Time for a Real GM

[Stickem]

Yes and O'Shea will take Walters with him ....I think Kyle tried his best in the offseason and it looks like his efforts were wasted on a former special teams coach who doesn't know what the hell he's doing...So we pay the price again....Miller better start looking up possible replacements soon for 17'...That's a foregone conclusion.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Stickem
missed word

[17to85]

20 minutes ago, Mike said:

I think Kyle Walters and company bring in a lot more talent than people think. Unfortunately, the criteria being used to evaluate which players we want on our roster (and make no mistake, it's Mike O'Shea who does this) is not hitting the mark.

If that's the case though then the GM needs to put his foot down and tell the coach that sometimes you put an ******* on the team because he's a flat out better player. It still comes down to the GM and for 3 years now this team hasn't been talented enough. We dropped Moore and Denmark in the offseason and replaced them with Dressler and Smith. Now Dressler I liked signing for a lot of reasons, but what's the logic behind Smith? Now we got 2 midgets in the receiving corps who play the same kind of game and our big receiver (Adams) quite frankly doesn't give enough of a **** to be consistent. We haven't seen a rookie receiver come in and make much of an impact until this season which is just flat out unacceptable. I understand moving on from Moore because a guy who got hurt that much is hard to rely on, so bring in Dressler, he's a vet and he showed last night how he can help a team, but changing out Denmark for Smith is just a lateral move at best and really not well thought out. 

Kyle Walters has failed to build a team here and it's on him because he is the one who put everything in place. I don't much like our coordinators either, Both Hall and Lapo are passive to a fault and I think the CFL has moved away from that in general but I believe both those hires come back to a rookie head coach trying to surround himself with some more experience and both those guys are experienced including some head coaching experience. 

[Captain Blue]

2 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

If that's the case though then the GM needs to put his foot down and tell the coach that sometimes you put an ******* on the team because he's a flat out better player. It still comes down to the GM and for 3 years now this team hasn't been talented enough. We dropped Moore and Denmark in the offseason and replaced them with Dressler and Smith. Now Dressler I liked signing for a lot of reasons, but what's the logic behind Smith? Now we got 2 midgets in the receiving corps who play the same kind of game and our big receiver (Adams) quite frankly doesn't give enough of a **** to be consistent. We haven't seen a rookie receiver come in and make much of an impact until this season which is just flat out unacceptable. I understand moving on from Moore because a guy who got hurt that much is hard to rely on, so bring in Dressler, he's a vet and he showed last night how he can help a team, but changing out Denmark for Smith is just a lateral move at best and really not well thought out. 

Kyle Walters has failed to build a team here and it's on him because he is the one who put everything in place. I don't much like our coordinators either, Both Hall and Lapo are passive to a fault and I think the CFL has moved away from that in general but I believe both those hires come back to a rookie head coach trying to surround himself with some more experience and both those guys are experienced including some head coaching experience. 

Why is it everyone's fault except O'Shea and Willy's? This just sounds like a lot of excuses for the both of them. "Its not us, its just literally everyone else around us."

Maybe they just all suck.

[B-F-F-C]

There is talent on this team.  Saying there isn't is just someone trying to push their own agenda.   A perfect example is limiting the Stamps to 1 offensive TD in the 2nd half after losing 3 starters in the secondary.  Are there positions we could improve? Sure but I can't think of a single position on the team where we have a absolute plug as a player.  

The problem is we're not utilizing our "best" players to their fullest potential.  Andrew Harris was signed and Lapo said that he'd be a key piece to our offensive scheme.  However, we're 4 games in and he's  a forgotten guy.   Last night I saw Harris open multiple times coming out of the backfield and Willy didn't even look his way.    

I had such high hopes for Lapo 3.0 but it's becoming evident that it's no different than vers. 1.0 and 2.0. Fix the offence and this team is probably 8-10 or 9-9.    

 

[Mike]

4 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

If that's the case though then the GM needs to put his foot down and tell the coach that sometimes you put an ******* on the team because he's a flat out better player. It still comes down to the GM and for 3 years now this team hasn't been talented enough. We dropped Moore and Denmark in the offseason and replaced them with Dressler and Smith. Now Dressler I liked signing for a lot of reasons, but what's the logic behind Smith? Now we got 2 midgets in the receiving corps who play the same kind of game and our big receiver (Adams) quite frankly doesn't give enough of a **** to be consistent. We haven't seen a rookie receiver come in and make much of an impact until this season which is just flat out unacceptable. I understand moving on from Moore because a guy who got hurt that much is hard to rely on, so bring in Dressler, he's a vet and he showed last night how he can help a team, but changing out Denmark for Smith is just a lateral move at best and really not well thought out. 

