's lowest so clearly it won't become a huge hit over night again... but as what one of those Cornette videos said near the end.... if they keep doing corny stupid **** then how can they expect to regain all the lost wrestling fans from the glory days.  

 

[The Unknown Poster]

34 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Totally unrelated.... I tried sending you a private message and the site said that you could not receive any private messages....  maybe check to see if you got it because I sent a long winded message. 

Back to topic -  I'd say in the 80's  everyone knew who Hogan, Savage, Ultimate Warrior and Andre the Giant were.   Even a lot of the secondary talent was quite popular such as Hillbilly Jim,  Rick Rude,  Beefcake,  Million Dollar Man etc....

90's -   Bret Hart,  Stone Cold,  Goldberg, Undertaker, The Rock.... 

00's  - Lesnar, Cena , Bastista...

10's -  ????

The NFL is on a downswing of popularity (while the NBA is scooping up all the eyes) and I'd say I see more jerseys of football players then Bullet Club or Wyatt shirts.....   I'd also say the Super Bowl ratings kind of still prove that EVERYONE still watches the big game.  Not just football fans.  

Going back to UFC everyone knew who GSP and Rousey were....  hence why they started getting roles in mainstream movies like Fast and the Furious and Captain America.   

Wrestling appears to be at  it's lowest so clearly it won't become a huge hit over night again... but as what one of those Cornette videos said near the end.... if they keep doing corny stupid **** then how can they expect to regain all the lost wrestling fans from the glory days.  

 

I must have been at max messages.  I deleted some of you still have it and want to send it my way!

wrestling is at an ebb for sure.  Although there were times wwe was close to bankruptcy.   The big thing is the absolute hemorrhage of fans since wcw closed.   DVR numbers are interesting for that reason.   It doesn’t mean anything to networks but it shows how people are watching differently.  Have to figure out how to monetize that.  
 

Wwe red flag is their audience is so old.  They basically lose all their young viewers.  What happens when their old viewers leave or die?   Aew has young viewers but can’t get the over 50.   
 

Wrestling should be a variety show.   Corny can work in doses.   Dark Order segment was terrible.  Aew knows it was terrible.   Their show tonight was a clear direction change.  They heard the critics. What about wwe?  The wedding on raw? Awful.  And I like the story telling aspects.  I can dig corny. I can dig goofy.  But that was brutal.  Arguably worse than the dark order (except dark order buried half the top guys on aew). 

[Brandon]

For myself what was the draw for me with the WWE was the personalities of the wrestlers more so the scripts given to them. Everything just seems so forced and wooden on WWE these days. 

 

[ediger]

11 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I must have been at max messages.  I deleted some of you still have it and want to send it my way!

wrestling is at an ebb for sure.  Although there were times wwe was close to bankruptcy.   The big thing is the absolute hemorrhage of fans since wcw closed.   DVR numbers are interesting for that reason.   It doesn’t mean anything to networks but it shows how people are watching differently.  Have to figure out how to monetize that.  
 

Wwe red flag is their audience is so old.  They basically lose all their young viewers.  What happens when their old viewers leave or die?   Aew has young viewers but can’t get the over 50.   
 

Wrestling should be a variety show.   Corny can work in doses.   Dark Order segment was terrible.  Aew knows it was terrible.   Their show tonight was a clear direction change.  They heard the critics. What about wwe?  The wedding on raw? Awful.  And I like the story telling aspects.  I can dig corny. I can dig goofy.  But that was brutal.  Arguably worse than the dark order (except dark order buried half the top guys on aew). 

I'm definitely in the minority but I didn't entirely hate the Dark Order takeover segment. At least the idea of it. Like if you just think about it without thinking about how it actually went down. The visual of this massive group of identical characters swarming wrestlers and overwhelming them is pretty cool. It's like something out of Batman. But somewhere along the line, the execution failed (those horrid punches and keeping the camera on them didn't help). Overall I'm ok with trying something you think might be cool, seeing it fail and moving on. Better than planning something you KNOW will suck and then spending 4 weeks cramming down people's throats and trying to make it work.

[johnzo]

was intrigued by the Dark Order at first but Lucha Underground did stories like that like a million times better.

Let me know when the leader of the Dark Order kills the house band, makes a throne of their skulls, and presides over the ring like Thulsa Doom while Cody cowers in an undisclosed location.

****, I miss Lucha Underground.

[The Unknown Poster]

45 minutes ago, ediger said:

I'm definitely in the minority but I didn't entirely hate the Dark Order takeover segment. At least the idea of it. Like if you just think about it without thinking about how it actually went down. The visual of this massive group of identical characters swarming wrestlers and overwhelming them is pretty cool. It's like something out of Batman. But somewhere along the line, the execution failed (those horrid punches and keeping the camera on them didn't help). Overall I'm ok with trying something you think might be cool, seeing it fail and moving on. Better than planning something you KNOW will suck and then spending 4 weeks cramming down people's throats and trying to make it work.

I suspect it was a Bucks idea and I see what they wanted to do, just as you say.  Two things that made it not work for me.  1) as the main event, it raised expectations too much  2) Dark Order werent over enough yet.  I liked the vignettes but they needed a few more weeks.  And I also think them beating up virtually the entire elite was a bad idea, especially if they arent going to work with Kenny & Cody.

Selfless guys for sure, to take that beating to try and get them over.  But if it had just been the Bucks, might have worked better.

It was clear last night (and I've seen it reported), AEW took to heart a lot of feedback.  Even with Jericho mentioning the multiple "recruitment" angles, which I roundly complained about.  The video to start, putting over the Elite not being dominant and then them winning a great match.  Much more focused show.

[ediger]

8 minutes ago, johnzo said:

was intrigued by the Dark Order at first but Lucha Underground did stories like that like a million times better.

Let me know when the leader of the Dark Order kills the house band, makes a throne of their skulls, and presides over the ring like Thulsa Doom while Cody cowers in an undisclosed location.

****, I miss Lucha Underground.

I can't argue against this.

[ediger]

4 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I suspect it was a Bucks idea and I see what they wanted to do, just as you say.  Two things that made it not work for me.  1) as the main event, it raised expectations too much  2) Dark Order werent over enough yet.  I liked the vignettes but they needed a few more weeks.  And I also think them beating up virtually the entire elite was a bad idea, especially if they arent going to work with Kenny & Cody.

I think the timing and resolution was a big part of it's failure. It didn't set up anything directly. If they just wanted to establish the Dark Order as a ****-disturbing pack of madmen, they could have done that during any match. However, because they didn't continue to force the issue, the damage from that segment has been mitigated. Try that again the week after and you've killed the Dark Order.

Edited January 2, 2020 by ediger