Wrestling

[SpeedFlex27]

6 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

You are correct.  Rating have hovered around historic lows for RAW and it is concerning.  WWE promised its investors a far larger revenue package from their cable partner than they got and if their contract was up today, they'd likely get less.

Saying that, however, many outside factors come into play.  The accuracy of Neilson ratings (and they are adjusting how they calculate actually) is one.  The "plus" numbers (the people who watch days later on PVR) which was heavily touted by Dixie Carter but isnt taken that seriously by cable companies because most people watching on delay are skipping the commercials (which is how they make their money).  And the perceived value of wrestling viewers.  For example, 3 million wrestling viewers is not as valuable as 3 million MMA viewers due to the perception of wrestling fans as lower class.

But even if ratings continue to decline, USA might offer WWE a raise.  Because RAW is still highly rated compared to most things on USA and cable, it raises the profile of USA.  So they might not generate advertising dollars but they earn the right to brag about their overall ranking and *that* helps sell sponsorship.  And it really comes down to the landscape of cable money. 

WWE thought they'd get a huge package last time out because of the skyrocketing fees paid to sports packages.  WWE suddenly started claiming it was PVR-proof like other sports after years of claiming to not be sport.  WWE was wrong.  But content is king and cable companies will want content.

UFC's deals expire first and they will tell a big tale about what WWE can expect.  WWE has been trying to make itself "cancellation proof" with the Network and in essence, they are very insulated from risk of going out of business under their current model.  The cable package more or less represents the gravy of their revenue.

One thing that irks me and clearly others is that while they want to be a "sport" when its time to negotiate a new cable package, their booking is so much the opposite of this.  They want to be PVR proof but their booking lends itself to PVR'ing because nothing ever happens and there is so much fluff to fast forward through. 

The point is this, though - ratings still tell the tale.  Ratings are at historic lows.  The trends of those ratings tell an even bigger tale, that fans are being siphoned off at a pretty alarming rate and are far more likely now to choose to watch something else more interesting.  During the Monday Night War, wrestling was dealing a huge blow to the NFL which is insane to imagine.  But now, football kicks WWE's ass.  RAW is now the "if nothing else is on Ill watch" show.

WWE currently has the best collection of talent perhaps in wrestling history (WCW notwithstanding) and is often times painfully boring. 

When the cable deal expires, will the chickens come home to roost?  Probably not.  But you can bet WWE is cognizant of the possibility.

Personally, I think WWE's end game is a sale to a large conglomerate like Disney that could leverage the obvious synergy or a large touring company such as the case was with UFC.  But the UFC deal has hurt UFC badly and they are going to be belt tightening for a long time to pay that debt.

Thanks for the summary.

[The Unknown Poster]

Further to this discussion,

UFC currently gets $120 million per year in TV rights fees.  The key to UFC getting $4b sale price was the feeling that they were hugely profitable off the rights fees and that their next deal (current package expires end of 2018 but they can shop around later this year) would be $250-$400 million per.

But the excitement of UFC's sale has died a lot since.  They chose to sell at the most amazingly timed moment in their history.

WWE gets about $140 million per year.  Their contract expires Sept 2019.  They can re-negotiate/shop end of next year so while the ratings this year are a concern, next year's are the key.  An analyst with BTIG claims WWE is under-paid for their programming and could get $400 in their next deal and feels Facebook will step up with a huge offer to stream the shows.

One thing he didnt really address, and I think is the main fault in his argument, is what I mentioned before, WWE's 3 million people is not as valuable as NFL's 3 million or many other things because of the stigma of wrestling.

If Facebook offered that kind of money, I think WWE has to take it.  But I'd be fearful of the decline in viewers versus a cable TV home that you've been at for most of your existence.  When WWE went to Spike, even though Spike was a pretty big station with huge penetration, the ratings automatically dropped.  Giving up USA would be a dangerous move.