Kyle Walters has failed to build a team here and it's on him because he is the one who put everything in place. I don't much like our coordinators either, Both Hall and Lapo are passive to a fault and I think the CFL has moved away from that in general but I believe both those hires come back to a rookie head coach trying to surround himself with some more experience and both those guys are experienced including some head coaching experience. 

Kyle Walters signed a big play receiver this offseason.

Mike O'Shea cut him. The only reason we realized it is because some other team gave him a chance.

Kind of makes you wonder how many other players Mike O'Shea has cut that were mistakes.

[Dragon37]

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

Still blows me away that people are on the coaches or the qb when clearly the problem is the guy building the team. All those free agent receivers and it's just shuffling the deck chairs because we are still using Darvin Adams like he is a #2 when the reality is he is a replaceable #4 that every team has a couple of (except us, after 3 years Walters finally found a rookie who might be better than him). 

He needs to go and unfortunately he's going to take Mike O'Shea down with him. That's the biggest shame of it all. 

It is absolutely sickening to see back to back first down plays in a series lose yards on a straight forward hand off up the middle. That's guys getting their asses kicked. It is sickening to see the qb hit a receiver in the chest with a pass and then the ball hit the ground. This team needs someone who can actually build a team and not just play fantasy football on free agent day. 

Are you related to MOS? You freakishly unwavering faith in him. More often than not this team is completely unprepared to play a game. I swear to God Walters could load the team with all-stars and they would suck. Yeah Walters needs to go. Yeah most of the talent he has found isn't that good. I freaking said this from the start. He had a position of some authority to do something when he was Assistant GM and he did nothing. Hell the guy is supposed to be some CIS guru, they hired him for that six years ago, and he still hasn't produced a decent line-up of Canucks. All that aside, he has given MOS some decent players and coaches to work with and MOS still can't get them to play a game resembling football.

Whatever excuse you and MOS want to use is fine but stop trying to sell it to the rest of us because it is a hot stinking load of BS. MOS is utter hopeless as an HC it is as plain as day.

[17to85]

38 minutes ago, Mike said:

Kyle Walters signed a big play receiver this offseason.

Mike O'Shea cut him. The only reason we realized it is because some other team gave him a chance.

Kind of makes you wonder how many other players Mike O'Shea has cut that were mistakes.

Then the GM shouldn't be so firmly in his coaches corner. 

[Bigblue204]

4 minutes ago, Dragon37 said:

Are you related to MOS? You freakishly unwavering faith in him. More often than not this team is completely unprepared to play a game. I swear to God Walters could load the team with all-stars and they would suck. Yeah Walters needs to go. Yeah most of the talent he has found isn't that good. I freaking said this from the start. He had a position of some authority to do something when he was Assistant GM and he did nothing. Hell the guy is supposed to be some CIS guru, they hired him for that six years ago, and he still hasn't produced a decent line-up of Canucks. All that aside, he has given MOS some decent players and coaches to work with and MOS still can't get them to play a game resembling football.

Whatever excuse you and MOS want to use is fine but stop trying to sell it to the rest of us because it is a hot stinking load of BS. MOS is utter hopeless as an HC it is as plain as day.

He did load this team with all stars this off season lol.

[Mike]

6 minutes ago, Dragon37 said:

Are you related to MOS? You freakishly unwavering faith in him. More often than not this team is completely unprepared to play a game. I swear to God Walters could load the team with all-stars and they would suck. Yeah Walters needs to go. Yeah most of the talent he has found isn't that good. I freaking said this from the start. He had a position of some authority to do something when he was Assistant GM and he did nothing. Hell the guy is supposed to be some CIS guru, they hired him for that six years ago, and he still hasn't produced a decent line-up of Canucks. All that aside, he has given MOS some decent players and coaches to work with and MOS still can't get them to play a game resembling football.

Whatever excuse you and MOS want to use is fine but stop trying to sell it to the rest of us because it is a hot stinking load of BS. MOS is utter hopeless as an HC it is as plain as day.

