2016 Lines

[IC Khari]

If it means trading Myers, I'd stick with what we have. The 2nd pick may turn out to be a generational type player (like Teemu) that transforms our team into a contender, number 4 may be another Josh Morrisey type (who's good but not quite cut of the same cloth).

[Atomic]

I find it very interesting that the overwhelming narrative when the Jets moved to Winnipeg was that the Thrashers had brought up players too quickly and ruined them (Kane, Burmi, Bogo).  That doesn't seem to be a concern anymore as we rush to get as many 18-20 year olds in the lineup as possible...

[The Unknown Poster]

1 minute ago, Atomic said:

I find it very interesting that the overwhelming narrative when the Jets moved to Winnipeg was that the Thrashers had brought up players too quickly and ruined them (Kane, Burmi, Bogo).  That doesn't seem to be a concern anymore as we rush to get as many 18-20 year olds in the lineup as possible...

Are we rushing to get as many 18 year olds as possible into the line up?  I would say no.  I would say the exceptions like Ehlers dont prove the rule. 

Plenty of 18-20 year olds not being rushed at all.

[Atomic]

1 minute ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Are we rushing to get as many 18 year olds as possible into the line up?  I would say no.  I would say the exceptions like Ehlers dont prove the rule. 

Plenty of 18-20 year olds not being rushed at all.

There was Ehlers last year.  I'd argue Lowry was gifted a top 9 spot without really earning it and I'm not sure what he's done to keep it.  Copp, similar.  Now we're looking at bringing in both Connor and Laine.

I prefer the approach we took with Scheifele.  Make the kid earn a spot.

[FrostyWinnipeg]

20 minutes ago, Atomic said:

I find it very interesting that the overwhelming narrative when the Jets moved to Winnipeg was that the Thrashers had brought up players too quickly and ruined them (Kane, Burmi, Bogo).  That doesn't seem to be a concern anymore as we rush to get as many 18-20 year olds in the lineup as possible...

Kane/Bogo's best years were their first in WPG so I'm not sure if it's relevant. Burmi I'd say yes but its really a talent thing. You have it right away or u don't.

[The Unknown Poster]

18 minutes ago, Atomic said:

There was Ehlers last year.  I'd argue Lowry was gifted a top 9 spot without really earning it and I'm not sure what he's done to keep it.  Copp, similar.  Now we're looking at bringing in both Connor and Laine.

I prefer the approach we took with Scheifele.  Make the kid earn a spot.

Lowry was an injury call up if I recall correctly who earned the spot through really good play at that time. 

Im not sure who would have beaten out Copp for the 4C role.

Laine is considered a player ready to play regardless of which team drafts him. 

Connor (and Copp) are different in that they cant be sent to junior.

[Atomic]

1 minute ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Lowry was an injury call up if I recall correctly who earned the spot through really good play at that time. 

Im not sure who would have beaten out Copp for the 4C role.

Laine is considered a player ready to play regardless of which team drafts him. 

Connor (and Copp) are different in that they cant be sent to junior.

Lowry was given a spot right out of training camp.  Same with Copp.  If there was no one else for those spots it's because we didn't sign anyone.  In other words they were pencilled in before camp even started.  Not a great idea, IMO.  

I don't necessarily disagree with bringing in Connor and Laine right off the hop but I'm very worried about 1. Ending up like Edmonton and 2. Alienating good veteran players like Wheeler by giving rookies spots they didn't earn and wasting the prime years of veterans' careers while young players "find their way."  We already saw this with Ladd.  He obviously didn't want to be part of the rebuild and it wouldn't be surprising to see other guys wanting out, too.

I know the prevailing wisdom among the fanbase is younger = better and all prospects are better than our current players but in reality it doesn't work that way.

[The Unknown Poster]

Lowry played the latter half of the season for the Jets before starting the season.  So...I wouldnt say he was handed it.  He was a mid-season call up who earned it.  Unless Im mis-remembering but I dont think I am

[Goalie]

Lowry made the team out of camp last season after having a pretty good year prior in St Johns. Lowry struggled this past season but last year he was very good and made it because he was ready.  He wasn't gifted anything. He earned it with his solid 2 way play. He got away from that this year but just cuz he struggled this year doesn't mean he didn't earn a spot last year. 

 

Lowry also is the same age as Scheif so not sure how he's considered 18 19 year old. 