Plus, you're only worth as much as someone is willing to pay and WWE literally had no legitimate suiters but USA last time. 

FB paid $50 million to simulcast NFL so the feeling is, with the big 3 (or 4) sports leagues locked up in cable deals, FB would be willing to blow the bank on a WWE or UFC package. 

[The Unknown Poster]

Here's a fun story courtesy of Meltzer:

There was a story 7/17 when GFW had meetings in Nashville and WWE had Raw in the city and some GFW people and WWE people ended up at the same bar later that night. Karen Jarrett came up to Strowman. The belief is that Strowman had no idea who she was, even though it’s not like there are that many woman wrestling fans who look like her.

Karen said to him that he was one of her son’s favorite wrestlers and asked for an autograph for her son. I’m not sure what got into Strowman but he was rude, and may have sworn at her (the version I heard had it but that’s from someone far enough away that they didn’t hear the verbiage of what started it but was told he did, but everyone there saw what happened next).

It turned into a scene at the bar because Karen immediately cut a major loud promo on him for blowing her off. While she was going off on him, she said how she was going to tell her son’s father about this incident, and her son’s father is Kurt Angle.

Strowman did an about face, said he’d sign the autograph and begged her not to tell Kurt or anyone and said he was so sorry. She said she was telling Kurt. He said he’d get on his knees and beg her not to tell Kurt. She said she was still telling him.

He did get on his knees in front of a lot of wrestlers from WWE and begged her not to, and she basically said something like now you’re acting like that because you found out that Kurt Angle is the father of her son, but even if he wasn’t, he should have never acted like that to a mother who asked for an autograph for her son, even if it was just another wrestling fan. He did say that’s true and he was sorry.

Of course this story will be denied all week by everyone involved

[Atomic]

Lol that story is so ridiculous, I simply can't believe it is even remotely true.  He got on his knees and begged her not to tell Kurt Angle?  Really?

[The Unknown Poster]

8 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Lol that story is so ridiculous, I simply can't believe it is even remotely true.  He got on his knees and begged her not to tell Kurt Angle?  Really?

It does sound unbelievable.  Dave says multiple people saw it.  He doesnt say if his sources were the TNA gyys exclusively (which would be biased) or a mix of both.  In my mind, if it happened, I'd imagine Strowman joking sort of sarcastically saying "what, you want me to get on my knees and beg forgiveness?"  But Strowman is basically a rookie and Angle is a top guy but even still, I guarantee Strowman is in WAY worse trouble if he got on his knees to Karen Angle in public then if he told her to **** off.  But he also could have been drunk.

Also the story sounds exactly like all the other stories about Karen.

[The Unknown Poster]

For you WWE business wonks, they released their 2nd quarter results today.  Summation by Mr Meltzer:

WWE announced Thursday that they set a record for revenue of $214.6 million for the WrestleMania quarter, finishing with $5.1 million in profits as compared to $199 million in revenue and $800,000 in profits for the same quarter last year

The big key was less spending on the WWE Network. With fewer original non-wrestling shows, the profit margin for Network and pay-per-view was $1.2 million for the quarter instead of $8.3 million in losses for the same period one year ago. Actual subscribers were up four percent as of June 30th, but the number of people who canceled was also the largest in the history of the Network.

Television, based on new deals and escalating deals, also increased in profitability and when it comes to overall profitability, it is still television and live shows that carry things. Live event profitability was down even though business was steady. North American shows were slightly up in attendance when you factor out WrestleManias each year (with WrestleMania, things were down based on the larger venue capacity last year).

North American non-Mania attendance went from 5400 to 5500 due to the increased number of pay-per-views that draw a larger attendance. Including WrestleMania in the average, it would be a decline from 6600 to 6400. Overseas shows fell from an average of 8000 to an average of 6300, but the drop was partially due to adding a lot more events in new markets.

As compared to previous calls, the company provided significantly less information past the numbers themselves with Vince McMahon praising Paul Levesque's work in the women's division and how quarter hour numbers show fans are responding better to the women.