If the coaching is so bad that even our all-stars underperform, how do you know the new talent is bad? Maybe they're being brought down as well.

PS - if you think our Canuck talent is weak, you should look again. Did you see Jones/Morgan/Loffler out there last night? All depth. All young. All Canadian.

All very respectable performances.

[Dragon37]

2 minutes ago, Mike said:

If the coaching is so bad that even our all-stars underperform, how do you know the new talent is bad? Maybe they're being brought down as well.

PS - if you think our Canuck talent is weak, you should look again. Did you see Jones/Morgan/Loffler out there last night? All depth. All young. All Canadian.

All very respectable performances.

It is bad but it also is not where it should be after six years in charge of finding it. That being said your comments are fair Mike. Far more of the burden lies below Walters right now. The problem I have is that you really cannot absolve Walters of the wreck this team is either because he was the one who hired MOS in the first place. Can we trust him to do the job properly next time around? Or is part of the problem even higher?

That can be left for now but RIGHT NOW they need to make changes to try and salvage something from this season. I am not a fan of firing coaches in season but MOS is just sucking the life from this team in all sorts of ways.

[Old Bomber Fan]

It sure sounds like a lot of people are frustrated with the product, however developed, we have been witnessing here in Winnipeg for too long a number of years. They have every right to be however I think, we, the fans see the symptoms  but not necessary the solutions nor the problems. This is an organization that has a lot more problems than we see. The signing of Willy to a huge contract for 2016 with little justification from his past play is an example. That signing alone suggests that from the top down and that includes the BOD either cannot evaluate performance, are blind or do not assess and take definitive action when someone suggests such a signing whomever it might be.

The play of the players, even though we have signed what, 8 CFL allstars in the past 2 years of free agency, do not play up to expectations or again to past performances, then that would suggest I think that they are not held accountable, there is no consequence to poor play and they are comfortable with playing at that level rather than striving to up the quality of their game.

The actual style of play has not changed in what 5 or 6 years on either side of the ball. Our defense in the past were always hung out to dry because they were on the field too long and by the 4th quarter were a beaten group. The time of possession was always tilted in a large way and not in their favour.

The offense could not or would not generate a running game, a long passing game and relied on YAC. This while incorporated in the other two aspects would certainly be helpful, it is not the end all to be all in making an offense productive. And frankly this type of dink and dunk offense has been in Winnipeg for a number of years - we could but am not certain, go back to the Berry days were at least we threw the ball downfield.

The special teams remains a question mark even though we are supposed to have the best ST coordinator in MOS. For half a year it was something however for the remaining time of his tenure it isn't great. Now I realize he hasn't taken over but I am pretty sure he is most influential in this area of the game.

The defense and this bend and break philosophy doesn't work any longer in the CFL. This has been proven time and time again not only with our team but others who try to implement it. Far too often the give on the receiver is far too wide especially when it is second and long for the opposition. They are not passionate or energized and if they are they certainly don't play like it.

Coaching, players, scouting, management, all play a part in developing a successful team. When one component doesn't do it's job the other factors are also hurt and consequently defeat becomes a recurring theme. Unfortunately this is the Bombers.

How to change? I don't have an answer but I do believe you cannot keep blowing the entire thing up every 2 years to make it better. But one thing that might help is to get our collective heads out of the sand and realize what we have, analyze what we have to do to make it better in all aspects and get on with it.

I wish them luck but as I have said before, I am certainly glad I did not renew my season tickets. This team is not moving forward or for that matter treading water, it is slowing sinking yet again with no life vests in site. 

[WBBFanWest]

2 hours ago, Rich said:

I've got PowerPoint and Whiteboard presentations.   Will that do?

That's good, but try riding into your interview on a motorcycle.  I know that nothing screams "COMPETENCY" like riding into your interview on a Harley.  Nothing but good will come of it.

[do or die]

The pity is that watching last nite......Walters draft this year is looking pretty good.  The problem has been lack of followup in recruiting - no impact receiver, no stud import OL guy, among the other things we needed.

This OL is still a far way from solved with Chung and Goossen still in the ole learning curve.....Neufeld looked terrible before he got hurt again or whatever - this guy is so overrated in some quarters it hurts....and of course no depth.  Run blocking is atrocious either on 1st down or 2nd/3rd and short.  Willy has taken too much punishment, and has turned into Captain Checkoff.....

...and our downfield blocking is inept, as well.