 

He spent a full season in St Johns prior to joining the jets out of camp last season. Lowry isn't a good example to use as he's 23 meaning he was 22 when he made the Jets last season. 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2016 by Goalie

[Atomic]

13 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Lowry played the latter half of the season for the Jets before starting the season.  So...I wouldnt say he was handed it.  He was a mid-season call up who earned it.  Unless Im mis-remembering but I dont think I am

You are.  He played 80 games with the Jets in his first year.

[Atomic]

4 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Lowry made the team out of camp last season after having a pretty good year prior in St Johns. Lowry struggled this past season but last year he was very good and made it because he was ready.  He wasn't gifted anything. He earned it with his solid 2 way play. He got away from that this year but just cuz he struggled this year doesn't mean he didn't earn a spot last year. 

 

Lowry also is the same age as Scheif so not sure how he's considered 18 19 year old. 

It's not so much about the age but about rushing players into the lineup before they are ready.  You see the regression with Lowry and that's a direct result of not making him earn his spot.

[Goalie]

6 minutes ago, Atomic said:

It's not so much about the age but about rushing players into the lineup before they are ready.  You see the regression with Lowry and that's a direct result of not making him earn his spot.

They noticed that and sent him down. He came back and looked better to end the year. He's not gonna put up 15 goals... he might get 10 in a good year. He's not that type of player and it seems most rookies tend to fall back a bit in their 2nd year. Lowry isn't the only example of a rookie struggling after a good rookie year. Sophomore slump for sure but he worked through it. Not bad for a 3rd Rd pick tho. 

 

Do I think he's guaranteed a spot this coming season? Nope. I think he will have to earn it again. If he shows up like he did to start this past year ... he's moose bound again. 

In my opinion.... Adam Lowry is a player who when you get right down to it... he's a guy that's pretty easily replaceable. He's probably a good 4th line center tho. 

Edited May 3, 2016 by Goalie

[HardCoreBlue]

48 minutes ago, Atomic said:

I find it very interesting that the overwhelming narrative when the Jets moved to Winnipeg was that the Thrashers had brought up players too quickly and ruined them (Kane, Burmi, Bogo).  That doesn't seem to be a concern anymore as we rush to get as many 18-20 year olds in the lineup as possible...

It just seems over the last while more and more 18 to 20 year olds are able to make the starting lineups, stick and excel than we've ever seen before.  

Probably a combination of good and bad reasons to explain this.   

[Goalie]

As for ruining players.... some guys need time in the A or in junior. Some don't.  Scheif was somewhat of a reach where he was picked. He needed time. Laine might not. Connor might not. It's all about that player. Each guy is different. Some need 2 3 4 yrs b4 they are ready... some come in right away and are ready. Depends on the player 

Edited May 3, 2016 by Goalie

[Atomic]

12 minutes ago, Goalie said:

As for ruining players.... some guys need time in the A or in junior. Some don't.  Scheif was somewhat of a reach where he was picked. He needed time. Laine might not. Connor might not. It's all about that player. Each guy is different. Some need 2 3 4 yrs b4 they are ready... some come in right away and are ready. Depends on the player 

You're right.  Every guy is different.  I'm just trying to offer an alternative viewpoint.  Seems like the answer to every problem is always "bring up more young guys."  The teams that have done a real rebuild like Chicago or Pittsburgh pick 3-5 guys to build around and then rotate through different supporting veterans and rookies.  If Scheifele, Ehlers, and Trouba grow into the players we expect, then how do you sign guys like Laine and Connor down the line?  There won't be enough cash to go around.  At some point you have to pick a core and say "these are the right guys."

[Goalie]

Well... guys like wheeler Perreault buff little etc won't be here forever. They are in thar transition mode. It's a little early to talk about the future. Cap probably will go up also. Plus I doubt the Jets will pay guys 10 plus million a year like Chicago does for 2 guys. 

[Rich]

10 minutes ago, Atomic said:

You're right.  Every guy is different.  I'm just trying to offer an alternative viewpoint.  Seems like the answer to every problem is always "bring up more young guys."  The teams that have done a real rebuild like Chicago or Pittsburgh pick 3-5 guys to build around and then rotate through different supporting veterans and rookies.  If Scheifele, Ehlers, and Trouba grow into the players we expect, then how do you sign guys like Laine and Connor down the line?  There won't be enough cash to go around.  At some point you have to pick a core and say "these are the right guys."

It is an interesting point to discuss, and it does seem counter intuitive to Chevy's "over ripen" in the AHL quotes.