They also pushed their new localized versions of WWE shows in the Middle East and India as helping to build popularity.

The Network Numbers

Aside from television revenue, which is a fixed contractual number, the biggest number is the WWE Network number. On June 30th, the WWE Network grew slightly to 1,568,000 subscribers as compared to 1,511,000 at the same point last year.

In the second quarter of 2016, the Network gained 625,000 new paying subscribers while losing 471,000 (people who let their subs lapse after WrestleMania). This year, during the second quarter, the company gained 598,000 new paying subscribers while losing 604,000.

Last year, it was the second quarter that gained the most subscribers of any quarter while this year they actually lost subscribers during the same period even with producing more PPVs in the quarter than the year before.

As far as the other divisions, Home Entertainment was down 10 percent in profits, digital media had a stronger quarter with $1.4 million in profits, and while venue merchandise was down significantly, licensing and WWE Shop revenue were up.

[Atomic]

Honestly I considered dropping the Network after Mania but ended up keeping it.  I can see why people would want to.  The best time for WWE is January-April.  The rest of the year.... especially right now... can get pretty tedious.  Battlegrounds was the low point of the year and I'm never really all that impressed with Summerslam.

[The Unknown Poster]

9 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Honestly I considered dropping the Network after Mania but ended up keeping it.  I can see why people would want to.  The best time for WWE is January-April.  The rest of the year.... especially right now... can get pretty tedious.  Battlegrounds was the low point of the year and I'm never really all that impressed with Summerslam.

Their whole business model is based on people forgetting or not going to the "trouble" of cancelling.  They certainly arent doing anything to make the Network worth keeping post WrestleMania.  Well, maybe thats not fair.  They are doing the women's thing.  But reducing their spend on original programming would seem to be the opposite of what you'd do.

Their viewership tells them that the archives are really not that popular, although I dont think they promote the archives as much as they should.  I wish they did more original documentaries.  The Monday Night War docum-series was great even if it wasnt wholly accurate.  The JBL series was good too but cancelled.

They should do a writer's room TV show. Or have a camera follow Kevin Dunn around which I bet would produce many unintended gems.  Call it "Well Dunn".

[Atomic]

I watch PPV's and that's pretty much my entire usage.  Very occasionally I will watch something from the archive or change the channel to WWE if there is literally nothing else on.  I don't mind catching random matches from old PPVs sometimes.

[SpeedFlex27]

Bailey with a legit shoulder injury suffered in her Smackdown match vs Naya Jax. Her PPV match at Summer Slam with Alexa Bliss may not take place. 

Edited August 5, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[Taynted_Fayth]

is it just me or is the commentating in wrestling just gone to ****. On top of my issue with Booker T's often mumbled nonsense,  they keep dropping these awful references.  Like after Lesnar F5's the Miz, Bo Dallas and Curtis Axel, I believe it's Michael Cole who says "We haven't seen that many F5s since Sharknado!"  and later on references The Big Show and Enzo as radioactive man and fall out boy??

[SpeedFlex27]

55 minutes ago, Taynted_Fayth said:

Is it just me or is the commentating in wrestling just gone to ****. On top of my issue with Booker T's often mumbled nonsense,  they keep dropping these awful references.  Like after Lesnar F5's the Miz, Bo Dallas and Curtis Axel, I believe it's Michael Cole who says "We haven't seen that many F5s since Sharknado!"  and later on references The Big Show and Enzo as radioactive man and fall out boy??

Anything with The Miz now  I just change the channel.  Miz this & Miz that.  Now, it's the Miztourage trying to revive the careers of 2 loser wrestlers in Bo Dallas & Curtis Axel  in a storyline ? They should have been fired 2 years ago. Like I'm out for 10 minutes until the segment is over. However, Raw is better than it has been. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[The Unknown Poster]

9 hours ago, Taynted_Fayth said:

is it just me or is the commentating in wrestling just gone to ****. On top of my issue with Booker T's often mumbled nonsense,  they keep dropping these awful references.  Like after Lesnar F5's the Miz, Bo Dallas and Curtis Axel, I believe it's Michael Cole who says "We haven't seen that many F5s since Sharknado!"  and later on references The Big Show and Enzo as radioactive man and fall out boy??