[Tracker]

38 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Then the GM shouldn't be so firmly in his coaches corner. 

The GM is not going to publicly throw his coach under the bus, just as the coach will not trash a given player in public unless all else has failed and that player is pretty much out the door anyways.

Edited July 22, 2016 by tracker

[Tracker]

25 minutes ago, Dragon37 said:

It is bad but it also is not where it should be after six years in charge of finding it. That being said your comments are fair Mike. Far more of the burden lies below Walters right now. The problem I have is that you really cannot absolve Walters of the wreck this team is either because he was the one who hired MOS in the first place. Can we trust him to do the job properly next time around? Or is part of the problem even higher?

That can be left for now but RIGHT NOW they need to make changes to try and salvage something from this season. I am not a fan of firing coaches in season but MOS is just sucking the life from this team in all sorts of ways.

While Walters is not blameless, we have too many instances of poor players being kept and played too long, or players who were not good enough here but have done well elsewhere. That has to fall on O'Shea. Moreover, if O'Shea chose his assistants, he has not done well there, either. If a very good GM candidate is available, then Walters should be gone as well, but right now, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this forum, O'Shea has failed both the players and the fans.

[Goalie]

I don't think it's completely on O'shea. I think it's to easy to blame O'shea in all this. I think the O's struggles are on a OLINE who isn't very good, mixed with play calling that leaves a lot to be desired and receivers who just aren't getting open consistently. I'm not convinced these O players are being put in the best position to succeed. I'm not sure that's on Oshea or if it's on Lapolice or the Oline or the Receivers or just everyone. This team really sucks tho, there is a problem, It's not just 1 guy either, it's never one guy... I don't give a crap if they fire O'shea or whoever, i just don't think firing MOS is gonna change anything at all.... I don't see how it could, i don't see how lapo who can't get the O to conistently move the ball or Hall who can't get his D to stop playing so damn SAAWWWFFFT changes things if they are head coach. 

 

Drew Willy hasn't been very good either but last night when Nichols went in, outside of that 1 drive where he made 2 throws, he had the same problems WIlly had... it's scheme issue, it's a player issue, it's a combination of many many things. 

Edited July 22, 2016 by Goalie

[Ripper]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I think Kyle Walters and company bring in a lot more talent than people think. Unfortunately, the criteria being used to evaluate which players we want on our roster (and make no mistake, it's Mike O'Shea who does this) is not hitting the mark.

You touched on something important. Example... Jennings on riders neg list, Cortez couldn't remember him from the mini camp so he isn't invited to the main camp?? Cortez couldn't remember him?? More like George didn't care because he didn't like rookies anyway and likely knew he wouldn't be with the riders by the time Jennings made it to the team as a starter. People in the position to hurt the team further with poor roster decisions can cause a lot of grief and leave holes in the future roster.

[Nolby]

I guess since winnipeg is pulling people off the tsn panel, why don't we ring up Dunigan. ..

[bearpants]

Just now, Nolby said:

I guess since winnipeg is pulling people off the tsn panel, why don't we ring up Dunigan. ..

HC - Dunigan

OC - Climie

DC - Shultz? (I don't think there's a defensive guy on the panel)

QB coach - Milt

GM - Farhan Lalji

AGM - Rod Smith

[WBBFanWest]

33 minutes ago, bearpants said:

HC - Dunigan

OC - Climie

DC - Shultz? (I don't think there's a defensive guy on the panel)

QB coach - Milt

GM - Farhan Lalji

AGM - Rod Smith

If you're going to do that then for god's sake hire Rod Black for something, anything, to get him off the air.

Edited July 22, 2016 by WBBFanWest

[Logan007]

Tank them both.  Walters and O'Shea are both at fault.  Bringing in 1 big play receiver is great and all, but how many new QB's did they bring in this year or last year?  1.  How many International Olinemen did they sign that were big and good?  How many big defensive players did they bring in?

Yeah O'Shea probably cut a couple of potentially good players, and his coaching is obviously under par, but they are both to blame.  Walters does do some good, but he's nowhere where we need him to be as far as being the main GM.  He's good at the Cdn talent but his recruiting skills end there.

[wbbfan]

11 hours ago, Floyd said:

No Boundary WR threat, rookie Centre, No DB depth, No Quarterback = Time for a GM with legit scouting connections

Three years of cutting guys before we really have a replacement has hurt this team... six years if you include Mack's legacy

Adams was injured weeks before we cut Bucknor... just sayin'.  