At this point though, as guys are on ELC's,  we can still afford to see who should actually be in that core going forward.   Scheifele looks like he is going to belong, Ehlers is only one year in, and Trouba has been too up and down to say for sure one way or the other.  Give Scheifele the long term deal and a bridge to Trouba to see what he really has.   

I think the Jets have finally gotten to the point where they have a huge amount of depth in the system that some of their prospects HAVE to be in the AHL next year.  Petan, Copp, Lowry, Dano, De Leo, Armia, Lemieux ....  only room for about 3 of those guys if Connor and Laine (assuming we get Laine) make the team.

And if Laine or Connor don't show in training camp, or struggle during the season, there is 3 - 5 guys itching to take their spots.  All of those guys are on ELC and waiver exempt, so the competition amongst that group should be immense. 

We will be able to pick the best of the bunch to become the core and trade the others away similar to Chicago has done to compliment those core pieces.

Certainly an argument could be made that we could have signed some short term vets to let these guys play for the Moose a bit longer, and I'm not sure the reason we didn't, but it is definitely one of the reasons we were not a playoff team last year.

[The Unknown Poster]

I stand corrected.

[kelownabomberfan]

1 hour ago, Goalie said:

Lowry made the team out of camp last season after having a pretty good year prior in St Johns. Lowry struggled this past season but last year he was very good and made it because he was ready.  He wasn't gifted anything. He earned it with his solid 2 way play. He got away from that this year but just cuz he struggled this year doesn't mean he didn't earn a spot last year. 

 

Lowry also is the same age as Scheif so not sure how he's considered 18 19 year old. 

 

He spent a full season in St Johns prior to joining the jets out of camp last season. Lowry isn't a good example to use as he's 23 meaning he was 22 when he made the Jets last season. 

 

 

I liked what I saw from Lowry in the last 10 - 15 games of the year.  He seemed to have his confidence back, he was hitting guys and he was scoring goals.  Same with Copp.  The team really gelled, especially after Ladd was traded.  I hope they can carry that gel factor into the next season, and Lowry and Copp really come to camp ready to give er this year.  It helps giving them some skilled talent to play with too, instead of pluggers like Peluso and Thorburn.  Copp seemed to have a whole new lease on life playing with Petan and Armia. 

http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/watch-andrew-copp-split-wild-defense-deke-dubynk-for-beautiful-goal/

TSN rated this one of the top ten best goals of 2015-16.

Edited May 3, 2016 by kelownabomberfan

[mbrg]

I'd say Ehlers is the only player they have gambled on when it comes to moving youth into the lineup.  Morrisey has played one game total.  Scheifele was held back for the longest time.

I wouldn't consider Copp as being rushed only because they were very controlling of the situations they put him in - they did not seem to rush his development, instead choosing to gauge his response to those situations and adjusting the dial accordingly.  They did that with Hutchinson the previous season.  It seemed like the logic they used for Copp was 7 minutes a game in the NHL would be just as valuable as 16 minutes a game with the Moose.  As the season went on the minutes and responsibilities increased.  Injuries played a part to be sure.

Lowry's had his down moments at times but I think for the most part he's earned his spot here.  The reasons to keep a kid in the minors are either he physically isn't ready or mentally isn't ready.  Or he isn't good enough.  He's definitely physically ready.  Mentally it appears as if he's battled thru the bad patch he had this season, and overcoming that kind of adversity is generally a good thing.  He gets the two-way aspects of the game and is growing in his role.  I have no problems with him having a spot on this team.

What does this mean for the Jets regarding Connor and #2?  Hard to say.  They really haven't deviated from the plan, and both these guys are going to be part of the long term plan for the Jets, so they aren't going to put them in positions where they will be overwhelmed to the point of damage.  It's not the Jets who are saying these guys will play this year, it's the fans who keep penciling them into lineups.  My guess in early May is the one they feel is most ready gets a spot on the second line and the other gets a spot in the minors.  It's a hunch based on nearly nothing.

[Blueballz]

I don't think it's a case of rushing youngsters into the lineup as it is there not being a clear cut better option.

Chevy isn't about to trade to fill those spots with vets. It's a part of his process. We had vet presence with Wheeler, Ladd, Little, Perrault and Stafford. Seemed as good of a time to ease them into the lineup and weather some growing pains.

Meanwhile guys like Petan, Lipon and Morrisey were kept back and not rushed in because it was obvious they weren't ready.

I trust the coaches won't just throw Connor or Laine or any other youngster into the fire if they feel strongly that it will just backfire on them.

[Rich]

15 minutes ago, Blueballz said:

I don't think it's a case of rushing youngsters into the lineup as it is there not being a clear cut better option.