Kevin Dunn's influence.  Absolutely awful.  Wrestling should be called like a sport.  Booker is there because David Otunga was filming a movie or something and you can guess why it HAD to be Booker who filled in.

[The Unknown Poster]

Supposedly the WWE event in Winnipeg end of September is Brock vs Joe.  Which is a very expensive main event for a Winnipeg house show.  I can only assume its because Brock lives so close.  Subject to change.

[Atomic]

22 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Supposedly the WWE event in Winnipeg end of September is Brock vs Joe.  Which is a very expensive main event for a Winnipeg house show.  I can only assume its because Brock lives so close.  Subject to change.

Yeah they were advertising that on commercials during RAW last week.  The lineup for the Winnipeg show looks spectacular.

[The Unknown Poster]

1 minute ago, Atomic said:

Yeah they were advertising that on commercials during RAW last week.  The lineup for the Winnipeg show looks spectacular.

Its really weird of them to advertise it when they have a stipulation about Brock leaving WWE if he loses at Summerslam.  But I guess they dont really care about being consistent.

[Atomic]

1 minute ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Its really weird of them to advertise it when they have a stipulation about Brock leaving WWE if he loses at Summerslam.  But I guess they dont really care about being consistent.

Yeah I thought the same thing.  But their house show ads have always seemed to live in a different universe than what they are showing on RAW and Smackdown.  I guess it comes down to business vs. kayfabe.  If you know Brock is going to be there, you advertise it now to get ticket sales.... **** the storyline lol.

[Goalie]

Interesting.. Not sure if anyone was aware of this... Former Bomber receiver.. Robert "Bobby Gorgeous" Gordon is now a talent scout for WWE... Reports directly to HHH. 

[SpeedFlex27]

On ‎8‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 8:14 AM, The Unknown Poster said:

Kevin Dunn's influence.  Absolutely awful.  Wrestling should be called like a sport.  Booker is there because David Otunga was filming a movie or something and you can guess why it HAD to be Booker who filled in.

Booker is terrible. Meanwhile, they benched or fired Jerry Lawler. 

[Goalie]

14 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Booker is terrible. Meanwhile, they benched or fired Jerry Lawler. 

The 3 man announce teams are awful. 

Cole and Greaves would be fine. No need for Booker or Otunga or really anyone else. 

Booker sucks tho. 

[SpeedFlex27]

1 minute ago, Goalie said:

The 3 man announce teams are awful. 

Cole and Greaves would be fine. No need for Booker or Otunga or really anyone else. 

Booker sucks tho. 

Never understood why they sacked Lawler for those guys. 

[Goalie]

14 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Never understood why they sacked Lawler for those guys. 

Hes past his best before date. 

Cole and Greaves would be fine. 

[SpeedFlex27]

Just now, Goalie said:

Hes past his best before date. 

Cole and Greaves would be fine. 

What makes you think that? He was still hugely popular on the stick considering what they replaced him with. He could have stayed with Cole on Raw & Graves could have done Smackdown. There really was no need to change. 

[The Unknown Poster]

2 hours ago, Goalie said:

Interesting.. Not sure if anyone was aware of this... Former Bomber receiver.. Robert "Bobby Gorgeous" Gordon is now a talent scout for WWE... Reports directly to HHH. 

Hunter is hired other pro sports athletes as scouts and talent employees. Hasn't always worked out. While talent is talent, generally you'd want people that get wrestling to be scouting for wrestling. 

[The Unknown Poster]

32 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Never understood why they sacked Lawler for those guys. 

Age. Dunn is very agist.