Add Bryant and cut January.  Add Picard and cut Morley...  this is treading water not building depth.  We want a great OL with a dirt cheap right tackle.

Chris Greaves and then Jace Daniels were our LG of the future and then dumped...  Corey Lewis, Devin Tyler, etc etc etc

Are Mayo, Smith and Davis ANY different than Moore, Denmark and Veltung?

What makes 'insert name here' any better than Brett Carter?  Maybe put time into a young CDN receiver instead of a revolving door of hacks....

Kuale, Banks, Shell, Harris, Alexander...  what is the strategy with signing aging mediocre players - sign Keon Raymond or Brandon Isaac if you want a vet presence... oh wait, they are probably not league minimum.

NI OL depth... Jeff Keeping, Marc Parenteau, Thomas Griffiths, Gord Hinse...  cheap crap.

Biggest battle in camp?  Backup linebacker.

The backbreaker is re-signing Drew Willy for no reason.  Now the team is chained to him.  He will start next game.

Mack over-valued his US scouting... but Walters is over-valuing his CDN scouting.

 

 

we have tons and tons of talent at wr. Our centre started what 9 games last year at centre? not a rookie. We are down like 5 starting dbs and it still is better then the terrible soft deep cover they are forced to play. We have qbing, we dont have a mega star that will carry the team but those are few and far between. You dont need one to win though you need a team that works well to win.

Your forgetting and writing off how horrible this team was under mack and the utter disaster he left. Nearly no NI talent, completely rebuilt in to the strength of the team now. Weve got the pieces, tons of pieces and talent. This isnt an air lift and pray team. Weve seen lots of those in the past 20 years. This team has a ton of proven talent that is under performing. Schemes and coaching is to blame. And an OL that is the most under performing of the bunch.

[Dragon37]

58 minutes ago, Goalie said:

I don't think it's completely on O'shea. I think it's to easy to blame O'shea in all this. I think the O's struggles are on a OLINE who isn't very good, mixed with play calling that leaves a lot to be desired and receivers who just aren't getting open consistently. I'm not convinced these O players are being put in the best position to succeed. I'm not sure that's on Oshea or if it's on Lapolice or the Oline or the Receivers or just everyone. This team really sucks tho, there is a problem, It's not just 1 guy either, it's never one guy... I don't give a crap if they fire O'shea or whoever, i just don't think firing MOS is gonna change anything at all.... I don't see how it could, i don't see how lapo who can't get the O to conistently move the ball or Hall who can't get his D to stop playing so damn SAAWWWFFFT changes things if they are head coach. 

 

Drew Willy hasn't been very good either but last night when Nichols went in, outside of that 1 drive where he made 2 throws, he had the same problems WIlly had... it's scheme issue, it's a player issue, it's a combination of many many things. 

I look at it this way. Be it Lapolice, Hall, or whoever the buck stops at MOS. He is the final say and he had input on those guys and who is on the field and when. The teams suck game in and game out? That is all on the coach.

 

[Goalie]

1 minute ago, Dragon37 said:

I look at it this way. Be it Lapolice, Hall, or whoever the buck stops at MOS. He is the final say and he had input on those guys and who is on the field and when. The teams suck game in and game out? That is all on the coach.

 

I don't disagree. Last night was interesting tho, we get within 8 points and the next drive, calgary marches at will and puts the dagger in us, the D played really good the second half but then folded and played soft when it mattered, that's on Hall.. the O's problems, that's on Lapolice and Willy for the most part. I'm not saying MOS isn't to blame and the buck doesn't stop with him cuz it certainly does but naming LAPO or Hall coach right now would also be rewarding failure. 

[Doublezero]

Met Walters only once and found him to be completely full of himself, arrogant and condescending, which was a bit of a surprise considering he was a forgettable CFL player and quite inconsequential coach before rising to his current lofty position. My criticism isn't based on that one negative interpersonal experience however. My criticism would be based on the cumulative totality of negative experiences I have had as a Bomber fan watching Walters-managed teams consistently lose since mid 2013. His W-L record so far is 15 wins 39 losses I believe. No doubt it will be 15-40 next week. That fact in itself should more than qualify him for a one-way ticket to CIS football, Golds Gym manager, bag boy or whatever.