Chevy isn't about to trade to fill those spots with vets. It's a part of his process. We had vet presence with Wheeler, Ladd, Little, Perrault and Stafford. Seemed as good of a time to ease them into the lineup and weather some growing pains.

Meanwhile guys like Petan, Lipon and Morrisey were kept back and not rushed in because it was obvious they weren't ready.

I trust the coaches won't just throw Connor or Laine or any other youngster into the fire if they feel strongly that it will just backfire on them.

You don't have to trade to fill those spots, you could have signed players like Tlusty and Stempniak to reasonable and short contracts at the end of last season to fill out the bottom part of the roster. 

They made a conscious choice not to.

Also Petan started the year with the Jets, mostly because there was not a better option.  He wasn't ready and was sent back down.  A few of those vets would have been nice at that point as there wasn't a whole lot there.  That lack of depth and experience is a big factor into the season we had.

We also moved Ehlers and Copp into the lineup.  Thats starting the year with 3 rookies with no AHL experience and no real competition they had to beat out for those jobs.

I'm not saying I disagree with those choices moving into last season.  I'm okay with taking a step back for a year if it means moving forward two or three.  Especially now that we are getting Laine or Mathews, but that was never a guarantee.

But those choices are in contrast to one of the tenants Chevy has been preaching, which is to let prospects over ripen in the AHL.  Hopefully we now have the depth to really start doing that.

[Goalie]

In the end they make decisions that are best for the future of the team. Some fans want a winner now... that's not really realistic tho. They need to build a winner and how you do that is giving younger guys chances. Signing vets to 1 yr deals is great and all but when the idea is to look to the future... those vets who actually make no difference in the end are just wasting spots. 

Can't think about today with this team..

 Gotta think about tomorrow. 

And tomorrow now looks a lot brighter. Why? Cuz the kids were given a chance and didn't look out of place. 

Stemp. Tlusty.  That's great if you wanna finish 12 13th 14th from last... but nobody wants that. 

You want a team who will compete year in year out for years and they are building towards that. It's a process tho. It takes time. Signing FAs... it's just delaying what needs to be done. And that is.... building around the high end youth talent. It takes time. But they are definitely on their way. 

[Blueballz]

On Wednesday, May 04, 2016 at 9:04 PM, Rich said:

You don't have to trade to fill those spots, you could have signed players like Tlusty and Stempniak to reasonable and short contracts at the end of last season to fill out the bottom part of the roster. 

They made a conscious choice not to.

Also Petan started the year with the Jets, mostly because there was not a better option.  He wasn't ready and was sent back down.  A few of those vets would have been nice at that point as there wasn't a whole lot there.  That lack of depth and experience is a big factor into the season we had.

We also moved Ehlers and Copp into the lineup.  Thats starting the year with 3 rookies with no AHL experience and no real competition they had to beat out for those jobs.

I'm not saying I disagree with those choices moving into last season.  I'm okay with taking a step back for a year if it means moving forward two or three.  Especially now that we are getting Laine or Mathews, but that was never a guarantee.

But those choices are in contrast to one of the tenants Chevy has been preaching, which is to let prospects over ripen in the AHL.  Hopefully we now have the depth to really start doing that.

Tlusty and Stempniak were rental players and nothing else. What good does it do to sign them to contracts that would not have been cap friendly or worth it for the long term.

Chevy lets players ripen in the AHL if need be. Not the case all the time like with Trouba and Ehlers. Schiefele did that but it was known when we drafted him that'd happen.

[Rich]

15 minutes ago, Blueballz said:

Tlusty and Stempniak were rental players and nothing else. What good does it do to sign them to contracts that would not have been cap friendly or worth it for the long term.

Chevy lets players ripen in the AHL if need be. Not the case all the time like with Trouba and Ehlers. Schiefele did that but it was known when we drafted him that'd happen.

Tlusty - Signed for 1 year @ 800k

Stempniak - Signed a PTO because no one would sign him, flipped that into a 1 year @850k

Yep, both of those sure look like they are not cap friendly and horrible for the long term.   

I have no problems with Trouba or Ehlers starting when they did.

We should not have started the season with both Copp and Petan in the starting lineup.  They were handed those jobs with virtually no competition.  Make the kids earn it in the AHL and take a spot on an injury call up.

Chevy didn't let Petan ripen in the AHL, he had him penciled in at the beginning of last season and he obviously wasn't ready so he got sent down and we really had no backup plan.